Demanding Infant

[Cradle2crayons]

No, I don't think it's too early. As long as you are gentle about it.

Babies are born with the ability to fall asleep. That part is not a learned skill. Your LO has learned she needs lots of help to fall asleep. She is competent to do this; you just have to help her get there and trust her.

You, as a parent, can decide that it's just too early, or feels to harsh. But, it's a trade off. She cries less for you, but at daycare, where they can't replicate one-on-one (or two-on-one, for that matter) care, she's crying MORE.

Im working with a set of parents to sleep train their 4.5 month old. They were very open to my suggestions and I can tell they are doing their part at home.

It really has to be a partnership and a willingness on both parts to come to a resolution that really IS better for the kiddo and all parties involved.

[Heidi]

Im working with a set of parents to sleep train their 4.5 month old. They were very open to my suggestions and I can tell they are doing their part at home.

It really has to be a partnership and a willingness on both parts to come to a resolution that really IS better for the kiddo and all parties involved.

Yes!

I am going to go back to my original point, which was that if she's crying hard enough to bust a vein, she is really struggling at daycare. She may NEVER cry at home; but the trade off, she's BUSTING A VEIN because she's so overwhelmed by the home/daycare disparity.

So, if she is too young to "sleep train", then she's too young to leave mom/dad at all, or she needs a one-on-one caregiver. That's my take on it.

[cheerfuldom]

I would add that it will get worse before it gets better. At this point, she is most certainly sleep deprived and it is showing. At that age, I would have a daycare child sleeping three naps from 90 minutes to 2 hours each (in a 10 hour period). If you can get the sleep worked out, I assure you you will see a huge difference.

Also, dont be too hard on yourself! This isnt going to happen overnight. And an experienced provider will have seen more than their fair share of crying babies so I would bet the caregivers tolerance is about 100 times more than what you (and wife) can handle. A crying baby is no big deal at daycare. Not to minimize your concern, only to point out that you dont need to worry so much about the provider thinking your child is too needy. For four months, she sounds perfectly on track....that is the age where babies need some help falling into predictable sleep patterns. Sleep isn't learned.....but good sleep habits ARE learned behaviors.

[KatiesCorner]

You've already taken a great first step by recognizing that this behavior is taxing on everyone involved, and reaching out for support. I worked in an infant room at a center for six years, and in my experience if the parents acknowledged that their child was fussy, and expressed gratitude to us, instead of being defensive or trying to insinuate we were to blame, then putting up with the crying was much easier. A larger center makes it easier to have cranky babies, because when the crying gets to much for one teacher, another one can step in. Our director used to take babies for walks inside the building just to give us, and the baby, a little break.
So even though it may not make her cry less, it might make the teachers feel better if you continue to keep open communication lines, and let them know you are working on it at home. Also, remember that soon she will learn to sit up, and that can really help a baby calm down, because she's entertained just by having a bigger field of vision. Hold out hope that it will help her a little.
Then, as for sleeping, have you tried white noise? You could test it with a hair dryer, or a white noise app on your phone. Even static on the radio. Some babies just need that extra distraction, and it can become a cue for her if you are implementing a sleep time routine. Also, is she swaddled or in a woombie? If she can use those at daycare (not in my state, but some) that could help as well. And remember that babies and children feed off of our emotions, so if you or your wife is feeling stressed while you are by her crib trying to sooth her, it could backfire. Even with my preschoolers, I often had to make an effort to breath deeply, block out the thoughts of "Why won't they just sleep?" and pretend that it wasn't important if they slept or not.
While awake, keep trying to get her to play on her own. Lay down next to her, manipulate the toys so she sees how they work, and just get her used to being on the ground. Perhaps if she get used to being there with you, she won't feel alone when you move away?
I applaud you for taking the initiative to fix this, and hope you can hang in there. This too shall pass. (Sorry this was so long!)

[Elko]

Babies are born with the ability to fall asleep. That part is not a learned skill. Your LO has learned she needs lots of help to fall asleep. She is competent to do this; you just have to help her get there and trust her.

Eek, this is simply not true. If you want to sleep-train, please use a gentle method before 6 months, and do a lot of research on babies and sleep beforehand.

I understand that gentler parenting methods don't always mesh with daycare; but it sounds like you (and your wife?) are ok with training. I have nothing against it per se, but please don't be fooled into thinking that babies are born knowing how to sleep on their own and we somehow mess them up by comforting them when they cry and are clearly showing signs of distress (most babies need some help to sleep, it's a simple fact).

There are plenty of daycares out there whose staff are willing to put some time and energy into helping babies (and even toddlers!) get to sleep in a peaceful manner; it's not mandatory that a baby cry it out in order to fit into a daycare provider's schedule.

