Paying Full Tuition When the Daycare Closes for a Snow Day...Is This Fair?

[SnowDayMom]

:: *I like you you *

No, I am genuinely curious.

...and I am not a read between the lines kind of provider. I am pretty black and white...and very transparent.

Sometimes that leaves my foot in my mouth but I am who I am and will apologize if I offend but take responsibility for all I say and do.....even when I am in the wrong.

So no. There is no hidden message or anything like that...just genuinely curious. I can't help that part of me...

I started this profession accidentally. I was on the same path as you.... and suddenly found myself here.

BlackCat: okay cool. happyface

Honestly I never participate in things like this but I was already feeling impassioned about this issue (which is why I searched it out on the internet) and I was planning on talking to my daycare about it. I looked it up because I wanted to know if I was missing something in my thinking. Boy, now I'm totally prepared for the discussion!

But once I got here and saw some of the original responders (back in 2010) being flippant to the parents who were complaining about this policy and then backing up their responses with what I thought were weak arguments, I couldn't resist jumping in.

And then the lawyer in me loves a good debate, so that helps drive my interest in responding. Plus the lawyer in me also makes me a natural ADVOCATE, so if I *can* influence some folks in the daycare industry to think twice about this policy, then that seems worth it to me too.

Being a lawyer isn't all it's cracked up to be. I loved law school, but you have to really want to work ALL THE TIME to be a typical lawyer. I actually negotiate contracts for a living, which I enjoy, but I would have a serious discussion with any youngster who wanted to be a lawyer.

[Unregistered]

Wow, if you could put all this effort in convincing someone about being morally fair into some bigger issue that really mattered...you would be one hellava lawyer.

[blandino]

So I have read most of the responses, and I just want to add my two cents.

I close for snow days, when it is declared "a state of emergency". I do this because in case of an emergency, I would not be able to transport a child - and emergency services would not be able to make it to me in a timely manner. I feel like that is to much of a liability to have a child in my care, when emergency transpiration is compromised. We very rarely close for a snow day, so far 1 this winter. But I do charge - BUT all but one parent was already staying home. In that case, I am not able to properly do my job (responsibly offer care for a child) due to the weather. It isn't my fault, and it isn't the parent's fault either. But should I lose income because of the weather, when it is no fault of my own ? To me, it would be the equivalent of an office worker, showing up to work, only to be told the power is out. They need the power to adequately do their job - so without it they cannot preform their duties. They would still be paid for the day. Yes, their employer would lose money - but it wasn't the office worker's fault either. They are ready to do their job, but forces beyond anyone's control stopped that from happening.

Now, I understand your child is in a center. To my knowledge, a center closes more often than home daycares because the employees have to make the (possibly dangerous) drive into work, while home daycare employees (for the most part) are already at the daycare. I can understand the logic behind that. Also, IF they chose to stay open - they could have a disproportionate number of children versus employees able to make it in. What if far more children come in than they have staff to care for them ? Then they risk a major licensing violation. Once again, not their fault and not the parents fault.

If they close and don't charge, they lose money. If they close and charge, the parent loses money. I don't have a good, definite, fair, answer, either way one party winds up losing.

[SnowDayMom]

Alright, I'm losing steam on this (finally), but I think I can find a *lil* bit more for one point.

Blandino, I get what you're saying, but I think it's a bad analogy. You're describing an employee on SALARY. My daycare is not on "salary" from me... What if you work at Macy's and you're not on salary, and you show up one day and Macy's is closed due to a power outage, I'm pretty certain Macy's would NOT pay you that day.

On the other hand, I DO pay by the week. It's not salary, but then it's actually not hourly either...so maybe this is some hybrid situation where there is a point in there somewhere... I'm not sure I have the energy left to ponder deeply (the only kinda pondering I know how to do) on this twist, but at least I can see from your post that it's not just black and white.

