New New York Regulations- What Are You All Doing ?

[melskids]

I bust my butt keeping things clean, safe, and within regulations here. Even so, life is not perfect and it doesn't take much to get cited.

Here are a few examples where, despite all of the prep. in the world, I still got cited.

#1: House is clean & safe. DCK's are here & we are doing our thing. Lic. shows up (let me interject that I really respect & like my lic. rep. She is very by the book and isn't afraid to say, "Let me check with my supervisor" if she isn't 100% sure about something.) and does an inspection. Well, my two boys had been repairing their skateboards in the backyard and left a can of WD-40 out. Even though I clearly would have seen it and picked it up when we got outside I got cited for it.

#2: All trash cans indoors and out must have lids on them. The lid blew off my outdoor trash can & I didn't know. Cited.

#3: DCB has a medical condition and I had to call an ambulance for him. The EMT wanted his information for the doctor at the hospital and I gave him DCB's info from file. You have to inform lic. if you have to call an ambulance for a child and they come do an inspection. I got cited for not having DCB's paperwork even though it was less than 24 hrs. since he got sick, he wasn't in attendance that day, and I explained why I didn't have his info. (This was when we were first learning about DCB's condition. Now I keep copies in case i have to call 911 and they need info to take with them.)

#4 All children must have current physicals on record. There is no grace period giving parents time to get the physical done - if the physical expires on March 1, you have to have a physical in their file on or before March 1st. However, as someone else already pointed out, insurance companies will not pay for a physical until it is one year and a day after their last one. Then the doctor may not have an opening or, even if you are lucky enough to snag an appointment this day, the doctor often has to reschedule. So do you tell a parent that their perfectly healthy child has to be excluded from care until they are able to get a physical (which they might have to wait up to two weeks for an opening)? Ding.
Again, i don't think anyone is saying that they are against the inspections themselves. It is how they are done. It is the unrealistic expectations. It is the regulations that are unenforceable unless our privacy is seriously, seriously invaded.

OK....I am not trying to argue with any of you...I hope you all realize that. My frustration is with how each registrar interprets the regs differently.

The reg is:

(1) Other than children who are enrolled in kindergarten or a higher grade, no child may be accepted for care in a child care program unless the program has been furnished with a written statement signed by a health care provider verifying that the child is able to participate in child day care and currently appears to be free from contagious or communicable diseases. A child’s medical statement must have been completed within the 12 months preceding the date of enrollment.

You DO NOT need a new physical every year. You only need ONE physical upon enrollment, and can not be more than a year old at that time. No where does it say the PHYSICAL has to be updated yearly.

Immunizations need to be up to date, yes, but that does not require a full physical every year. I have my parents give me a new copy of the immunization record every time they go get a new one.

[Laurel]

I’ve documented and have met with higher ups. It has been a retaliatory situation in my case. I have close to approximately 50+ documentation pages. Now what I’ve been complaining about & stating for over a year, others are seeing. Recently some inspections have been removed from my file because I wouldn’t sit back and just take it. Once this particular individual visited my home 15 times in one month.

Recently interim management suggested I go through the state to receive my license. Then I could eliminate dealing with the ridiculous.

I should add I am not in New York. I just understand why many providers have some concerns. I get inspections are important in an attempt to KEEP CHILDREN SAFE & weed out unsatisfactory providers. I just believe some personnel do not comprehend the regulations or abuse their positions.

Oh I agree that some abuse their positions. That is a rough situation to be in. Luckily I've never had that experience.

In our case, we have a network of providers who formed an association and we 'fight' things as a group. Once we went to a city council meeting and very professionally stated our case and stuck up for some other providers.

Laurel

[Laurel]

OK.....this is what I was told.

This is the new reg:

2) Child day care providers must admit inspectors and other representatives of the Office onto the grounds and premises at any time during their hours of operation or while children are in care for the purpose of conducting inspections. Such inspectors and representatives must be given free access to the building or buildings used by the provider, staff and children, and to any records of the provider.

If I call her and tell her I am closed, then I am NOT operating during those hours.

I mean no disrespect to YOUR registrar, but this is the BS I don't like about them being allowed to interpret the regs any way they see fit.

She also said access to the building means YES, looking in the room, but not going through personal belongings such as underwear drawers.

That is the way it is here. If I am going to be closed a day during my inspection month I call so she doesn't make a trip to my house. I figure that would tick her off and who wants to tick her off.

