Pitbulls in Daycare

[hgonzalez]

But doesn't the fact that they have a predisposition of being aggressive towards other animals scare you? I mean, sometimes little kids make weird noises or movements that may seem animal-like to another animal.

The fact that they have any tendency to be aggressive towards any other living creatures is scary enough for me. Also, you seriously don't think that physical structure (the large jaws and head) of a bully breed or Rottweiler can cause more damage than say a smaller breed with a narrow head and jaw?

[jenn]

I am in Kansas. The regulations from the department of health says -Pit bulldogs are prohibited.

[Willow]

But doesn't the fact that they have a predisposition of being aggressive towards other animals scare you? I mean, sometimes little kids make weird noises or movements that may seem animal-like to another animal.

The fact that they have any tendency to be aggressive towards any other living creatures is scary enough for me. Also, you seriously don't think that physical structure (the large jaws and head) of a bully breed or Rottweiler can cause more damage than say a smaller breed with a narrow head and jaw?

Their pre-disposition to being aggressive towards other animals doesn't scare me any more than it does in ANY breed.

Do I think that because a Border Collie will bite at the heels of sheep and cattle, that that'll naturally predispose them to bite people? No. Although I'll tell you I've seen them do it far more than I've seen a "pit bull type" dog bite the face of human in the same way the bit onto the face of a wild animal to hold it.......

Decently bred and stable minded dogs know the difference. Taking that a step further my dogs don't even blink in the direction of my cats but if there's a stray outside? All bets are off. My Miniature Pinscher will play gently with house pet guinea pigs, rabbits and my daughters chinchilla, but will on any give day bring me back headless squirrels, gophers and wild rabbits. And he is the furthest thing possible from decently bred or stable minded.

I understand why someone wouldn't think it worth the risk to give them that much credit but behavior experts will tell you dogs can and do know the difference.


The list of dogs that are INHERENTLY aggressive towards other animals is astounding. I'd go so far as to say most have an inkling in some way to snap. "Pit bull types" are only several of many MANY. So if that's a deal breaker for you you best consider ALL that have that in them....that means all your guardian breeds, sight hounds, herders, most of your working breeds, sporting dogs, most of your toy breeds, hounds, terriers, pinschers etc......big and small.

My Pug btw has a ridiculously wide jaw and he couldn't clamp down onto air if he wanted to.

I don't think there is no difference between the jaw mechinism of a "pit bull type" dog, I know. That they have a wider bite does not mean that the jaw is also somehow magically stronger. They've done studies regarding this. Gruesome one's really that involve sedated dogs who have electrical current run through different points in their head, and they ended with the dogs being euthanized, but yeah. That's total myth. The mechanism and strength of bite has more to do with genetics than anything else. You can easily find a Maltese with a stronger bite than a "pit bull type" if said "pit bull" has an over or underbite (as many MANY of them do). Same would go for the German Shepherds and Malinois law enforcement often recruit for K9 work. Theres a reason they dont just snag any Fido from a shelter and the recruits often run upwards of $10-20,000/dog. They know that sub standard breeding can net them an animal that doesnt have the ability to take on a stuffed animal even though genetically its still 100% Malinois.

[Leanna]

Ok...let me start by saying I am not a dog person. I've been bitten twice (at age 12 by our family dog, a German Shepherd mix and at age 19 visiting a family friend by a schnauzer) and my DS was bitten just walking down the street by a Bichon frise).

I agree that dogs and children do not mix and you should always keep your dog away from your DCK's.

HOWEVER, there is a lot of misinformation in this thread. There is no such breed as a "pit bull." Pit bull is a slang term people use to describe any dog with a big head, cropped ears, brindle coat, eye patch, and stocky body. What people really mean when they say "pit bull" is usually a American Pitbull terrier, American Staffordshire Terrier, Staffordshire Bull terriers, or a mix.

"Pitbulls" do not a locking jaws. This is a myth. Their jaws are not inherently different than other dogs.

In a study done by the American Temperament Testing Society "pitbulls" scored better than beagles and Golden Retrievers. (See www.ATTS.org for a complete list - they tested 122 breeds).

"Pitbulls" get a bad rap because they have become associated with gang culture, dog fighting, poverty, etc. Really, anyone can have one and they are an easy breed to train. It DOES make a difference on how you raise the dog and whether or not it is neutered. SO, like any dog, responsible ownership is a must.

Here is a quote from Cesar Milan, the "dog whisperer":
"My kids are around pit bulls every day. In the '70s they blamed Dobermans,in the '80s they blamed German shepherds, in the '90s they blamed the Rottweiler. Now they blame the pit bull."

