Am I Morally Or Legally Obligated?

[Crystal]

The point is, she drug up an old post, in order to make HER point. It's like bringing up an argument you had with your spouse or family member two years later, when that old argument has nothing to do with what's happening now.

She SHOULD have posted a new subject arguing her point about breast feeding.

I am not completely disagreeing with either side....but, THIS is tacky, and weird.

Oh, I agree about the old post, that's why I said " Whether or not an old thread should have been pulled up in order to discuss it is questionable, but, honestly, if you are going to be an "in your face" breastfeeder, then you should be prepared to defend yourself when questioned about the "probability" that narcotics are being passed to your children through your breastmilk

[frgsonmysox]

Okay I will ask again:
How do the powerful narcotics you spoke of taking during two pregnancies affect babies in utero and does it pass through breastmilk?

I don't need to know what you are taking. If it treats horrible pain as you said and its significant enough to make you question whether you should disclose to parents and the State in prelicensing physical exams then im safe to assume it is a controlled substance for a reason...

How does taking this medication affect your decision to do breastfeeding and even more significantly extended breastfeeding beyond the first year when an average or above average child like yours could consume significant nutrition via healthy foods such as organic whole foods without narcotics.

With your consistent emphasis on NATURAL im wondering how this would fit into your scheme. It just doesn't make sense. Why would you be willing to assume even a moderate risk when the option for your one and three year old could be no risk at all?

I answered your question. I didn't start taking these particular medications (and yes, they are heavy duty narcotics) without talking to multiple doctors, IBCLCs, and my childs pediatrician. Every single one of them agreed - the amount that enters my breastmilk is so minute, that it's STILL healthier and more nutritious than formula (which is full of a lot worse things than a minute dose of narcotics). I worked extremely closely with my OB, MFM, and pain doctor during each of my pregnancies to minimize risk and exposure to the baby, and never once had any of my babies born "addicted". They were born full term (except my oldest child, who lo and behold I wasn't on pain meds then - I was extremely careful about what I put in my body and he was still 5 weeks early. Correlation does not equal causation), a good weight for MY babies. In fact my last two births were two of my heaviest at 6 lbs 6 oz, and 6 lbs, 10.5 oz. My non-medicated babies were all 5 lbers.

Do you really think my 3 year old doesn't eat FOOD? Even my 13 month old eats solids at times. Nursing is an additional food, and a huge comfort to my 3 year old, and my 13 month olds main source of comfort and food.

As for the bolded - I don't get much of a choice when it comes to pain meds. The ones I'm on I'm on because I'm nursing and because we want another child. There are better meds I could be on, ones that would work a lot more effectively, but we made the choice to not use those because they present greater risk to the child. So yes, I made THAT choice. My other two choices could be

1) Not take any pain medication. Oh how I would love that to be a possibility. Truly. You have no idea how flipping mind numbing being in massive pain every day is. How much attention it takes. I have to weight everything I do with how much I'm going to have to pay for it later. I've already had two wrists fused, my elbow is permanently bent and dislocated (and has been for nearly 5 years), my ankles are beginning to go and may need to be fused, and just this year alone my hips, knees, toes, shoulders, and fingers have gotten worse. I do everything I can to slow the progression, to overcome my obstacles, and to be an inspiration to others who also live with this absolutely awful disorder. Every day I dislocate or sublex multiple joints. As a former nurse you should be aware of how painful that is. Do you think you could live like that, be FUNCTIONAL, without pain medication?

2) Not nurse. Do you think we didn't discuss this? We talked to numerous DOCTORS nanny. They all said the same thing - nursing while taking these narcotics is safer and better for our child than formula. Have you looked at the ingredient list in formula? I may not be as old as you are nanny, but I think thats a good thing. You are too stuck in your ways and refuse to see how things have changed. I'm studying to help other women be able to breastfeed. Part of that is knowing medications that are okay, pretty okay, and not okay with nursing. At the end of the day, this is still better. And my kids pediatricians see no issues with any of the kids that would be a result of this. When YOU study breastfeeding please then come back and keep asking me the same questions I've answered now at least twice. This is beyond wanting to know information. You aren't used to someone standing up to you, I get it. You should get over it though.