Back in the day, I used to call my provider friend and whine about the unfair things. She set me straight. She said just pay attention to what the particular monitor (what they are called here) seems to care about and make sure that is done whether you like it or not. So mine cares about the sign in sheet, the mat on the diaper changing table to see that is has no little tears in it, etc. She could care less if there are toys all over the floor (the other one cared about that), etc. So that saved me a lot of needless stress. I actually keep a brand new diaper changing pad behind the chest I use to change the children so I KNOW there are no teeney tears in it. I roll the one up I really use and put it in a drawer of the changing table. I put the new one out when I hear a knock at the door. :: Things like that....

Personally on the hot chocolate thing I would tell the parents about the regulation and when we all agreed it was ridiculous, I'd ask them to each chip in a few cents to buy a box of the packets. Then I'd write each child's name on a packet so I could honestly say the parent supplied it. Problem solved.

Laurel

[Mister Sir Husband]

I bust my butt keeping things clean, safe, and within regulations here. Even so, life is not perfect and it doesn't take much to get cited.

Here are a few examples where, despite all of the prep. in the world, I still got cited.

#1: House is clean & safe. DCK's are here & we are doing our thing. Lic. shows up (let me interject that I really respect & like my lic. rep. She is very by the book and isn't afraid to say, "Let me check with my supervisor" if she isn't 100% sure about something.) and does an inspection. Well, my two boys had been repairing their skateboards in the backyard and left a can of WD-40 out. Even though I clearly would have seen it and picked it up when we got outside I got cited for it.

#2: All trash cans indoors and out must have lids on them. The lid blew off my outdoor trash can & I didn't know. Cited.

#3: DCB has a medical condition and I had to call an ambulance for him. The EMT wanted his information for the doctor at the hospital and I gave him DCB's info from file. You have to inform lic. if you have to call an ambulance for a child and they come do an inspection. I got cited for not having DCB's paperwork even though it was less than 24 hrs. since he got sick, he wasn't in attendance that day, and I explained why I didn't have his info. (This was when we were first learning about DCB's condition. Now I keep copies in case i have to call 911 and they need info to take with them.)

#4 All children must have current physicals on record. There is no grace period giving parents time to get the physical done - if the physical expires on March 1, you have to have a physical in their file on or before March 1st. However, as someone else already pointed out, insurance companies will not pay for a physical until it is one year and a day after their last one. Then the doctor may not have an opening or, even if you are lucky enough to snag an appointment this day, the doctor often has to reschedule. So do you tell a parent that their perfectly healthy child has to be excluded from care until they are able to get a physical (which they might have to wait up to two weeks for an opening)? Ding.

Again, i don't think anyone is saying that they are against the inspections themselves. It is how they are done. It is the unrealistic expectations. It is the regulations that are unenforceable unless our privacy is seriously, seriously invaded.

Now hopefully no one here thinks I am trying to be argumentative or difficult. I was just licensed this past January and am more interested in being clear on these things before they become an issue for me. I do also feel that is depends on your individual licensor as to how strict they are. I sincerely do apologize if I seem to be arguing with anyone as I truly am not.

Now with this being said, number 1 above wouldn't happen here. I have 3 of my own kids (11, 6 and 4) and a wife who leaves for work early in the am. (leaves hair dryer and curling iron out sometimes) When I get up every morning, I pour myself a good sized mug of coffee, and spend 10 minutes walking around the house (and outside if its nice out).. picking up and taking care of things that may be in violation and locking doors to non daycare areas. I consider this part of my job and it rarely takes too much effort. The lid on the outdoor trash can might happen here if it blew off during the day as I would have replaced it during my morning inspection.. but if I were cited for it on a day that's obviously windy enough to blow it off.. welp, I would definitely fight that one.

Number 3 above.. The way I understand the regulation, and the way my licensor (and the class I took for heath/safety covered this too) explained it to me is that every child in my care is to have 2 blue cards. One to be filed on the premises and the other to be with the child. If we for example go to the park, I would take with us my first aid kit and in this kit is a copy of every child's blue card. So with that same idea in mind, if a child goes by ambulance to the hospital, I also send the blue card from my first aid kit with them. I still however have another one here on file so if I were inspected the next day its here.