No, I don't have a dog. No, I never will. Yes, I cross the street when I am walking and someone has a dog. BUT I don't discriminate based on breed because I know so much we think is true is myth or urban legend.

[Brooksie]

Ok...let me start by saying I am not a dog person. I've been bitten twice (at age 12 by our family dog, a German Shepherd mix and at age 19 visiting a family friend by a schnauzer) and my DS was bitten just walking down the street by a Bichon frise).

I agree that dogs and children do not mix and you should always keep your dog away from your DCK's.

HOWEVER, there is a lot of misinformation in this thread. There is no such breed as a "pit bull." Pit bull is a slang term people use to describe any dog with a big head, cropped ears, brindle coat, eye patch, and stocky body. What people really mean when they say "pit bull" is usually a American Pitbull terrier, American Staffordshire Terrier, Staffordshire Bull terriers, or a mix.

"Pitbulls" do not a locking jaws. This is a myth. Their jaws are not inherently different than other dogs.

In a study done by the American Temperament Testing Society "pitbulls" scored better than beagles and Golden Retrievers. (See www.ATTS.org for a complete list - they tested 122 breeds).

"Pitbulls" get a bad rap because they have become associated with gang culture, dog fighting, poverty, etc. Really, anyone can have one and they are an easy breed to train. It DOES make a difference on how you raise the dog and whether or not it is neutered. SO, like any dog, responsible ownership is a must.

Here is a quote from Cesar Milan, the "dog whisperer":
"My kids are around pit bulls every day. In the '70s they blamed Dobermans,in the '80s they blamed German shepherds, in the '90s they blamed the Rottweiler. Now they blame the pit bull."

No, I don't have a dog. No, I never will. Yes, I cross the street when I am walking and someone has a dog. BUT I don't discriminate based on breed because I know so much we think is true is myth or urban legend.

[hgonzalez]

So if an American Staffordshire Terrier is running toward you fast looking straight at you and in the other direction, there is a Cavalier King Charles Spaniel running at you, you would not feel more threatened by the Am Staff than the Cav?

[Willow]

So if an American Staffordshire Terrier is running toward you fast looking straight at you and in the other direction, there is a Cavalier King Charles Spaniel running at you, you would not feel more threatened by the Am Staff than the Cav?

Would depend on the whole picture.

Any dog merely running toward me wouldnt scare me in the least.

Now if a CKCS was running toward me with hackles up, ears pinned, hunkered low, tail high, lips curled, frothing, and barking assertively while the Staffy was running toward me with happy posture, ears and eyes relaxed, tail mid set and tongue wagging then absolutely I'd feel more threatened by the CKCS.

Simply running or running toward someone is not necessarily a threatening behavior unless you combine it with others.

Same would apply if the behaviors were reversed in those two breeds, or while using any two breeds of dog in existence to compare.



If behavior in both was identical I'd be grabbing my pepper spray to hit whoever was fixin to make it to me first.

[Blackcat31]

Personally, I think OP started this thread so this conversation would get heated....

The issue posted in the original post is not really being discussed anymore and the conversation has turned into a debate about the danger of specific breeds.....

BOTTOM LINE is the parent needs to talk to the provider.

OP is in the discussion but has not answered the initial questions asked:

• Is fostering dogs something the provider has always done or is it something new she just started doing?
  
• Did the provider talk with the parent about getting dogs and/or what her plan is to keep the dogs separated from the daycare kids?
  
• Has the parent even tried to discuss this issue with her provider?

The parent needs to do whatever she needs to do in order to feel her child is safe.

REGARDLESS of whether the provider has a pit bull type dog or a teeny tiny poodle.

[Michael]

So if an American Staffordshire Terrier is running toward you fast looking straight at you and in the other direction, there is a Cavalier King Charles Spaniel running at you, you would not feel more threatened by the Am Staff than the Cav?

Yes, I know Pit Bull can be several breeds so I've taken several of the breeds that Wikipedia says are part of that group and decided to use a visual of what I think about those animals that should not be around young children. I think all dogs should be separated from the daycare environment IMO for several other reasons.


Probably Could Do Harm





Probably Not So likely To Do Major Harm


This is not a fear. Its a primal instinct. One can tell a snake may be venomous by a larger back jaw. Just seems logical.

[hgonzalez]

Thank you, Michael. There is no doubt in my mind that the dogs in the upper row are more powerful based on physical attributes alone.

I am sure there are some perfectly lovely specimens, but I would not trust them around kids.

[Cradle2crayons]

I agree there are a lot of questionable breeds.