...unbelievable. This is a personal attack thinly disguised as "curiosity" or "concern." I can't believe this is allowed to go on.

I suspect because it's nanny.

I'm trying to get to the heart of "it's about my baby and my babies right to nutrition"

I don't believe public breastfeeding with full breast exposure is about a babies nutrition.

I don't believe that exposing both breasts over the shirt during an interview while feeding a one year old and nearly three year old in front of total stranger day care parents is about nutrition.

I don't believe the photo of the woman tied to a tree branch hanging upside down with a baby at her breast was about nutrition.

I don't believe the Time magazine pic of the one month shy of four years of age kid standing on a stool to breast feed is about nutrition.

I KNOW my sons WAY too close encounter with a 40 year old womans breast at the Thanksgiving dinner table wasn't about a toddlers nutrition.

Here we have a concrete example where the nutrition of the breast milk is being questioned ESPECIALLY with children who are perfectly capable of eating a balanced healthy diet.

I'm asking... how is this about nutrition? How is about being natural?

I believe a lot of these issues are really truly about the MOTHER and what the MOTHER wants.

She wants to expose her breasts to unsuspecting strangers. She wants to promote her beliefs even at the expense or highly possible expense of others including but not limited to her own children.

All of this under the big umbrella of MY BAYYYYYYYYYYBEEEEE and my BAYBEEES right to EAT.

I'm suspicious and I'm questioning. The OP can answer if she wishes or not. To say it's personal is rediculous. One of the highest positions of exposing the world (litterally) to full breasts during feedings is to EDUCATE. So I'm asking for an education and not in a thinly disguised way. Right out there ... right in your face... just like what happened to my kid... Like it or not... I have the right to ask.

You aren't me, and you aren't my kids, so who are YOU to tell ME what is about nutrition?!

While there are often times that I do not agree with Nan, I have to say, this time I do. The OP has vehemently defended her position as an AP practicing, extended breastfeeding champion. Therefore, by doing so, she opens herself up to questioning when she posts about being heavily medicated on a daily basis. Whether or not an old thread should have been pulled up in order to discuss it is questionable, but, honestly, if you are going to be an "in your face" breastfeeder, then you should be prepared to defend yourself when questioned about the "probability" that narcotics are being passed to your children through your breastmilk. ESPECIALLY when you state that your sole purpose for breastfeeding is about your child's nutrition......if that's truly the case, then the OP would recognize that it would be BETTER nutrition, especially for her 3 year old, to be on a different "diet". Even the OP, in her most recent response, details the difference in her older children's development "pre-medicated" and her younger children's development after beginning her pain med schedule. There is a CLEAR difference, from what I read above, so WHY would one continue breastfeeding well into the third year of life if one KNOWS there have been significant differences in the development of the children????

The OP shared the info about the narcotics, therefore, I think it is fair game that Nan asked her about it.

What is the clear difference? There is actually NO difference, unless you mean speech delays, which all of my kids have had.

I once read a story about a gorilla in captivity who had a baby and trampled it to death, after dealing with its "crying" over hunger.

The keepers realized that the mom gorilla had never learned how to nurse. They got her pregnant again (which I have a moral dilemma with, but still...)

This time they brought in nursing women every day to sit in front of the glass and just nurse. They sat there and nursed, that's it.

Lo and behold, when the gorilla had her second baby, she put it to her breast immediately, and all was well.

While nursing is "natural," it's also a learned behavior, biologically.

I always tell new moms this. Nursing is natural but it's not easy. It's like sex. Sex is natural, but if you based your entire sexual experience off of your first time you'd probably be celibate. It takes time, and effort, and a lot of work to make nursing work, and then it is easy and second nature.

[Crystal]

NEITHER Nan or Frogs has complained to a mod/admin about feeling offended or insulted or have asked for the thread to be closed.

I think since there ARE others here who want to be educated about one side or the other, then the conversation should continue as is.

When people start to automatically move away from anything heated, then everyone becomes a loser as no more information can be shared and that's sad.

Also, the minute Nan started a separate thread to discuss/debate this topic further, someone would have called that mean or insulting. Continuing a conversation within a thread that ignited the question in the first place was fine in my opinion. Yeah, been there, done that. Had Nan started a new thread it would have been an all out war! ::


YOU may view it that way, but again, neither Nan or Frogs has contacted a mod or Admin to complain about the situation.