Number 4 above.... Physicals.. I completely understand that doctors can quite often be booked up. I also have dealt with insurance companies before too in regard to the one year + 1 day since the last physical. I checked the regulation and all I could find was 417.11(e) that a physical must be done before accepting them into care. This being the case, they get it before they are registered here and attend their first day, or they don't start until its done. (immunizations are different as if the appointment is made to have it done they can start 417.11(e)(1))

You mentioned above that "if it expires on March 1st".. and I am honestly not clear by reading the regulation how often a new physical needs to be done to keep them in care. I am assuming its no more often than once a year. Now that being said.. If a child is enrolled here, and their physical expires on March 1st.. Why cant the parent call and make the appointment to have it done 2 or 3 months earlier? If its because of an insurance thing, then make the appointment 366 days after the last one.. but don't wait until March 28th and complain that the "doctor is booked through April and cant get my child in"

I did also find in the regulations that its the day care providers responsibility to keep track of immunizations and when they are due, and to remind the parents a minimum of 30 days prior to this. I know we discussing physicals and not immunizations but I figure close enough. I personally have no problem telling a parent a couple months in advance that if their child isn't up to date on these things in 60-90 days from now that they will be excluded. If the parent doesn't follow through and make the appt. in time, then its not my problem if the child cant be here.

[Familycare71]

OK.....this is what I was told.

This is the new reg:

2) Child day care providers must admit inspectors and other representatives of the Office onto the grounds and premises at any time during their hours of operation or while children are in care for the purpose of conducting inspections. Such inspectors and representatives must be given free access to the building or buildings used by the provider, staff and children, and to any records of the provider.

If I call her and tell her I am closed, then I am NOT operating during those hours.

I mean no disrespect to YOUR registrar, but this is the BS I don't like about them being allowed to interpret the regs any way they see fit.

She also said access to the building means YES, looking in the room, but not going through personal belongings such as underwear drawers.

PLEASE- READ the new regulation. That is NOT what it says. And maybe who you spoke to is the same person who does your inspections. For me that is not the case.
The new inspections are based, as stated, on application hours.
What happens when you have a new person and they decide to go by what is stated???
If your fine with that GREAT! But don't for one second think because one person told you what is in the new regs isn't accurate that it can't be done or won't be done-

[melskids]

PLEASE- READ the new regulation. That is NOT what it says. And maybe who you spoke to is the same person who does your inspections. For me that is not the case.
The new inspections are based, as stated, on application hours.
What happens when you have a new person and they decide to go by what is stated???
If your fine with that GREAT! But don't for one second think because one person told you what is in the new regs isn't accurate that it can't be done or won't be done-

Can you show me the new reg then and what it does say? Because that is what it says in my set of new regs I was given.

[Blackcat31]

PLEASE- READ the new regulation. That is NOT what it says. And maybe who you spoke to is the same person who does your inspections. For me that is not the case.
The new inspections are based, as stated, on application hours.
What happens when you have a new person and they decide to go by what is stated???
If your fine with that GREAT! But don't for one second think because one person told you what is in the new regs isn't accurate that it can't be done or won't be done-

How often are you re-licensed?

If it is yearly, couldn't you just submit your hours of operation for THAT year to licensing so that you will have designated closed days where you know that licensing isn't going to come for an inspection?

Also, if one person told Melskids something what makes that person's word any more the truth than what your one person told you? kwim?

Sounds like you all need ONE agency or entity to interpret the rules because if they are all being read and understood differently, there is no way ANY of you will ever meet the requirements then. Especially those that have different inspectors every time you have an inspection.

I think that is where everyone needs to start. The new regulations may or may not be an issue, it is the interpretation that seems to be the problem.

WHO in New York is in the position to have the ultimate authority over regulation clarification/interpretation?

On a side note, I am so sorry you are all having to deal with this. ((hugs))

[Laurel]

Now hopefully no one here thinks I am trying to be argumentative or difficult. I was just licensed this past January and am more interested in being clear on these things before they become an issue for me. I do also feel that is depends on your individual licensor as to how strict they are. I sincerely do apologize if I seem to be arguing with anyone as I truly am not.

Now with this being said, number 1 above wouldn't happen here. I have 3 of my own kids (11, 6 and 4) and a wife who leaves for work early in the am. (leaves hair dryer and curling iron out sometimes) When I get up every morning, I pour myself a good sized mug of coffee, and spend 10 minutes walking around the house (and outside if its nice out).. picking up and taking care of things that may be in violation and locking doors to non daycare areas. I consider this part of my job and it rarely takes too much effort. The lid on the outdoor trash can might happen here if it blew off during the day as I would have replaced it during my morning inspection.. but if I were cited for it on a day that's obviously windy enough to blow it off.. welp, I would definitely fight that one.