[JoseyJo]

Eek, this is simply not true... I have nothing against it per se, but please don't be fooled into thinking that babies are born knowing how to sleep on their own and we somehow mess them up by comforting them when they cry and are clearly showing signs of distress (most babies need some help to sleep, it's a simple fact)

It IS absolutely true that babies are born knowing how to sleep. It is just common sense. Do you think that they don't sleep while they are in utero? They have been self soothing for many months before they are even born!

I know you are a new first time mom, but something that you will hopefully eventually learn is that we are always training our children. The only question is, what are we training them to do? If we hold them and cuddle them and feed them to sleep, we teach them that they NEED these things to be able to sleep. Teaching a child to self soothe is one of the best gifts that we can ever give them.

[Elko]

Do not put me down for being a first time mom. I'm 35, completely literate, and supplied with a great set of instincts. Which I listen to, rather than suppressing in order to fit my baby into my busy life.

Babies in utero are rocked and swaddled to sleep by the womb and movement of mom. Do you really think a baby just left on it's back, day one, no swaddle, no comfort, nothing, is likely to just drift off to sleep? That we're just weak women being controlled by our manipulative infants?

Children left to do so on their own timeline will eventually learn to self soothe. If that's taking too long (as it does for most modern people in modern society ) we can sleep-train. But it's NOT the only option, and NOT necessary to do if the parents don't want or need to.

I honestly have nothing against parents who decide to sleep train; it's just not feasible for everyone to continue to give their child the help they need to sleep for as long as they need it. It may not be feasible for me, but only because of daycare. It's worked fine up until now (almost 2)!

What I do have a problem with is the idea that the only option is to force a baby (especially one under 6 months!) to "learn" how to sleep on their own. Many daycares are open to helping children of all ages get to sleep by spending a few to several minutes rubbing their backs in a calm environment. Yes, they all adjust to the routine, and that REALLY helps, but not all babies are required to be trained to sleep on their own with no help.

This dad doesn't sound like he wants to take forever letting his child learn to self-soothe on her own, and I understand that, but 4 months is too young to be leaving a baby alone to cry who obviously needs some help sleeping.

[ACH247]

Do not put me down for being a first time mom. I'm 35, completely literate, and supplied with a great set of instincts. Which I listen to, rather than suppressing in order to fit my baby into my busy life.

Babies in utero are rocked and swaddled to sleep by the womb and movement of mom. Do you really think a baby just left on it's back, day one, no swaddle, no comfort, nothing, is likely to just drift off to sleep? That we're just weak women being controlled by our manipulative infants?

Children left to do so on their own timeline will eventually learn to self soothe. If that's taking too long (as it does for most modern people in modern society ) we can sleep-train. But it's NOT the only option, and NOT necessary to do if the parents don't want or need to.

I honestly have nothing against parents who decide to sleep train; it's just not feasible for everyone to continue to give their child the help they need to sleep for as long as they need it. It may not be feasible for me, but only because of daycare. It's worked fine up until now (almost 2)!

What I do have a problem with is the idea that the only option is to force a baby (especially one under 6 months!) to "learn" how to sleep on their own. Many daycares are open to helping children of all ages get to sleep by spending a few to several minutes rubbing their backs in a calm environment. Yes, they all adjust to the routine, and that REALLY helps, but not all babies are required to be trained to sleep on their own with no help.

This dad doesn't sound like he wants to take forever letting his child learn to self-soothe on her own, and I understand that, but 4 months is too young to be leaving a baby alone to cry who obviously needs some help sleeping.

I agree with this. I think 4 months is too young.

I also don't believe in cry it out so I could be biased.

[Silly Songs]

Interesting views on this . Because I am in a center , even though I work with 3 and 4 year olds, all of us have training on infant development . I'm going to look over my paperwork and join this conversation a little later .

[Heidi]

Do not put me down for being a first time mom. I'm 35, completely literate, and supplied with a great set of instincts. Which I listen to, rather than suppressing in order to fit my baby into my busy life.

Babies in utero are rocked and swaddled to sleep by the womb and movement of mom. Do you really think a baby just left on it's back, day one, no swaddle, no comfort, nothing, is likely to just drift off to sleep? That we're just weak women being controlled by our manipulative infants?

Children left to do so on their own timeline will eventually learn to self soothe. If that's taking too long (as it does for most modern people in modern society ) we can sleep-train. But it's NOT the only option, and NOT necessary to do if the parents don't want or need to.

I honestly have nothing against parents who decide to sleep train; it's just not feasible for everyone to continue to give their child the help they need to sleep for as long as they need it. It may not be feasible for me, but only because of daycare. It's worked fine up until now (almost 2)!

What I do have a problem with is the idea that the only option is to force a baby (especially one under 6 months!) to "learn" how to sleep on their own. Many daycares are open to helping children of all ages get to sleep by spending a few to several minutes rubbing their backs in a calm environment. Yes, they all adjust to the routine, and that REALLY helps, but not all babies are required to be trained to sleep on their own with no help.

