Tell Me about Your First Time

[Alwaysgreener]

I really thinking I need to term this family. I put SA-DCB (5) in time out for swearing again and he looked at me with a very mad face and said "I do not want to be in time out" - I also got "I do not like it here" "I do not want a DCP"

Anyways, I gave him 2 choices. Either sit down or we were going inside so he could stand in the corner. He stared at me with that angry face, did not move. So I called everyone to the porch and into the house. Told him to go wash his hands first before he headed to the corner, he stood in the bathroom, so I helped him wash his hands and walked him to the corner.
Oh I told him that he will not disrespect me in my home.

That was Monday. Today, while eating his snack, we were talking I caught him rolling his eyes. I found it to be odd. Then it was time for him to head out side when, I told him to get his jacket. He "did not want to wear" "mom did not pack it" when I said, then no outside he says "wait let me look" as he rolled his eyes. Time out again for lying and rolling your eyes.

I have a feeling that the "eye roll" is him doing as he was told by his parents, even though he does not agree with me.

Now he is the oldest of 3. Them finding care for all three with out going to the center and paying double, is nearly impossible currently for where we live. (I know not my problem.) However, I only really want to term him but I can see DCM being upset and not sure how to go about terming. DO I term all or just DCB. DCG is DD playmate but she will adapt. The yDCB is weaning AM nap and I do not want to start over there. I need financial to fill only one of the 3 spots before term just in case I term all or DCM pulls the other 2 after term.

What to do? just him or all 3. How would you do it?
What was your first term like?

[daycare]

your headline had my eyes popping out I couldn't read the rest....

so funny


I will go back and read now
::::::::

[daycare]

I don't want to sound mean, but some of this sounds harsh.'
The swearing, I get, but don't put him in the corner.

I would tell him those words are no ok and they are not nice. let him sit out and think of better words to use. when you come back to him you an tell him that the swear words are hurtful and make you feel very sad. Then tell him what he can do when he feels frustrated like he wants to swear. Give him words he can use. It sounds like he really wants some attention and just may have a hard time letting down his walls and trusting an adult.

I have never had a kid swear before, but i have had a child that sounded like this that walked around angry at life. He is a doll now and one of my favs.

as for the jacket, I would not fight a kid on that. is it really worth it to fight a child to wear a jacket? he may not really be cold. I would tell him well you don't have to wear it, but if you get cold it's in your box.

If the parents came and were upset he didn't have a jacket on just say to them what they always say to us. Sorry I couldn't get him to put it on, good luck.

If you really can't deal with this child, then expect for the family to term al 3 kids. I am sure it would be very hard to have to pick up kids at different locations, but some families do it.

just my two cents

[Alwaysgreener]

I don't want to sound mean, but some of this sounds harsh.'
The swearing, I get, but don't put him in the corner.

I would tell him those words are no ok and they are not nice. let him sit out and think of better words to use. when you come back to him you an tell him that the swear words are hurtful and make you feel very sad. Then tell him what he can do when he feels frustrated like he wants to swear. Give him words he can use. It sounds like he really wants some attention and just may have a hard time letting down his walls and trusting an adult.

I have never had a kid swear before, but i have had a child that sounded like this that walked around angry at life. He is a doll now and one of my favs.

as for the jacket, I would not fight a kid on that. is it really worth it to fight a child to wear a jacket? he may not really be cold. I would tell him well you don't have to wear it, but if you get cold it's in your box.

If the parents came and were upset he didn't have a jacket on just say to them what they always say to us. Sorry I couldn't get him to put it on, good luck.

If you really can't deal with this child, then expect for the family to term al 3 kids. I am sure it would be very hard to have to pick up kids at different locations, but some families do it.

just my two cents

He went to the corner because he wouldn't sit down. This is not the first time he swore. When I put him in time out in the opening, he spends his time dancing every time I turn my back or making faces to get the other kids to laugh. He will run around the table when he thinks I am not looking. This boy is full of disrepect for me and his parents. For him to not get some time out in 2 hours for bullying, swearing or down right disrespecting me or dh, means he either got picked up earlier or I am exhausted and praying that I don't lose my mind.
Yes he hates the corner because it means he can not goof off with an audience. Plus he was given a choice, sit down or corner.