Blandino, though, you brought up a REALLY interesting point about bad weather. Part of what irks me is that the daycare center is closed when other businesses are open. That drives me crazy. My thinking was, "they don't have to bus the kids anywhere, so how do they justify closing?" But, I hadn't considered that you are RESPONSIBLE for getting the child help in an emergency situation, and so maybe that's a justification for closing when so many other establishments are open.

Now frankly, I'm not 100% sure it's a great argument, because maybe all you're legally responsible to do is call the police/firemen/ambulance and if they can't get to you, it's not your fault. (sorry, I'm thinking strictly about your liability, not whether or not that's a good idea or a "nice" way of thinking!! That's what we lawyers do...think about liability.) But, Blandino, it's a really good point worthy of further pondering...



There are some really great thinkers on here! (and clearly a lot of savvy business owners) So while I have your attention, I'm curious about your thoughts on another situation at my daycare:

This particular center has at least two "Teacher In-service Days" per school year. These are days when they are "closed" (but of course I have to pay) so that their teachers can train, clean, organize, decorate classrooms, etc. As you can imagine, I find this outrageous. I know, I know...you're surprised about that.

*If* they were a private school, I could see this happening. *If* I was paying them for their private kindergarten I can see ****ing it up. Fine. But when my child is an infant, or a preschooler, or whatever, I can't see the justification around having a Teacher In-Service Day. My husband owns his own business--he doesn't "charge" his customers for training his staff, or for a special day of keeping up his offices and warehouses. Sure it's built-in to what he charges, as it should be, but there's not a special day when his customers all have to pony up $50 and don't get service in return because he's training his staff.

I'm starting to recognize why Primrose calls themselves Primrose SCHOOL. Because then they can say, "YOU, SnowDayMom, might see us as a daycare, but you're actually paying for private school for your infant (har har), so that's why we need a teacher in-service day, just like any other SCHOOL."

Also, you can probably see from this that the snow days are not the ONLY area I'm feeling a little taken advantage of here, when I'm already paying for an expensive place as it is (i.e. don't slip extra costs in too, please!). There's also a $50-75 "supply fee" I have to pay at the beginning of every school year. Grrrr.

I know I could change schools, but my hubby thinks it would be too disruptive for my lil girl, and he doesn't have the same sense of personal outrage around perceived "unfairness" as I do.

But within the next year I may "retire" from what I'm doing, and then I'll pull her out and watch her myself. Money will be tight, but then I'll have more free time to spend with my kids, and maybe put some of my energy toward helping others! (as one of your respondents suggested)

[craftymissbeth]

You could always start a new thread for your separate concerns.

As far as your daycare being on salary... yeah, they are, IMO. My husband is on salary and regardless of how much or how little he works his pay is the same. Same idea with your daycare. Regardless of how much or little the daycare is open they get paid the same.

Tbh, you are absolutely not going to be convinced and your opinion is clearly not likely to change about the issue.

Many, many posters have suggested you either find a daycare with policies you agree with 100% or **** it up, buttercup.

[Annalee]

Alright, I'm losing steam on this (finally), but I think I can find a *lil* bit more for one point.

Blandino, I get what you're saying, but I think it's a bad analogy. You're describing an employee on SALARY. My daycare is not on "salary" from me... What if you work at Macy's and you're not on salary, and you show up one day and Macy's is closed due to a power outage, I'm pretty certain Macy's would NOT pay you that day.

On the other hand, I DO pay by the week. It's not salary, but then it's actually not hourly either...so maybe this is some hybrid situation where there is a point in there somewhere... I'm not sure I have the energy left to ponder deeply (the only kinda pondering I know how to do) on this twist, but at least I can see from your post that it's not just black and white.

Blandino, though, you brought up a REALLY interesting point about bad weather. Part of what irks me is that the daycare center is closed when other businesses are open. That drives me crazy. My thinking was, "they don't have to bus the kids anywhere, so how do they justify closing?" But, I hadn't considered that you are RESPONSIBLE for getting the child help in an emergency situation, and so maybe that's a justification for closing when so many other establishments are open.