Neither Nan or Frogs has asked for the thread(s) to be closed or locked.

[frgsonmysox]

For the record - I've been someone who enjoys a debate, and a good conversation, as well as someone who doesn't back down for 6 years now. Ever since I stopped letting people walk all over me, change my mind FOR me, and tell me how I should and shouldn't be I have become extremely devoted to not backing down.

I won't contact a mod, because I am a big girl and I can hold my own. I do think nanny wants nothing more than to try to insult, belittle, or devalue my opinion on things. I also think nanny knows she can get away with it.

[MyAngels]

I think both Nan and Frogs have an air about them that they think their way is best and that's the end of it. The reality is, they both make great points and they both do what is best for themselves, their children, their families and their businesses - just as all of us do - and need to agree to disagree.

Agreed!

The point is, she drug up an old post, in order to make HER point. It's like bringing up an argument you had with your spouse or family member two years later, when that old argument has nothing to do with what's happening now.

Unfortunately, when you post something on the internet it lives forever. Once you post something you have to live with it, well, forever.

[Willow]

I think both Nan and Frogs have an air about them that they think their way is best and that's the end of it. The reality is, they both make great points and they both do what is best for themselves, their children, their families and their businesses - just as all of us do - and need to agree to disagree.

I do many things that would probably horrify many (if not all) of the posters on here. The difference is, I don't talk about these things because I know I would get flamed. :: There IS a big difference between educating people and just having a down right know-it-all attitude. There is also a difference between being curious and just being down right facetious. I think we're seeing both of these behaviors from both of these women.

[frgsonmysox]

Agreed!



Unfortunately, when you post something on the internet it lives forever. Once you post something you have to live with it, well, forever.

this is true. Things live on the internet forever, and in fact if you google my screen name you'll find a lot under it! I have no issues with being truthful or upfront about myself personally. That doesn't mean when someone drags it back up they aren't being a bitch doing it.

I come across a lot more aggressive and loud spoken online than I do in person. My friends used to always tell me that I was too much of a pushover, let people walk all over me, and I avoided conflict like the plague. I stopped doing that after I got hurt time after time. So I may seem aggressive but I don't believe there is only ONE way to do anything. I have never argued that someone shouldn't do something, just to research it, why *I* don't do it, or to inform the parents first (CIO). Never once did I say anyone was evil or awful for CIO, but I am told time and time again how stupid AP is, and how no one could possibly do it long term. So when I react to those comments it's to show that there IS another side. This board is way to one sided, and it needs more people who think differently about things and are willing to say so!

[Willow]

This board is way to one sided, and it needs more people who think differently about things and are willing to say so!

I couldn't disagree more, and have no clue how you've drawn that conclusion.

There are plenty of APer's here. Plenty who breastfeed (most? and the ones who were physically unable still acknowledge the value). Plenty who co-sleep/slept. Plenty who don't believe in CIO. Plenty who are baby wearers. Plenty who cloth diaper (several I've seen that even carry that over to their daycare kids). Plenty who homeschool. Plenty who feed organic/veggie. There are loads of crunchies in general here and we all discuss those issues frequently.

For whatever reason you keep pointing out you're such a rarity by doing and touching on topics no one else will touch, and I don't understand why :confused:

[frgsonmysox]

I'm not saying I'm a rarity by talking about these, but I see a lot of people who feel the same way I do get driven off and stop posting here. These people have told me that they feel this board is one sided as well. I'm not the only one who thinks it. I think this board needs to be more diverse so people DON'T get scared off from it, regardless of what they believe.

[bunnyslippers]

As a person who also lives with a chronic illness that requires strong and toxic medication, I can understand the impact medication has on your choices in regards to child bearing and nursing. It is a tremendously difficult decision to make, and it is something that requires a great deal of diligence and education.