He was also given a choice coat or stay inside.

Oh I do not find you to be harsh, I under stand that you don't know the whole story or even had to deal with this child.

Oh once asked him to come see me and started screaming at me because he did not want to. The kicker, I was going to thank him for his good behavior.

[Unregistered]

As difficult as it is for you to hear, you are going about the guidance of young children in the wrong way. I can tell you don't want to hear anything but your way by the response you gave to the previous post. Contrary to what you said, the previous poster does know the sort of situation you're talking about. She also knows your response is incorrect and will get you no where. Putting children in corners for making the wrong choices is not the way you get respect. Furthermore, you are giving the child the wrong choices to choose from and setting you both up for failure. You really do need to learn guidance techniques from a reputable source (NAEYC or a college accredited course or a course promoted by your county or something- not an online thing that looks good to you- anyone can write an online thing). Is putting kids in the corner even legal according to lisencing standards?!
Maybe if you do term over this, hopefully the boy will land in the hands of a provider who can take care of him- all of him- not just making him wear a jacket. But teaching him he is important, his thoughts and feelings count for something. And that he can care about others and do kind things and make small compromises without losing face and that it's okay to make mistakes.
Either way, term or not, I hope you at least consider thinking about changing your approach. I'm sure this whole message will receive plenty of eye rolls (!) from you, but I feel angry for the dcb.

[Unregistered]

wow

Oh my god putting a child in the corner is not crime .can I ask what she did that was so bad she gave choicess she did not force or anything like that and she gave a consequences for his actions. Sounds good to me.really u say dont make him wear the jacket , this may sound harsh but really she is the provider she is the boss and has the right to make him wear that jacket she is looking out for whats best for the children she is doing her job.now if it was cold and the parents seen him without a jacket then she would be in trouble and have to hear from the parents.

[childcaremom]

A couple of my pre-coffee rambling thoughts:

You know that old saying, "The kids that need the most love ask for it in the most unloving ways." This dcb sounds like he fits the bill.

How long has he been there? Is he your oldest one there? Is he the one who needs a nap after school? How did that resolve with the parents and dcb?

He sounds overtired and stressed out from the school day. Releasing his anxieties (in inappropriate ways) when he gets to your place. If this is your napping guy, I am going to say that his behaviour is related to being tired. So mom and dad need to get their act together and get him to sleep at a decent time so that he can be his best self. First year of school? It is a HUGE adjustment for some children. Maybe bedtime needs to be moved WAY up for a small period of time.

My initial thought is to reverse things around with him: find the positive, ignore the negative. Just for a week. He is trying to push your buttons and seeking negative attention. Drop that with him. Show him that it doesn't work.

If you have had the family a while and are willing to work with him, I would place the child on probation. And tell mom that due to his behaviours, it is him only that is on probation, not the other children. I would lay out what he has been doing and also the fact that he is not responding to your disciplining techniques. I would be putting much of this back on the parents to fix. Hopefully one of the other providers has some great ideas for this. But I would absolutely expect the parents to back you on your expectations and chat with dcb. If he is doing these same behaviours at home, they need to be on the same page as you. He is old enough and knows better. I would possibly be callling for pick up if there are 3 or more incidents per day. Possibly immediate pick up for swearing. (that gets my goat)

I wouldn't feel badly about terming, either. You know if the parents will work with you or not. You know if you are willing to invest more time and energy into this child and getting these behaviours under control.

Either way, I would be advertising, just in case. Whether parents leave the other children there or not, I would be advertising for 3 spaces and see what happens.

[Play Care]

I would tell mom that SA dcboy has outgrown your toddler/preschool program. Tell her you are not equipped for school aged care and DC boy is "so advanced" he seems bored and unhappy despite your best efforts and you want better for him. Provide her with the numbers for school aged programs only.

I have a SA boy who would behave in similar fashion so I make sure that it's a lot of provider led activity is set locations (no free play) because he just doesn't make good decisions. I told his mom after this past summer with him that he is too old to be here on a daily basis when school is out. She understood.

[Laurel]

I would tell mom that SA dcboy has outgrown your toddler/preschool program. Tell her you are not equipped for school aged care and DC boy is "so advanced" he seems bored and unhappy despite your best efforts and you want better for him. Provide her with the numbers for school aged programs only.

