Naptime

[jen]

Janet, Crystal's husband is her full time assistant which really makes a HUGE difference. It is easy for her to talk about what she does "without complaint" because she isn't doing it alone. I too can have 14 kids with an assistant, but getting 14full time kids here is pretty tough. Paying an assistant on less than 14 kids is impossible. It really isn't a fair comparison and truthfully I (sorry Crystal) think she should stop making it.

For me personally, if I did 11 or 12 hours per day without an adequate break I wouldn't have enough of myself left over to give to my kids and nothing is worth that.

[Crystal]

Janet....please do not think that my debate with you indicates that I think you are unprofessional....I don't think that at all.

I think the suggestion of termination is quite common, but when I read it I also realize that the provider suggesting would probably never actually do it themselves, it's just quick, simple advice....but realistically if we did terminate over issues like this one, we would not be able to maintain a childcare program, because we would never be able to keep all of our spaces filled. And, I realize that on this topic, I am probably a little to outspoken on it, because it really IRRITATES me how often I hear providers say "terminate" when it is not in the child's best interest. And, it's not just here that I hear it....other forums, as well as IRL, I hear it all the time.

So, with that being said, I will back off and try not to continue this debate.....and we can all continue to do what works best for ourselves, our own families and our daycare children.

[Crystal]

Janet, Crystal's husband is her full time assistant which really makes a HUGE difference. It is easy for her to talk about what she does "without complaint" because she isn't doing it alone. I too can have 14 kids with an assistant, but getting 14full time kids here is pretty tough. Paying an assistant on less than 14 kids is impossible. It really isn't a fair comparison and truthfully I (sorry Crystal) think she should stop making it.

For me personally, if I did 11 or 12 hours per day without an adequate break I wouldn't have enough of myself left over to give to my kids and nothing is worth that.

This is correct. And, I do realize that having help does make it a bit easier for me. BUT, I also have 14 children, over half of whom I provide the primary care for, so really it is a fair comaprison. I do just as much work with an assistant, because I care for as many kids as one provider alone. AND, my husband does not do any of the prep work, set up, clean up....his primary job is entertaining children on the playground and handling the financial aspect of the business.

And, I NEVER said I do not get an adequate break each day and NEVER said anybody should not have a break daily. In fact I said that, of course providers need a break, just not a TWO HOUR break.

And, please, don't be sorry, no reason to be, I am not at all offended by what you said!

[Janet]

Lord help me...

LMAO! My husband just came in the door early from work and woke up my dcg that was sleeping! It's only funny today because it's Friday and she's my only kid today. He wasn't even loud, he just quietly opened the door!

This house ****s!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Crystal]

LMAO! My husband just came in the door early from work and woke up my dcg that was sleeping! It's only funny today because it's Friday and she's my only kid today. He wasn't even loud, he just quietly opened the door!

This house ****s!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

awwww geez, figures huh? That sux

[nannyde]

Hey, I'm just offering ideas. It's worked for me on my toughest kid, and has worked on the more "average" ones as well that need some help learning how to fall asleep. I do wean them off of it over the course of a week or two. No, it won't work for every kid, but nothing ever will. It's just an idea ... no need to shoot it down without having tried it yourself. We all have our own methods, and I think we need to respect that about each other.

I'm just having a hard time seeing how you putting your arms and body OVER a kid and not bracing yourself so they would just be touching your arms or body would be enough to stop them from pushing into your body. The impression you are giving is that you aren't touching them but in reality if they touch you and you don't relinquish that position and allow them to "move thru" your position then you are holding them down.

If the child "touches" your arms, legs, or upper body are you moving away so they can move?

[professionalmom]

I know that some people have techniques that they employ that work for them and that's great. However, there are children out there that are stubborn beyond belief, especially at nap or bedtime. Back in the day, long before I became a mom and daycare provider, I was the free babysitter for my gigantic family. I had a 9 mth old niece that I had to hold at bedtime. She would sleep with me and I would have my arms around her. I wanted to have that much control because I didn't want her to crawl near the edge and fall off the bed. Everytime she started to move, I gave her a gentle squeeze. This went on for 45 minutes before she finally gave up and fell asleep. 9 months old!!! 45 minutes!!! Talk about stamina. However, I do have to admit, she was a red-head, just like me. And we are a stubborn, yet feisty bunch! Some people may have other names for us, but I like "feisty".