My daughters dog is a service dog, more specifically an ESD. She's a jack Russell rat terrier mixed dog. She tops the scale at 12 lbs soaking wet. She's 8 years old and has been with my daughter since we picked her out at 6 weeks old. I could honestly trust her around any child, any animal, any situation.

Our weenie dog, well, he's a weenie dog. They tend to be protective by nature. I trust HIM more than I trust the kids with him. I'm more worried a child will hurt his legs or spine than I am anything. He IS a barker though.

Even though I trust my dogs and I know exactly how they will react to certain situations, I still don't trust every scenario when a child is involved.

Although my dogs are out during daycare (they sleep on the back of the couch that he kids aren't allowed to sit on), I monitor them 100% of the time. The daycare kids are never allowed to approach either dog without permission and me being in the scenario. It's not to prevent the kids from being injured as much as it is to prevent the kids from injuring the dogs.

I would be very uncomfortable leaving my kids in an environment where ANY animal wasn't supervised 100% of the time around children. And I wouldn't leave any animal and a child unsupervised here in my home either.

I don't have a problem with any specific breed, but in general if I had to pick I'd much rather it not be a large dog involved. Simply because they have more capability of doing damage compared to a small dog.

[Willow]

Yes, I know Pit Bull can be several breeds so I've taken several of the breeds that Wikipedia says are part of that group and decided to use a visual of what I think about those animals that should not be around young children. I think all dogs should be separated from the daycare environment IMO for several other reasons.


Probably Could Do Harm





Probably Not So likely To Do Major Harm


This is not a fear. Its a primal instinct. One can tell a snake may be venomous by a larger back jaw. Just seems logical.

That logic is flawed when it comes to dogs though, which is evidenced by the fact that more people are bitten by Labrador Retrievers than any other breed. Everyone just assumes because they look cute and cuddly they must be safe.

It's also why people are constantly abandoning their animals when they pick out one out based soley on the way it looks as opposed to what it can and cannot contribute to their family.

The Slow Loris is one of the cutest harmless looking critters on the planet imho, but just touching it can kill you.

You cannot judge an animal by looks alone, especially when it comes to domesticated pets that have been bred for centuries to perform very specific tasks or live in very specific ways.


If you don't like "pit bull type" dogs that's fine. But there's no reason to further villianize them with already disproven myths about who and what they inherently are. Someone else offered a great link to how they placed in temperament tests. They truly are safer than many other common/harmless looking breeds and that's been proven time and time again.


eta - all we have up here for snakes are harmless. If I was out of my element somewhere else I wouldn't sit and contemplate the size or color of the jaw of a snake I ran across, I'd simply retreat (quickly and with terror) and assume all had deadly potential.....same would go for any animal I was completely unfamiliar with

[Brooksie]

Yes, I know Pit Bull can be several breeds so I've taken several of the breeds that Wikipedia says are part of that group and decided to use a visual of what I think about those animals that should not be around young children. I think all dogs should be separated from the daycare environment IMO for several other reasons.


Probably Could Do Harm





Probably Not So likely To Do Major Harm


This is not a fear. Its a primal instinct. One can tell a snake may be venomous by a larger back jaw. Just seems logical.

I used to groom dogs and out of this group that you've posted, honestly, the CKCS was the nastiest. I've been bitten by them and other small breeds more than any thing else. Actually I've never been bitten by a Med/Large breed. I have never groomed or even come across a well treated bully breed that wasn't an absolute joy and sweet heart. I've worked in grooming, independently owned pet store and worked closely with the local Humane Society and the dogs that are most likely going to bite you are little fluffy ill tempered pooches. I hate small dogs because of how many horrible experiences I've had with them. So yea, if a smiling pit ran up to me or a shihtzu did, I would be more willing to reach out to the pit and not the small breed.

On that note, I DO think that all dogs should be kept away from daycare kids. Not because of the kind of dog, but for their safety from the children. I have an "American Pit Bull" and while I trust her completely with my child (3 in Dec) I don't trust the other children with her. By adopting her I have made a promise to protect her and that includes rough kids, scapegoats, stereo types and parents with bad ideas. All my DCPs love her but they can admire her from the gate in the kitchen.

And again to touch on the breed discrimination and the post saying which you fear most, my daughter has been bitten by a lhasa-poo because her foot "got to close to him". So yea, I prefer large breeds and my dog is an ambassador to her breed. My other dog, a Shar-pei lab mix (who looks 10x more "threatening" and is 20 lbs heavier) is a complete baby and used to be allowed with the daycare kids. He preferred to lay on the rug where the kids were playing. They would pull on him, dress him up and NO JOKE build tiny block towers on his head. Once I got our newest and most precious girl, because of the breed discrimination and the uncertainty of her history, I started separating the dogs. Best decision ever. Not because I am concerned she will "attack" but because I KNOW I am protection my DOGS. Both my dogs don't just "tolerate" kids. They LOVE them. They want to be with them (Ireland, my pit, whines all day long when she's in the kitchen). They are patient and sweet and kind and take a lot more abuse from the kids than I would. And they do it with love.