I have a SA boy who would behave in similar fashion so I make sure that it's a lot of provider led activity is set locations (no free play) because he just doesn't make good decisions. I told his mom after this past summer with him that he is too old to be here on a daily basis when school is out. She understood.

I think this is a really good approach if you really want to stop watching him. I had a SA boy like that once (luckily only on school holidays) and I also had his baby brother and didn't want to lose brother. So I told mom that it wasn't working out to have both school age and babies as I wasn't able to give the school ager what he needed such as enough outdoor time as I had to tend to babies inside and couldn't do both at once. Also he was bored without someone his own age to play with and needed to be with older kids, etc. I think deep down she knew though because he was a handful at home too.

I also think a nap after school wouldn't hurt but not a long one. I remember when my daughter got off the kindergarten bus years ago she was a bundle of nastiness because she was tired. Way back in the day when I went to kindergarten it was only a half day. Some kindergartners just need that nap still.

Laurel

[ChelseaB]

I would also talk to mom about how you believe DCB has outgrown your program and that you simply aren't a good fit to accommodate his needs anymore. I also have a group varying in ages, and the SA are my worst group simply because they don't get to do as much as they are interested in because I also have young babies who are either napping or like now, it's too cold for me to take some of my littles out as much as we would like.

I had a boy nearly identical to the one you're describing -- he was 7 when he left, but he was also disrespectful and a handful. No amount of redirection nor positive/negative reinforcement would work. He simply needed more, and I was relieved when mom switched them to a program at our local YMCA where they have many many activities where he could be active and happy! Is there a Y in your area that you may be able to suggest to mom so as to keep the little brother? Often, busses drop off there and it's very reasonably priced!

When you know that neither you nor the child is happy with him there, it makes for a stressful situation. And it's not really anyone's fault. I do not disagree with how you disciplined, as every program is different and parents choose based on similar beliefs. I often had to do much of the same with my 7 yo. No amount of positive reinforcement helped. He actually got worse because he thought that what he was doing was working, and he'd act out more and worse to get even more attention. So yes, I think it was unfair for you to be lashed out at on here, especially when you're looking for help with the situation! Good luck!

[Thriftylady]

I think the outgrown conversation is a good one. The jacket I wouldn't push it. If he is cold he can put it on. I see it kind of like food issues, I won't fight with a child to eat something they can it it or be hungry, I see the jacket the same way. Pick your battles, don't sweat the small stuff. If you are worried about the parents being upset over the jacket (or something similar) just tell them when they come "Johnny wouldn't wear a jacket today so he was a little cold, but I couldn't keep all the kids inside all day as it is against regulation" because in many states you have to provide some outside time.

As far as the corner, I was put in one as a kid, it was the old time "time out". However I know in Kansas we were not allowed to. They considered it demeaning, which is considered abusive basically. If you are putting children in the corner and run into a parent upset by it, you can expect a visit from licensing. I don't know about Ohio, but I just don't do it, I don't need any issues!

[spedmommy4]

Oh my god putting a child in the corner is not crime .can I ask what she did that was so bad she gave choicess she did not force or anything like that and she gave a consequences for his actions. Sounds good to me.really u say dont make him wear the jacket , this may sound harsh but really she is the provider she is the boss and has the right to make him wear that jacket she is looking out for whats best for the children she is doing her job.now if it was cold and the parents seen him without a jacket then she would be in trouble and have to hear from the parents.

Absolutely correct. It's not a crime, and I am not going to weigh in on the debate. Whether it's wrong or right isn't the issue. The question should be: is the child care provider getting the result she wants with the strategies she is currently using? From her posts, it sounds like the answer is no.

You can't keep employing the same strategy and expect a different result. The child isn't going to change. The parents aren't going to change. The provider can; however, change her own behavior.

Forcing the jacket and the corner haven't worked. Why not let him go without a jacket? If he gets cold, he will put on a jacket. He's probably just saying no because he wants to engage in a power struggle. If he thinks the provider doesn't care either way, he may just give up and put on the jacket because he is the only one who suffers if he chooses not to.