As for DC kids, I did have a few where the moms did not want to work with me. Actually, they were purposely setting me up for disaster one day a week. Although I use my nap break to do paperwork and housework, I never considered the nap problem an inconvenience to ME. It was an inconvenience to EVERYONE ELSE. If the non-napper/screamer keeps everyone else awake, everyone else will be cranky and combative. Then the hitting, kicking, pushing, etc starts and someone can get hurt. If they get their naps in at the regular time, all of that is diverted and everyone is pretty much safe. Then there's been the problem where I had DD in her room for nap at the regular daycare nap time and DCB refused to go to sleep because DCM let him sleep in until 9:30 - 10am. So, of course he wouldn't be able to sleep at noon. But he would fall asleep around 2p, just as my DD wakes up. So my dilemma was, do I bring her down stairs to play and wake up DCB who will then be a grouch all evening and probably hit my DD OR do I keep DD up in her room for an ADDITIONAL 2 hours to allow DCB to get the rest he needs now. That would mean I would leave my DD in her room for 4 hours almost straight through. No way will I do that to my child. DCM thought that this was my problem and that I just needed to DEAL with it. No, my house, my rules. Plus, I am not sacrificing my child for a DCK, especially since I do not give DD any special treatment over the DCKs.

The bottom line was that this one kid would disrupt everything for the entire day just because ONE selfish DCM wanted to sleep in. And I use the word selfish because what else do you call it when 1 person thinks that 5 entire families have to have their schedules disrupted for the 1 person who views their WANTS as more important. If you want a caregiver to cater to your every whim and alteration in your child's schedule, hire a nanny or baby sitter. This is daycare. This is group care. We are not telling you WHAT to do at home. We are only telling you how you can make the transition better for YOUR CHILD. Either work with us or your child will be distraught and upset by the vast difference in home care and daycare.

Concerned parents will want to make the transition easier for their child. Period. But the parents who don't want to make adjustments, will find the adjustment to school EXTREMELY difficult. Because schools will not put up with "MY CHILD does such and such at home."

[Former Teacher]

In the wise words of Judy...NEXT!

Without trying to sound nasty and I am sure it will come out as nasty but by all means I am not...its comments like this that do make me question why some providers even HAVE clients. When you terminate a child because the child doesn't take a freakin NAP, I wonder about how they are able to stay in business if they are (or would) terminating a child even over the stupidest things IE a child not napping.

[Daycare Mommy]

Without trying to sound nasty and I am sure it will come out as nasty but by all means I am not...its comments like this that do make me question why some providers even HAVE clients. When you terminate a child because the child doesn't take a freakin NAP, I wonder about how they are able to stay in business if they are (or would) terminating a child even over the stupidest things IE a child not napping.

I really don't think that Janet deserves that. We aren't talking about an older kid outgrowing nap; he's only 2, he needs to nap and DOES nap...it's just whenever he pleases due to the fact that the parents never put the time in to teach him how to go to bed. That makes in-home childcare with a group very tricky. The OP probably can't get her naptime work done which may not be the end of the world to some (especially those lucky enough to have an assistant or extremely low ratios by choice), but 2-yr-olds don't have volume control so you have to worry about him waking the others, and also how fair is that to the other children? They are lying down and doing their quiet time nap or reading or whatever and this kid is at the table doing special activities and whatnot. Then it's time for the kids to wake up and this other kid who's been catered to all of naptime is just passing out so now they can't go outside to play in the sprinkler or go to the library like they'd planned on. That's so unfair to the others and wouldn't be acceptable in my daycare either. He's very young, not adjusting despite the OP's efforts for the last 4 weeks, and his parents won't help her by giving him a bedtime routine at home despite the OP's repeated requests. I don't think Janet's comment was uncalled for. The way she put it was blunt, but I agree with her. If the parent's won't help at this point I'd term and start advertising too. And FYI I have clients because I love working with children and have a lot to offer the families who come to me. Just because someone requires a 2 yr old to nap doesn't mean they shouldn't be in daycare.