Now frankly, I'm not 100% sure it's a great argument, because maybe all you're legally responsible to do is call the police/firemen/ambulance and if they can't get to you, it's not your fault. (sorry, I'm thinking strictly about your liability, not whether or not that's a good idea or a "nice" way of thinking!! That's what we lawyers do...think about liability.) But, Blandino, it's a really good point worthy of further pondering...



There are some really great thinkers on here! (and clearly a lot of savvy business owners) So while I have your attention, I'm curious about your thoughts on another situation at my daycare:

This particular center has at least two "Teacher In-service Days" per school year. These are days when they are "closed" (but of course I have to pay) so that their teachers can train, clean, organize, decorate classrooms, etc. As you can imagine, I find this outrageous. I know, I know...you're surprised about that.

*If* they were a private school, I could see this happening. *If* I was paying them for their private kindergarten I can see ****ing it up. Fine. But when my child is an infant, or a preschooler, or whatever, I can't see the justification around having a Teacher In-Service Day. My husband owns his own business--he doesn't "charge" his customers for training his staff, or for a special day of keeping up his offices and warehouses. Sure it's built-in to what he charges, as it should be, but there's not a special day when his customers all have to pony up $50 and don't get service in return because he's training his staff.

I'm starting to recognize why Primrose calls themselves Primrose SCHOOL. Because then they can say, "YOU, SnowDayMom, might see us as a daycare, but you're actually paying for private school for your infant (har har), so that's why we need a teacher in-service day, just like any other SCHOOL."

Also, you can probably see from this that the snow days are not the ONLY area I'm feeling a little taken advantage of here, when I'm already paying for an expensive place as it is (i.e. don't slip extra costs in too, please!). There's also a $50-75 "supply fee" I have to pay at the beginning of every school year. Grrrr.

I know I could change schools, but my hubby thinks it would be too disruptive for my lil girl, and he doesn't have the same sense of personal outrage around perceived "unfairness" as I do.

But within the next year I may "retire" from what I'm doing, and then I'll pull her out and watch her myself. Money will be tight, but then I'll have more free time to spend with my kids, and maybe put some of my energy toward helping others! (as one of your respondents suggested)

I close for all professional days. Right now that is 3 Child Care conferences a year, a Thursday and Friday each time.. And yes, I charge 52 weeks a year but CLEARLY explain this in the interview process. Fair????? maybe, maybe not, but that point is mute because it is MY contract pertinent to MY child care program. With all due respect, contracts are non-negotiable and as a lawyer, you should respect that. Otherwise, why have them if you are NOT going to abide by them.

[Blackcat31]

Now that we've moved on to paid training days/in-service days....I'd like to add that in order for me to do my job and continue caring for your (general you) child I must attend xx amount of training hours per year.

I have to pay for these trainings out of pocket. Travel, meals and whatever else it entails. I also pay for these trainings with loss of personal time with MY family...so that I can continue to offer quality and legal care to client families.

I work 50-55 hours per week ON SITE and another 10 or so after hours and on weekends. Running errands, cleaning and keeping my environment up to code.

I can deduct some of those expenses and claim a little bit of my time (although, how do you place a price tag on loss of time with your own DH or child) but for all intents and purposes the IRS allows me a break in some of those costs/expenses.

I charge my families for days I am not open for business. It's not always about that particular day and who it is or isn't fair to. It's about the bigger picture.

I work MUCH longer days/weeks than my clients and when it's all said and done.... I make a small profit.

Not a ton, and certainly not the kind of money people who work in other fields that require the same training, degree, and/or knowledge.

I don't bring home the big bucks...I don't own a home on some tropical island where the sun shines all the time. I don't drive a giant SUV that has a gas tank bigger than my kitchen. I don't wear designer clothing and my purses do NOT say Coach or Dooney & Burke.