This dad doesn't sound like he wants to take forever letting his child learn to self-soothe on her own, and I understand that, but 4 months is too young to be leaving a baby alone to cry who obviously needs some help sleeping.

See, at NO point would I suggest that they just throw her in bed, walk away, and say "whatever, she'll sleep".

In the 3 elaborations I made on my suggestions, I used the word gentle about 50 times, I think (I'm not rereading them now, so that's a wild guess:.

I DO believe babies are born with the ability to fall asleep. But of course, conditions need to be right. Every baby in our area is sent home with a swaddle sack (which we can also use under our regs). We are also able to use blankets, as long as they are secured around the crib mattress. Some of the providers in other states can't even do that. It honestly doesn't even sound remotely cozy to me.

In the first couple weeks, there is so much sleeping, it's hard to separate the sleeping, feeding, and eliminating. But slowly, there is a point when baby is laid down, that some fuss or protest instead of just dozing off.

That is the turning point. That is when a parent can either do the most possible in terms of intervention right away, or they can stand back and observe. They can gently place a hand on baby's tummy and take a moment to figure out what baby needs, support and communicate vs. immediate rescue.

I can't tell you how many 3-4 month old children I've seen crying while parents are jiggling, bouncing, and shushing them in a public place or a room full of people. Baby is just getting more and more wound up, and no one is listening to why.

If I take that same infant into a quiet, cool room, lay her on her back, cover her securely, offer a pacifier or thumb or fist, and put gentle pressure on her tummy, I'd bet money MOST of them will be calm/alert or asleep in less than 10 minutes. I've had babies in my program who's parents tell me "she won't sleep", and yet they sleep here. All alone, in a bed, no rocking or nursing to sleep (full belly, a good burp or two, and a clean diaper).

Last year, I had one who I termed because while she slept perfectly and without fussing for me, her parents were sure that she didn't sleep at home because of my daycare practices. WAIT...WHAT? She also nursed for hours because I was overfeeding her (5 oz every 3-4 hours, on demand). :confused:

She's 22 months old now, they sometimes visit, and mom recently shared that they spent a half of a night driving around the countryside because she wouldn't sleep. Well, I guess that was my fault too?

There is no one way to do "this". The man asked for advice. I gave him mine based on 24 years of experience as a mother and DCP working with several dozen infants. He can take it or not take it; that's his choice.

[Cradle2crayons]

See, at NO point would I suggest that they just throw her in bed, walk away, and say "whatever, she'll sleep".

In the 3 elaborations I made on my suggestions, I used the word gentle about 50 times, I think (I'm not rereading them now, so that's a wild guess:.

I DO believe babies are born with the ability to fall asleep. But of course, conditions need to be right. Every baby in our area is sent home with a swaddle sack (which we can also use under our regs). We are also able to use blankets, as long as they are secured around the crib mattress. Some of the providers in other states can't even do that. It honestly doesn't even sound remotely cozy to me.

In the first couple weeks, there is so much sleeping, it's hard to separate the sleeping, feeding, and eliminating. But slowly, there is a point when baby is laid down, that some fuss or protest instead of just dozing off.

That is the turning point. That is when a parent can either do the most possible in terms of intervention right away, or they can stand back and observe. They can gently place a hand on baby's tummy and take a moment to figure out what baby needs, support and communicate vs. immediate rescue.

I can't tell you how many 3-4 month old children I've seen crying while parents are jiggling, bouncing, and shushing them in a public place or a room full of people. Baby is just getting more and more wound up, and no one is listening to why.

If I take that same infant into a quiet, cool room, lay her on her back, cover her securely, offer a pacifier or thumb or fist, and put gentle pressure on her tummy, I'd bet money MOST of them will be calm/alert or asleep in less than 10 minutes. I've had babies in my program who's parents tell me "she won't sleep", and yet they sleep here. All alone, in a bed, no rocking or nursing to sleep (full belly, a good burp or two, and a clean diaper).

Last year, I had one who I termed because while she slept perfectly and without fussing for me, her parents were sure that she didn't sleep at home because of my daycare practices. WAIT...WHAT? She also nursed for hours because I was overfeeding her (5 oz every 3-4 hours, on demand). :confused:

She's 22 months old now, they sometimes visit, and mom recently shared that they spent a half of a night driving around the countryside because she wouldn't sleep. Well, I guess that was my fault too?

There is no one way to do "this". The man asked for advice. I gave him mine based on 24 years of experience as a mother and DCP working with several dozen infants. He can take it or not take it; that's his choice.

this exactly.

[Elko]

I was mostly replying to Josie Jo, who implied that I'm a clueless first time mom being manipulated by my baby, and I can't be expected to understand unless I work for years with other peoples' children.