Regarding the swear words, I would talk to him once and then completely ignore him. I would have everyone else ignore him too. As is, "sorry, we can't talk to dcb when he uses words like that" and go on about your day. It's no fun to use swear words if nobody cares. Hope that makes sense.

[mommyneedsadayoff]

Geez, some pretty strong responses from people who are apparent experts at how everyone should do childcare. I agree that the best way to talk to dcm would be to say that he has outgrown your program and is becoming bored, which has led to a lot of defiant behavior. You gave him choices and he chose time out. Wearing a coat is not an option here either. You wear it or you don't go outside. At 40 degrees this am, letting him decide not to wear his coat would simply mean we all bundle up, go outside, two minutes later when he is cold, I have to bring everyone else back inside so he can get his coat on...um, nope. He won't get a choice at school either. At our school, kids who don't have weather appropriate clothing have to stay inside and read. When I was young, we got to spend recess writing "I will not forget to bring my boots to school." about 30 times. It is a liability to take a child outside when you know they are not in proper clothes for the weather. As nannyde says, parents cannot give you permission to do the wrong thing and neither can a 5 year old. Dcb is being stubborn and rude. That may be from boredom, being tired, or being stressed by school, but it seems obvious that he is not fitting in your program and his behavior will start rubbing off on the other kids, so I would tell mom he has outgrown your program, but be prepared to lose all 3 just in case she finds somewhere for all of them to go.

[finsup]

Geez, some pretty strong responses from people who are apparent experts at how everyone should do childcare. I agree that the best way to talk to dcm would be to say that he has outgrown your program and is becoming bored, which has led to a lot of defiant behavior. You gave him choices and he chose time out. Wearing a coat is not an option here either. You wear it or you don't go outside. At 40 degrees this am, letting him decide not to wear his coat would simply mean we all bundle up, go outside, two minutes later when he is cold, I have to bring everyone else back inside so he can get his coat on...um, nope. He won't get a choice at school either. At our school, kids who don't have weather appropriate clothing have to stay inside and read. When I was young, we got to spend recess writing "I will not forget to bring my boots to school." about 30 times. It is a liability to take a child outside when you know they are not in proper clothes for the weather. As nannyde says, parents cannot give you permission to do the wrong thing and neither can a 5 year old. Dcb is being stubborn and rude. That may be from boredom, being tired, or being stressed by school, but it seems obvious that he is not fitting in your program and his behavior will start rubbing off on the other kids, so I would tell mom he has outgrown your program, but be prepared to lose all 3 just in case she finds somewhere for all of them to go.

Yup I termed a SA boy who was so rude and disrespectful, it was awful. He started rubbing off on the others and that was it. That kid could have used some corner time at home in addition to here But instead mom never said no, never corrected behavior, let dcb choose everything from bedtimes to dinner (even if she had already cooked, if he said he wanted something else they'd have to run right out to the store so she could make it) the list goes on. He was a big reason I stopped doing SA care. Too many kids act like this now.

Oh and jackets aren't a choice here either. If it's 35 degrees out, you wear a coat. Most say "oh they'll put it on when they get cold"... And sure some will, but some will play happily without it for whatever reason and that poses way too much of a risk. For providers and the child.

[Unregistered]

If you think I was talking about redirection and positive/negative reinforcement in my post regarding proper training, I'm not. Those aren't even what is taught in a current, reputable class on guidance. Literally, take a class. Stop trying old techniques from before people knew how children and human psychology develops. I have a serious question for those of you who like 'the corner' and demand a higher level of respect from children than from adults: can you honestly say where did you get the idea of doing 'the corner'? If it came from your parent or a teacher, where do you think THEY got the idea? And so on and so forth. How far back do you think it goes and why did those first adults use it? Do you really feel that those traditions and ideas, and ideals, are those really aligned with your beliefs? Have you ever heard of the old 'go and pick a switch'? I have. It was meant for me to go pick a light long whip of a branch from a tree for my parent to hit me with. It was (and maybe still is) a common form of getting respect and punishng kids. Where do you think my parents learned it, and theirs?.. It makes no sense to carry on with things just because that's what a precious generation did. It's hard because its imprinted in your family life from birth, but we must reflect on and change what isn't right. If we don't, what really is the point of it all?