I live pay check to pay check and my only real plans for retirement is death or the lottery...which ever happens first.... Not because I don't want a retirement plan but because I can NOT afford one.

I have too many parents complaining about having to pay a few dollars more when it snows so that they can feel like it is fair to them.

Like I said in my previous post.....I know you want fair. I know you are looking for justification but honestly, it isn't about fair and it isn't about what you or me or anyone else thinks is morally and/or ethically right or wrong.

It's about the big picture. It's about being happy OVERALL with the care you receive....even if that care is temporarily unavailable when it snows....

If you are genuinely happy with the services you receive, let it go. Pay for the few extra days that winter is hard on folks. Pay for the snow days and let it roll off your back because technically there are worse things going on in the world of early childhood and child care that ARE worthy of this kind of attention and discussion.

Be happy that you have a place you can trust 100% with the care of your child. If paying for a snow day here and there helps your provider stay in business and continue running in the black....great!

If collecting fees for snow days is a big money maker then your daycare has stumbled upon a gold mine and more power to them because we all know (atleast those of us on the providing end) this profession is NOT a gold mine....

Most of the providers I know here and in real life would qualify for government assistance.

So all in all, thank you for the parent perspective. Thank you for the good debate (I too love a good one ) but I am signing off this thread by offering you this.

Life is a give and take. Sometimes we have to be the givers. If it paints a better, prettier picture in the grand scheme of it all, it's all good.

Even if it isn't fair at the moment.

[Cat Herder]

Tbh, you are absolutely not going to be convinced and your opinion is clearly not likely to change about the issue.

Many, many posters have suggested you either find a daycare with policies you agree with 100% or **** it up, buttercup.

It is widely known that the Vanity Centers charge more. That is part of the appeal for some clients. Just like in the fashion industry. Same product, different market. ::::

I've never understood it, just know it is.

I love the debates, though. lovethis This has been a fun thread.

[Annalee]

Now that we've moved on to paid training days/in-service days....I'd like to add that in order for me to do my job and continue caring for your (general you) child I must attend xx amount of training hours per year.

I have to pay for these trainings out of pocket. Travel, meals and whatever else it entails. I also pay for these trainings with loss of personal time with MY family...so that I can continue to offer quality and legal care to client families.

I work 50-55 hours per week ON SITE and another 10 or so after hours and on weekends. Running errands, cleaning and keeping my environment up to code.

I can deduct some of those expenses and claim a little bit of my time (although, how do you place a price tag on loss of time with your own DH or child) but for all intents and purposes the IRS allows me a break in some of those costs/expenses.

I charge my families for days I am not open for business. It's not always about that particular day and who it is or isn't fair to. It's about the bigger picture.

I work MUCH longer days/weeks than my clients and when it's all said and done.... I make a small profit.

Not a ton, and certainly not the kind of money people who work in other fields that require the same training, degree, and/or knowledge.

I don't bring home the big bucks...I don't own a home on some tropical island where the sun shines all the time. I don't drive a giant SUV that has a gas tank bigger than my kitchen. I don't wear designer clothing and my purses do NOT say Coach or Dooney & Burke.

I live pay check to pay check and my only real plans for retirement is death or the lottery...which ever happens first.... Not because I don't want a retirement plan but because I can NOT afford one.

I have too many parents complaining about having to pay a few dollars more when it snows so that they can feel like it is fair to them.

Like I said in my previous post.....I know you want fair. I know you are looking for justification but honestly, it isn't about fair and it isn't about what you or me or anyone else thinks is morally and/or ethically right or wrong.

It's about the big picture. It's about being happy OVERALL with the care you receive....even if that care is temporarily unavailable when it snows....

If you are genuinely happy with the services you receive, let it go. Pay for the few extra days that winter is hard on folks. Pay for the snow days and let it roll off your back because technically there are worse things going on in the world of early childhood and child care that ARE worthy of this kind of attention and discussion.