I'm just saying, all babies are different in what they need, and it's too simplistic to say that one method will work for all babies. My point is it's not necessary to train babies to sleep on their own. They'll figure it out on their own, even if you cater to their every "whim" (Everyone also disagrees as to what is considered a need vs. a whim when it comes to comfort, but it's not really important to my point).

Most people don't have the ability to just wait it out though, especially if they need to put their child in daycare. Most babies will accept different, and even less comfort from a provider than they will from their parents. It's just how it is. So even though you are obviously skilled and knowledgable in your field, it's not fair to claim that parents are causing sleeping issues in their infants and you can almost always fix them. It's not accurate.

We have an infant whose parents definitely don't coddle him, but he sleeps almost instantly for us and takes a lot longer for them. That should not be seen as manipulation, but a baby knowing who his parents are, and feeling comfortable asking for more time and comfort from them.

I agree that this dad is looking for advice on training, and I'm just giving a different perspective. I know, even though I'd love to think everyone wants my super unique and interesting point of view, that's not really the case. But maybe it's partly selfish. I'd like more people to know that there are other ways to do things, so people like me won't feel bullied about our parenting as often (yes that sounds dramatic, but it's how it feels. Not here, in real life).

[Blackcat31]

Do not put me down for being a first time mom. I'm 35, completely literate, and supplied with a great set of instincts. Which I listen to, rather than suppressing in order to fit my baby into my busy life.

I was mostly replying to Josie Jo, who implied that I'm a clueless first time mom being manipulated by my baby, and I can't be expected to understand unless I work for years with other peoples' children.

I didn't read anywhere in JosieJo's reply that she was putting you down for being a first time mom or implying you were clueless :confused:

[Blackcat31]

Here is some really good info about sleep and babies

http://www.pediatricservices.com/parents/pc-13.htm

[Heidi]

I was mostly replying to Josie Jo, who implied that I'm a clueless first time mom being manipulated by my baby, and I can't be expected to understand unless I work for years with other peoples' children.

I'm just saying, all babies are different in what they need, and it's too simplistic to say that one method will work for all babies. My point is it's not necessary to train babies to sleep on their own. They'll figure it out on their own, even if you cater to their every "whim" (Everyone also disagrees as to what is considered a need vs. a whim when it comes to comfort, but it's not really important to my point).

Most people don't have the ability to just wait it out though, especially if they need to put their child in daycare. Most babies will accept different, and even less comfort from a provider than they will from their parents. It's just how it is. So even though you are obviously skilled and knowledgable in your field, it's not fair to claim that parents are causing sleeping issues in their infants and you can almost always fix them. It's not accurate.

We have an infant whose parents definitely don't coddle him, but he sleeps almost instantly for us and takes a lot longer for them. That should not be seen as manipulation, but a baby knowing who his parents are, and feeling comfortable asking for more time and comfort from them.

I agree that this dad is looking for advice on training, and I'm just giving a different perspective. I know, even though I'd love to think everyone wants my super unique and interesting point of view, that's not really the case. But maybe it's partly selfish. I'd like more people to know that there are other ways to do things, so people like me won't feel bullied about our parenting as often (yes that sounds dramatic, but it's how it feels. Not here, in real life).

I absolutely support your methods. As long as they work for you and your child, you should do what you feel is best and people should mind their own business.

However; there are a few situations I don't understand (not directed at you, just random other people).

First, folks who use these AP techniques, but then complain about their lack of sleep, how drained they are, or how their marriage is suffering because mom wants baby in the bed and dad is sleeping on a twin in the other room. I think they co-sleep because it's easiest in the short run and then sort of get stuck. KWIM? I have a hard time with people being martyrs, I guess.

I will also say that the argument that children learn different things at home and daycare is valid to a point. But, if a baby is capable of learning all that, why aren't they capable of learning to sleep without intervention? I'd also say that while it can happen, it's usually much harder on the baby. Consistency and predictability is way easier on the kid than extremes, and the younger the more that's true. The toddlers I have here are way different with their parents (mostly whinier) than with me, but the youngest ones do better with consistency.

If you doubt that, search for "sleep problems" on this board, and you'll find one after the other after the other of threads where a provider has a 4, 5, 6, 8, or 11 month old that won't sleep, cries endlessly, and is driving someone bonkers. ::

Elko, you sound like a wonderful mom, and I don't think anyone here is arguing that you should do anything different. She's YOUR child, not ours. Those people that may try to suggest that it's an experience thing are not saying you're stupid. They're coming from a different place is all. Taking care of one child of your own for 2 years is a very different experience than taking care of 4-10 children year after year.

So, we just all have different perspectives. I can guarantee that at some point in your life, you will look at another parent (probably your own daughter) and say "yep, I could have told you that, but you wouldn't believe me...".