Number 3 above.. The way I understand the regulation, and the way my licensor (and the class I took for heath/safety covered this too) explained it to me is that every child in my care is to have 2 blue cards. One to be filed on the premises and the other to be with the child. If we for example go to the park, I would take with us my first aid kit and in this kit is a copy of every child's blue card. So with that same idea in mind, if a child goes by ambulance to the hospital, I also send the blue card from my first aid kit with them. I still however have another one here on file so if I were inspected the next day its here.

Number 4 above.... Physicals.. I completely understand that doctors can quite often be booked up. I also have dealt with insurance companies before too in regard to the one year + 1 day since the last physical. I checked the regulation and all I could find was 417.11(e) that a physical must be done before accepting them into care. This being the case, they get it before they are registered here and attend their first day, or they don't start until its done. (immunizations are different as if the appointment is made to have it done they can start 417.11(e)(1))

You mentioned above that "if it expires on March 1st".. and I am honestly not clear by reading the regulation how often a new physical needs to be done to keep them in care. I am assuming its no more often than once a year. Now that being said.. If a child is enrolled here, and their physical expires on March 1st.. Why cant the parent call and make the appointment to have it done 2 or 3 months earlier? If its because of an insurance thing, then make the appointment 366 days after the last one.. but don't wait until March 28th and complain that the "doctor is booked through April and cant get my child in"

I did also find in the regulations that its the day care providers responsibility to keep track of immunizations and when they are due, and to remind the parents a minimum of 30 days prior to this. I know we discussing physicals and not immunizations but I figure close enough. I personally have no problem telling a parent a couple months in advance that if their child isn't up to date on these things in 60-90 days from now that they will be excluded. If the parent doesn't follow through and make the appt. in time, then its not my problem if the child cant be here.

We were never told to have two copies but that is a good idea. I have a copy of the Emergency Medical Authorization in my stroller. Once I did have to call 911 and have child taken by ambulance and gave them the original. I thought then that I should have a copy so then I got some. Luckily, no inspection that day.

I put stickers on my calendar before something is due so then when I turn to a new month I can see ahead and remind parents ahead of time what they need.

Laurel

[melskids]

How often are you re-licensed?

If it is yearly, couldn't you just submit your hours of operation for THAT year to licensing so that you will have designated closed days where you know that licensing isn't going to come for an inspection?

Also, if one person told Melskids something what makes that person's word any more the truth than what your one person told you? kwim?

Sounds like you all need ONE agency or entity to interpret the rules because if they are all being read and understood differently, there is no way ANY of you will ever meet the requirements then. Especially those that have different inspectors every time you have an inspection.

I think that is where everyone needs to start. The new regulations may or may not be an issue, it is the interpretation that seems to be the problem.

WHO in New York is in the position to have the ultimate authority over regulation clarification/interpretation?

On a side note, I am so sorry you are all having to deal with this. ((hugs))

My whole point.

My information came straight from someone in Albany. So someone's got their wires crossed somewhere. LOL

My whole point is...none of us should take this sitting down.

Question every thing.

[melskids]

Sorry double post.

[melskids]

PLEASE- READ the new regulation. That is NOT what it says. And maybe who you spoke to is the same person who does your inspections. For me that is not the case.
The new inspections are based, as stated, on application hours.
What happens when you have a new person and they decide to go by what is stated???
If your fine with that GREAT! But don't for one second think because one person told you what is in the new regs isn't accurate that it can't be done or won't be done-

This is right from the OCFS website:

417.15 (10) A family day care home must admit inspectors and other representatives of the Office onto the grounds and premises at any time during the hours of operation of the home. Such inspectors and representatives must be given free access to the building, the caregivers, the children and any records of the home. A family day care home must cooperate with inspectors and other representatives of the Office in regard to any inspections or investigations that are conducted by the Office or its representatives. A family day care home also must cooperate with local Child Protective Services' Staff conducting any investigation of alleged child abuse or maltreatment;


It clearly states "during the hours of operation"



When I am on vacation or closed there ARE NO hours of operation.

NO WHERE does it state "application hours".

Familycare71, I'm not trying to argue with you, or prove YOU wrong. Please don't take it that way.