Be happy that you have a place you can trust 100% with the care of your child. If paying for a snow day here and there helps your provider stay in business and continue running in the black....great!

If collecting fees for snow days is a big money maker then your daycare has stumbled upon a gold mine and more power to them because we all know (atleast those of us on the providing end) this profession is NOT a gold mine....

Most of the providers I know here and in real life would qualify for government assistance.

So all in all, thank you for the parent perspective. Thank you for the good debate (I too love a good one ) but I am signing off this thread by offering you this.

Life is a give and take. Sometimes we have to be the givers. If it paints a better, prettier picture in the grand scheme of it all, it's all good.

Even if it isn't fair at the moment.

AMEN and AMEN!!!!!!!

[MarinaVanessa]

This is totally different. Let's look at MV's scenario: MV paid for a gym membership and was DENIED use of the gym for two days, but was charged for it anyway. Know what I'd be doing? (I know you know...) I'D BE COMPLAINING. It's not fair.

Maybe MV's contract is clear that if the roof falls in she still has to pay for the gym membership--I don't know. But that doesn't make it fair and it would probably cause her to look for another gym.

SilverSabre, you're likening it to a "spot held"...as in, almost like a club membership, but it's not the same thing.

I didn't complain about my gym closing, but that's just me. I understand that some things are out of their control and things happen. They didn't plan on their pipe bursting. It didn't really bother me that much.

I know that you would have complained ... even before you said you would. I've worked in the restaurant business and in retail in my younger years and you are most likely (all assumptions here, and yes I know about assumptions) what people in the customer service field call "one of those customers".

And really we can all keep going in circles here over and over but it doesn't really matter because it really is all about the contract. If you don't think it's fair find a daycare that is "fair". I don't charge for days that I have to close my daycare because I'm sick, I go on vacation, or I take a personal day. But my clients pay for their spot even if they come or not so if they go on vacation, if they get sick ... they pay. It's in my contract. They are paying the same flat weekly rate regardless of whether they are using it or not.

"b. Fees are charged for the week and are based solely on enrollment, not on attendance. There are no deductions in fees regardless of whether a child is present or not. " This is what we in our business call "paying for the slot/spot"

[Dsquared]

It really surprises how much parents complain on having to pay their provider for the few days they get to close because of weather or being sick. I mean we take care of your kids from morning until evening, we are basically raising your child and loving them as if they were are own. I payed a ton of money to my daughters preschool for 2 days a week, for a teacher to take care of her 2 hours a day. My daughter missed a ton of days one year! Basically missed half the year, but I still payed on time, and did not ask for a break in tuition. On top of that I did everything to please the teacher, brought in supplies for the class whenever she needed them just because they and my daughter for 2 hours a day. I will treat anybody who takes care of my child like a king or queen. I pay a tutor to tutor my oldest $50 an hour and we pay whether we show up or not. If you love your child and respect the provider you would pay your provider without any complaints. For the most part I have parents who pay me whether their child shows up or not, but they are reasonable parents who love their children and respect me. I have one parent who is late but I am dealing with the situation. If you don't like it find a place that is willing to pro rate for you. In my area that is very rare.

[saved4always]

I provided child care in my home. My policy was basically, if I chose to close due to illness or whatever, I did not charge for the day. If there was a snow day, I charged for the whole day even if the child did not attend since I was open no matter the weather (since I was in my house). I charged for half the day for children not coming because they were sick...I found it was less likely parents would bring a sick child if the fee was less. I know my rules are very lax compared to other providers though...I only did child care to bring in a little extra money while staying home with my own child. I wasn't trying to run a household on my income so it did not cause me to miss paying bills when I had less income.

I have friends who provide childcare who could never miss payments like that...they would not be able to pay bills or buy groceries. They are struggling with all of these snow days lately. They have parents balking at paying for snow days when they were OPEN (teachers, of course, who did not have to work due to weather and see the opportunity to keep that money they had budgeted for daycare).