My Sharpei lab mix is dog aggressive. A lot of pit bulls are as well. But that does NOT mean they are PEOPLE aggressive. Its not even close to the same thing. 'Pit bulls' are the Nanny's of history. Ask ANY dog trainer. ANY Vet. Just because a breed has a tendency (pit bulls show this around 18 months+) to be dog aggressive, that does not mean they will ever show aggression towards a person.

Ignorance about this breed, fueled by media, is profound. And its clear here in this thread. Honestly, its like saying "I don't want to take a black family because of...." or "I don't want to take a middle eastern family because of..." Its discrimination.

I agree with BlackCat, I think OP was trying to start something. The real issue here is fostering strange dogs and having them around the kids. I do NOT think that is a good idea and it should be addressed. If this is something the provider was doing before enrollment, than that's their fault for enrolling in something that makes them uncomfortable. I would advise the provider to better protect her DOGS from people that may have concerns about her choices to help dogs get a second chance.

[caregiver]

I know that this is a totally different subject from the one started about the pit bulls, but I just have to voice my opinion and it is just my opinion and my thinking and I'm not trying to say anyone is right or wrong on this subject,so here goes.....There are many people, with children and without children that have dogs as pets,dogs are the number one pet. I think it all depends on what type of dog you have, how you train it,how you teach children to treat dogs,and if a child is born into a family that already has a dog,they should be used to having a dog around and not be afraid of it . They should be taught by their parents on how to be around a dog and how to treat it. I don't agree that just because someone does daycare, that they can not have a dog as a pet. It all is how you, as a provider teach the kids about your dog,how to pet it and behave around it. I have a cat, a very friendly cat and I teach the kids how to pet her nicely,how to not bother her when she is eating or sleeping,how to watch out to not step on her paws etc. She is very good with the kids, they love her,give her hugs and kisses and I believe that having a pet around is a very good learning experience for the kids. Parents know when they come for the interview that I have a cat, if they don't like that, then they can go elsewhere. But I will let no one tell me just because I do daycare that I am not allowed to have a pet. I would not do daycare if that was what I had to do. This is reaching far here, but it is like someone telling me that I would have to make a choice if I wanted to have my own children or have a pet because someone says that children should not be around animals,now that is stupid I know, but that is what some of you are saying. YOU have to TEACH children how to act around them, show them how to treat them, and not make them afraid of them by not letting them around a animal,it is your responsibility if you have a dog to teach the child. I think it is so unfair to put a dog in a room or outside while kids are in your care, not fair to the animal! If you have to do that, then DON"T have a dog. But to say that kids should not be allowed to be around a dog is not fair. I repeat this, it is how well you know your dog and how you teach the kids in your daycare to treat your dog and YOU have to take the time to do this. Take their little hands and show them how to pet nice and sit with them while they are by your dog and show the dog and the child that this is the way we treat them. Dogs and cats sniff people at first to see what they are like and to get to know their scent, so let the dog sniff the child and tell the child that its ok and that is the way the dog gets to know them. It takes a little work, but don't let children miss out on learning about animals and to be around them and not to be afraid of them. It is a great learning experience for them and should not be denied. I said my piece,just had to get it out, but think it is a little unfair to say that just because a person does daycare that they should not have a pet or let kids learn and experience being around one. I guess you can tell I am a animal lover,but I would never be without one as they bring so much happiness and joy in our lives.

[Willow]

I'll add just for contrast:

http://pointing-lab.com/gmpr-mpr-ipr-cp-cashzingers-cattail-corky/

We got one of our Labs from this breeder and he is a direct decendent of Corky. Labs can look like marshmallows (and most do) or they can look like they're on steroids ready to rip your arm off, like Corky. Seriously, do a mind crop of his ears and he looks no different than the white dog you posted. When we picked up our pup there was a started dog there named Trojan who was even more astonishingly.....just........massively muscled out HUGE.

Just like most Labs don't look like Corky or Trojan even in their prime, most "pit bull types" don't look as beefy as the pictures you shared. 90% of that muscling is diet and conditioning. No dog is born looking like that as far as either breed is concerned and most never do even if the owner does their best to make it happen. Both are extremist examples.