[Blackcat31]

This is right from the OCFS website:

417.15 (10) A family day care home must admit inspectors and other representatives of the Office onto the grounds and premises at any time during the hours of operation of the home. Such inspectors and representatives must be given free access to the building, the caregivers, the children and any records of the home. A family day care home must cooperate with inspectors and other representatives of the Office in regard to any inspections or investigations that are conducted by the Office or its representatives. A family day care home also must cooperate with local Child Protective Services' Staff conducting any investigation of alleged child abuse or maltreatment;


It clearly states "during the hours of operation"



When I am on vacation or closed there ARE NO hours of operation.

NO WHERE does it state "application hours".

Familycare71, I'm not trying to argue with you, or prove YOU wrong. Please don't take it that way.

...right after the rule you posted it says

417.15 (12) The family day care home must report to the Office: any change affecting, or which reasonably might be expected to affect, those portions of the building in which the program is located or which are used for the children's egress in the case of emergency; any change in family composition; and any other change that would place the home out of compliance with applicable regulations;

which I read as simply informing the licensing agency as to vacations and closed days ect that maybe weren't planed as non-operating days/hours so that licensing reps and/or inspectors don't show up on those days.

I also haven't found any wording that says that the inspectors will check/search any part of the home that is not used for child care. Other than the peeking in a room like Mel said her inspector does, I can't see how any inspector would take that rules as needing to search through lingerie drawers etc.

[melskids]

...right after the rule you posted it says

417.15 (12) The family day care home must report to the Office: any change affecting, or which reasonably might be expected to affect, those portions of the building in which the program is located or which are used for the children's egress in the case of emergency; any change in family composition; and any other change that would place the home out of compliance with applicable regulations;

which I read as simply informing the licensing agency as to vacations and closed days ect that maybe weren't planed as non-operating days/hours so that licensing reps and/or inspectors don't show up on those days.

I also haven't found any wording that says that the inspectors will check/search any part of the home that is not used for child care. Other than the peeking in a room like Mel said her inspector does, I can't see how any inspector would take that rules as needing to search through lingerie drawers etc.

Exactly. All I have to do is either email them my days off in advance, or call her first thing in the morning if I close due to illness.

I'm not arguing with anyone....please don't take it that way. My whole point is no one has to take this crud sitting down. Registrars are only human, and can very easily interpret rules wrong, or to their own benefit. I wouldnt tolerate that for a second.

[Familycare71]

This is right from the OCFS website:

417.15 (10) A family day care home must admit inspectors and other representatives of the Office onto the grounds and premises at any time during the hours of operation of the home. Such inspectors and representatives must be given free access to the building, the caregivers, the children and any records of the home. A family day care home must cooperate with inspectors and other representatives of the Office in regard to any inspections or investigations that are conducted by the Office or its representatives. A family day care home also must cooperate with local Child Protective Services' Staff conducting any investigation of alleged child abuse or maltreatment;


It clearly states "during the hours of operation"



When I am on vacation or closed there ARE NO hours of operation.

NO WHERE does it state "application hours".

Familycare71, I'm not trying to argue with you, or prove YOU wrong. Please don't take it that way.

I WANT to be wrong . I do not take it that way at all! This is why I posted the thread- for discussion and views.
I found the following on the OCFS website under the new regs that go into effect May 1st. I think you are looking at the old regulations that are in effect until May 1st.

(10) (i) A family day care home must admit inspectors and other representatives of the Office onto the grounds and premises at any time during the hours of operation as documented with the Office on the application for family day care. Such inspectors and representatives must be given free access to the building, the caregivers, employees and volunteers, the children and any program records.

[melskids]

417.15 10 i.
Must admit inspectors and other reps of office onto grounds and premises at anytime during the hours of operation GIVEN TO OFFICE ON APPLICATION OF FAMILY DAYCARE. Given FREE ACCESS TO BUILDING, care givers, employers, volunteers, the children and any records.

The key is it is now based on when you have told them you may operate NOT when you are operating. I have verified this with VOICE and my registrar. I asked my registrar if I email him to tell him I'm closed will they show up. His response was: well- they probably wouldn't because they want to see kids in care. But if they don't check the computer first they may. But- those are the fastest inspections because you don't have to manage kids just show them every thing. If you aren't home that's ok - they will just leave a sorry to miss you note.

And before anyone says- just don't answer the door... On my days off I don't know if I'm willing to hide in my own house!!! And what if I'm outside!?! Clearly they can come around back, etc...

Not to beat a dead horse, but 417.15 10 i isn't even a regulation. Where did you get that number from?