[Former Teacher]

I really don't think that Janet deserves that. We aren't talking about an older kid outgrowing nap; he's only 2, he needs to nap and DOES nap...it's just whenever he pleases due to the fact that the parents never put the time in to teach him how to go to bed. That makes in-home childcare with a group very tricky. The OP probably can't get her naptime work done which may not be the end of the world to some (especially those lucky enough to have an assistant or extremely low ratios by choice), but 2-yr-olds don't have volume control so you have to worry about him waking the others, and also how fair is that to the other children? They are lying down and doing their quiet time nap or reading or whatever and this kid is at the table doing special activities and whatnot. Then it's time for the kids to wake up and this other kid who's been catered to all of naptime is just passing out so now they can't go outside to play in the sprinkler or go to the library like they'd planned on. That's so unfair to the others and wouldn't be acceptable in my daycare either. He's very young, not adjusting despite the OP's efforts for the last 4 weeks, and his parents won't help her by giving him a bedtime routine at home despite the OP's repeated requests. I don't think Janet's comment was uncalled for. The way she put it was blunt, but I agree with her. If the parent's won't help at this point I'd term and start advertising too. And FYI I have clients because I love working with children and have a lot to offer the families who come to me. Just because someone requires a 2 yr old to nap doesn't mean they shouldn't be in daycare.

I was not directing my post TO Janet. I said comments LIKE that. I guess I was always taught in my daycare years never give up on a child, no matter what. Some children adjust to different things differently than other children. We once had a boy in child care who cried every day when he was dropped off for over 18 months. He was fine once the day went on but the the next day would start all over again.

No matter if its either a home daycare or a center, to term a child because of them not sleeping is IMO ridiculous.

[DBug]

I'm just having a hard time seeing how you putting your arms and body OVER a kid and not bracing yourself so they would just be touching your arms or body would be enough to stop them from pushing into your body. The impression you are giving is that you aren't touching them but in reality if they touch you and you don't relinquish that position and allow them to "move thru" your position then you are holding them down.

If the child "touches" your arms, legs, or upper body are you moving away so they can move?

Honestly, I've never had a child squirm to try to get away or get off the cot while in this position (even the wild child). They might wiggle a bit, but when they accidently bump me, they pull back immediately. My face is about a foot away from theirs, I maintain eye contact and remind them repeatedly that it's nap time. After a few minutes of stroking their little faces, their eyes get heavy and they fall asleep. With the "wild child" I did hold him in my lap while I was putting the others to sleep, but he would have climbed the gate and escaped the building or hopped the gate to the upstairs bathroom if given half a chance, so I figured holding him in my lap was for his own safety. But I never had to keep him on the cot. I really think he needed the physical contact to calm down and relax enough to go to sleep. Being in my lap for that long provided the transition -- he had a single mom, dad was up on murder charges, maybe he was missing out on some cuddling at home? I think it's always a good idea to consider what the child's going through and how to best help him or her.

In the OP's situation, this little one would probably benefit a great deal from having a structured day. Yes, 4 weeks is pushing it, but I think I'd probably try to tough it out. However, if it's causing more stress than it's worth, I may change my mind

[jen]

I was not directing my post TO Janet. I said comments LIKE that. I guess I was always taught in my daycare years never give up on a child, no matter what. Some children adjust to different things differently than other children. We once had a boy in child care who cried every day when he was dropped off for over 18 months. He was fine once the day went on but the the next day would start all over again.

No matter if its either a home daycare or a center, to term a child because of them not sleeping is IMO ridiculous.

OK...please explain something to me...

Why do you think that a provider should spend months on a child who is disrupting everyone elses day? Truly, explain to me why I should allow one child to keep 6 other children awake?

If a child doesn't sleep on a daily basis and I have to spend my time attending to that child, I cannot get supplies ordered or the dishes done, that takes away time from my children in the evening....WHY do you think that is OK.

Has it occurred to you that as an employee at a child care center you simply left at the end of the day? You didn't need to clean up or order supplies...you just went home and that was the end of it? An employee at a daycare center is NOT the same as home daycare. I don't get to punch out at the end of the day. I have to order supplies, prepare curriculum and clean up. If it doesn't happen during the day, it must happen at night. I don't understand how some people don't get that or why in the world they think it is OK to make my own child suffer for the sake of someone elses!