[SnowDayMom]

Annalee, I'm assuming you meant that YOUR contracts are non-negotiable, not that ALL contracts are non-negotiable. Because I negotiate contracts for a living--that's what I do as a lawyer--write contracts and negotiate them. God, do I wish contracts were non-negotiable. It would make my life so much easier. But then I'd be out of a job.

Well, it's been fun, ladies! (and guys, if there were any...) I wish you full rosters, lots of easygoing, generous parents, and let's all hope for sunshine and warm temps!

[Unregistered]

So you're saying that people who run daycare facilities are in the slim minority of workers in the U.S.? Every job I have ever had would not have paid me for not showing up to work or simply choosing not to open the shop for the day. You compare paying rent and utilities, but when I can't go to work because the daycare doesn't open, who is going to pay my rent or utilities? Sounds like quite a racket to me. One missed day of work costs me more money than the entire week of tuition.

I got paid from my ins company for time I didn't have to work on the one rare day they closed.

Do they HAVE to pay us if they close? Nope. But they did. And they still were out money because they could not handle their member's requests, yet they paid us willingly because we do a GREAT job and don't complain about everything.

[BabyLuver21]

How about this example?

You enroll in college. You pay your tuition through financial aide. Uh oh, the school closes for inclement weather, and not only that, it's the FIRST WEEK OF CLASS (PANIC NOW!). You didn't get to attend class for that week, and thus missed some assignments. There is NO extension on your assignments, and you don't think you should have to do them, but your teacher says they're still due, so you decide you want to drop the class. BUT, uh oh, you have already been in class for a week now, and NO REFUNDS are given after a certain date (let's pretend it's day 2 of class like at my college). You KNOW you will NOT be completing the class; but you will STILL have to pay the government their loan back! It doesn't matter that you didn't attend the class after 1 week, you're gonna get billed the WHOLE semester. You don't have to like it. It may not even be FAIR, but you signed the document to enroll in classes that you agreed to the terms of your financial aide, and that you agree to pay it back "regardless of whether or not you completed a class, passed the class or didn't pass the class, and whether or not you felt you got a good education. "

The point is, if you want drop-in care, where you ONLY pay for days you use, you need to find drop in care. Keep in mind, sometimes that costs MORE as opposed to a weekly set rate, so thus, by the end of the year? You pay the same or more than you would have been with a set rate.

All kinds of companies, such as Comcast, do things like this too. They offer 360 channels, but you only watch 100 of them. Do you think they refund you for the 260 you don't watch? Nope. It's a package deal. You pay for the whole lot, though you don't use it. They don't care that you don't use it. They just collect their checks, stream in channels, and everyone's on their merry ways.

Your home for rent:
You charge your tenants $1000 per month. Your tenant stays with her boyfriend and doesn't use the premises. You still charge $1000 per month. Is that fair? She's not living there 1/2 the time! Why should she pay?

Perhaps, you had to remodel a bathroom. You still charge your tenant $1000 per month, but she can't use that bathroom and she has the RIGHT to 100% comfortable use of her home. Are you gonna bring down her rent? Nope you are not.

Let's say you want your renter to leave. You don't like her. You tell her, "You have 30 days to get out" On the 16th. Because she was there for 1/2 of month the following month (thru the 15th for example) you still collect the $1000. Should you give her the prorated amount back? Probably, but your contract says that if you have to move to evict, they pay for x amount of rent for that 1/2 month AND as long as it takes you to fill the place up until the end of their lease. Fair? Why should they pay for 2 places???


See, life ain't fair, folks. But it's not fair, because of the people who abuse things.

So Daycare is kinda like the stuff I wrote above. Disagree? Call your phone company RIGHT NOW (while you're in contract) and see if you can get out of your ETF. I dare ya.