With that being said, I need to emphasize that choosing formula for your child is not a BAD choice. I was never given the option of breast feeding, due to my own medical issues and medications. Whenever I discussed my desire to breast feed with doctors or specialists, I was assured repeatedly that formula-fed infants are just fine. My two boys are healthy, strong, smart young men. They were not harmed by formula, and did not suffer because I did not breast feed. When the pro-breast feeding crowd gets going, I find myself feeling insulted. I have had pro-breast feeding mothers get very offensive with me because I did not breastfeed. These women did not know the reason I did not breast feed, and often lectured me as to what I was doing to harm my baby. For me, that was hurtful and mean. I did what I personally HAD to do for my family. Without my toxic medications, I would die.

Please be kind to one another. Heated debates are fine, and important. But please also remember that every person makes choices based on their own personal needs and desires, and that now everyone feels the same about every issue. Don't cram your agenda, whatever it is, down people's throats. You never know what has led to a personal decision.

[Holiday Park]

Nannyd so let me get this straight ...
You were saying toddler (or lets go as far as talking about a preschooler) consuming plenty of very healthy foods (like any other non nursing child's healthy diet) AND ALSO happens to consume breast milk has a less healthy nutrition compared to the child who has the same diet but without breastmilk? The breast milk is a healthy suppliment full of good stuff!
If anything, that child who is drinking mommies (or even donor milk) milk is at a better advantage!
I am defending breastmilk as being healthy for any childs age . This is coming from someone who disagrees with the OP posts and who is not ap and usually enjoys and agrees with nannyd's posts. As a lsctavist and extended breastfeeding advocate I cant sit back and not say anything. I am still nursing my 18 month old. Its not as often and he eats full meals of table food and everything but if he wants to nurse until he is 4, that is ok by me! same for if we are in public . people need to be more educated on the nutrtional value of breastmilk. If there are problems and the mom tries her best and fails I AM glsd formuls is there as a last resort. For the Person above who had her placenta still inside het, after a c section,and the baby was born early::
Having part of the placenta left , was your biggest reason you couldnt make milk. The baby being pre mature was probably equal of an impact due to very likely having latch issues,low mudcle tone,tounge tie,

[Evansmom]

I'm not saying I'm a rarity by talking about these, but I see a lot of people who feel the same way I do get driven off and stop posting here. These people have told me that they feel this board is one sided as well. I'm not the only one who thinks it. I think this board needs to be more diverse so people DON'T get scared off from it, regardless of what they believe.

Why do you think my post count is so low? I'm afraid of commenting on things on this board bc I've seen other who share my view get bullied off. And im bit the only one. Not everyone has super thick skin like some of the rest of us.

[Willow]

I'm not saying I'm a rarity by talking about these, but I see a lot of people who feel the same way I do get driven off and stop posting here. These people have told me that they feel this board is one sided as well. I'm not the only one who thinks it. I think this board needs to be more diverse so people DON'T get scared off from it, regardless of what they believe.

See now that's just weird to me.

I don't see how I am any different than you as a mother (with the exception of being physically unable to nurse my children for an extended period of time due to hormonal imbalances) and I've never gotten that impression.

There has been debate as to what extent AP can be carried out in a daycare setting, and discussions about how when carried out in extreme and inappropriate ways how it can be detrimental to a child's development but other than that I've never felt any sort of chastised or alone in my beliefs here.


I often see you make remarks like your above in threads like you are totally alone in your belief system, but where there is clearly already expressed and existing support for the exact same things you're saying.

I wonder if it's just a matter of perception that you're missing that you're largely preaching to the choir here?

[Willow]

Why do you think my post count is so low? I'm afraid of commenting on things on this board bc I've seen other who share my view get bullied off. And im bit the only one. Not everyone has super thick skin like some of the rest of us.

I'm genuinely curious what beliefs you're afraid of expressing and commenting on?


If people are educated and confident in their choices I don't understand the hesitation. If someone doesn't like what you have to say so what! You are still entitled to speak your peace and explain your reasoning like anyone else can!

[Holiday Park]

the drugs, and other factors,the odds were against you. I understand you had to do what you had to. But please know (you can researchthis yourself) it wasnt the c srction tself or drugs (althou pgh the are factors) but the *placenta* situation that did . Ive had 4 sections and 2 babies with latch issues ,one was in icu. the biggest reason my supply goes down is not enough demand. . I agree, there nee be more education on how t breastfeed and deal with other issues to make it work like with surgery,icu etc etc
Thats why I am glad to see more education on this.