Good grief!

[Former Teacher]

OK...please explain something to me...

Why do you think that a provider should spend months on a child who is disrupting everyone elses day? Truly, explain to me why I should allow one child to keep 6 other children awake?

If a child doesn't sleep on a daily basis and I have to spend my time attending to that child, I cannot get supplies ordered or the dishes done, that takes away time from my children in the evening....WHY do you think that is OK.

Has it occurred to you that as an employee at a child care center you simply left at the end of the day? You didn't need to clean up or order supplies...you just went home and that was the end of it? An employee at a daycare center is NOT the same as home daycare. I don't get to punch out at the end of the day. I have to order supplies, prepare curriculum and clean up. If it doesn't happen during the day, it must happen at night. I don't understand how some people don't get that or why in the world they think it is OK to make my own child suffer for the sake of someone elses!

Good grief!

Oh brother….

First of all FYI, my day did NOT end after I “punched” out. I, too, had to prepare MY OWN curriculum on my own time including weekends (and not being paid for it). No I didn’t have to do the dishes as the cook did that after lunch. No I didn’t have to order supplies either. However yes I DID have to prepare the center (not to mention my own classroom) for the next day. Yes I did most of this during the 2 hours of nap. Yes not all the children slept. The few ones who didn’t I would let them get up and “help” me provided they were still quiet.

There was a 5 year old girl who missed the kinder age cut off. She was growing out of her naps. This child was at the center at 6:30 a.m. She got up at 5:30 am! You would think by 12:30 or so she would be exhausted. Not at all. Mom said she was in bed by 8:00. She was just that type of child In the beginning she would play and get loud. I just explained to her that if she wanted to help me, and in turn get up, then she must be quiet and wait until everyone was asleep. She did. And she was great about it. Granted, she was 5 and this little one we are talking about is younger but still.

Is it aggravating that a child doesn’t sleep? Of course it is! However it is not the end of the world….you can work around it WITHOUT terming the child!!!!!

[QualiTcare]

i've always laid them down and walked away. i didn't hold and cuddle my own kids to sleep and i don't do it with anyone else's - they should be able to self soothe.

if a kid gets up - i would pick them up, take them back to the mat, lay them down and say "NO. go to sleep" and walk away. if they get right back up, pick them up, lay them down on the mat and say nothing. you might have to do it 25 times, but they will realize they aren't going to win and give up. screamers and cryers - ignore them completely. they will wear themselves out and fall asleep - and realize that you don't care. you probably WILL care and it'll drive you nuts, but you can't let them know. get some ear plugs if you have to and say NOTHING and don't look at them. i guarantee they'll catch on quick. i think you need to stop doing the back rubbing with this kid. apparently nice doesn't work with him.

Former teacher - I know exactly what you mean. some people seem to think kids are disposable and parents are just HORRIBLE all the way around. i've wondered the same thing myself - why are you doing this?

Crystal - you're right. having an assisant has nothing to do with ANYTHING because you HAVE to have an assistant with that many kids. there's nothing "lucky" about it. i'm pretty sure people who don't have their husband's help also have a second income from their husband doing another job away from home - that's so lucky!!

[jen]

You know what I think is interesting. I have NEVER had a child leave to go to another daycare. In 8 years I've had 2 families move and the rest have been here until the kids no longer needed care. Even the family I recently terminated sent me a thank you note!

I have terminated 4 families. I always do my best to work with the parents and the child, but if it isn't working, and it is distracting me from the other kids, then I simply move on. It's not that they are disposable, they just aren't a good fit and it's stupid to be irritated and stressed about it. Personally, I think its the reason why I don't get burned out. I don't have some crazy notion that I have to make it work with every family. I do my best and most of the time that is MORE than enough. We all have our things we can and cannot deal with. My ADD kid doesn't bother me at all...not the looping, not the hyperness, not the stuttering...all stuff I am perfectly capable of addressing. His parent's are always saying what a "blessing" I am to thier family after having so many poor fits daycare wise. A two year old that won't nap doesn't work for me...so what!

I will never understand why that upsets some of you so much!