Paying Full Tuition When the Daycare Closes for a Snow Day...Is This Fair?

[SnowDayMom]

How about this example?

You enroll in college. You pay your tuition through financial aide. Uh oh, the school closes for inclement weather, and not only that, it's the FIRST WEEK OF CLASS (PANIC NOW!). You didn't get to attend class for that week, and thus missed some assignments. There is NO extension on your assignments, and you don't think you should have to do them, but your teacher says they're still due, so you decide you want to drop the class. BUT, uh oh, you have already been in class for a week now, and NO REFUNDS are given after a certain date (let's pretend it's day 2 of class like at my college). You KNOW you will NOT be completing the class; but you will STILL have to pay the government their loan back! It doesn't matter that you didn't attend the class after 1 week, you're gonna get billed the WHOLE semester. You don't have to like it. It may not even be FAIR, but you signed the document to enroll in classes that you agreed to the terms of your financial aide, and that you agree to pay it back "regardless of whether or not you completed a class, passed the class or didn't pass the class, and whether or not you felt you got a good education. "

The point is, if you want drop-in care, where you ONLY pay for days you use, you need to find drop in care. Keep in mind, sometimes that costs MORE as opposed to a weekly set rate, so thus, by the end of the year? You pay the same or more than you would have been with a set rate.

All kinds of companies, such as Comcast, do things like this too. They offer 360 channels, but you only watch 100 of them. Do you think they refund you for the 260 you don't watch? Nope. It's a package deal. You pay for the whole lot, though you don't use it. They don't care that you don't use it. They just collect their checks, stream in channels, and everyone's on their merry ways.

Your home for rent:
You charge your tenants $1000 per month. Your tenant stays with her boyfriend and doesn't use the premises. You still charge $1000 per month. Is that fair? She's not living there 1/2 the time! Why should she pay?

Perhaps, you had to remodel a bathroom. You still charge your tenant $1000 per month, but she can't use that bathroom and she has the RIGHT to 100% comfortable use of her home. Are you gonna bring down her rent? Nope you are not.

Let's say you want your renter to leave. You don't like her. You tell her, "You have 30 days to get out" On the 16th. Because she was there for 1/2 of month the following month (thru the 15th for example) you still collect the $1000. Should you give her the prorated amount back? Probably, but your contract says that if you have to move to evict, they pay for x amount of rent for that 1/2 month AND as long as it takes you to fill the place up until the end of their lease. Fair? Why should they pay for 2 places???


See, life ain't fair, folks. But it's not fair, because of the people who abuse things.

So Daycare is kinda like the stuff I wrote above. Disagree? Call your phone company RIGHT NOW (while you're in contract) and see if you can get out of your ETF. I dare ya.

I appreciate the effort...but:

COLLEGE CLASS: The only way this comparison possibly is analogous to the daycare-closing-for-snow situation is if they close school SO MUCH that you're able to make the argument that you aren't getting what you paid for. Know what you're paying for? An education (or the specific education of that class, if you're buying by the class). That would have to be a LOT of closing and would be VERY hard to prove that you didn't get the education you paid for. In my opinion, it's a HUGE stretch to say this is a good comparison. And on top of it, here's another reason it doesn't compare: You have an unrelated third party involved--the government. I'm quite sure the government doesn't give a hoot about the quality (or lack of) your education, but they are sure gonna want their money back.

COMCAST: Not a good comparison at all. In that example they have at all times provided what you paid for--whether you use it or not is irrelevant. In the snow day example the daycare WILL NOT provide the service you paid for, even though you as a parent may actually want to use it.

I "rented" a movie from Direct TV, the movie got all screwed up halfway through and I wasn't actually able to watch it (thus I didn't get what I paid for). I called DTV and guess what? They refunded me the money for the movie. Know why? Because I paid for something they DID NOT PROVIDE ME, just like when the daycares close for snow and thus DO NOT PROVIDE me with the childcare for which I paid them.

HOME FOR RENT: Is the same example. They paid and you are AT ALL TIMES willing to let them live there, but they CHOSE not to. COMPLETELY a different example and not applicable here. An example that WOULD be analogous is they pay you the $1000 rent for the whole month and you refuse to let them live there for one of the weeks of the month. Fair now????

BATHROOM REMODEL: Perhaps you're getting close to a good analogy there, because I'm assuming the $1000 covers the rent of the whole house, and you're depriving them of some of the house. I'm sure there's case-law out there of renters who've sued over stuff like this and I honestly don't know how courts look at this, but lets look at it as lay-people. It's a close analogy but not the same because the landlord is improving your house by "closing" the bathroom, so when he's done, you'll be getting a better house for the same money. This is actually a closer analogy to my daycare closing for teacher in-service days, because an argument can be made that I'm getting better teachers/school afterward. But frankly, I'm guessing a tenant could refuse the remodel during the term of their contract, unless it was required due to a leak or something. And that's probably a whole other discussion (if the remodel was required for safety--that's getting a little closer, but it still is only analogous if the school HAS TO close for snow rather than choosing to close. I'm not sure in what situations, other than a snow emergency, that the daycare HAS to close. I'm sure there are some--I just don't know them).

EVICTION: I can't imagine you can evict just for not liking someone, and if you can, then making them pay until you find another renter is outrageously wrong. I'm guessing whatever rule you're talking about that might exist for eviction (if it's in landlord/tenant law and not just in your contract) exists only because you are allowed to evict in situation where the tenant is a WRONG-DOER. They have trashed the place, flooded it, destroyed your investment, etc. So yes, in that case, kick them out and charge them until you find another tenant (if you're allowed to) because THEY HAVE CAUSED the situation and are being bad people and have DAMAGED you financially......but again, totally not the same thing as a snow day.

Ughhh, and the cell example is the same as the college and Comcase example. Not a good argument--not the same thing.

[Babyluver21]

Well if you want an EXACT replica of daycare, you won't get it.

Because there isn't anything "EXACTLY" the same.

However, if you pay $100 per week to your provider, and she closes on a snow day and it's in your contract that "childcare is based on enrollment, not attendance", you don't have a leg to stand on.

Much like your employer pays you sick time and even if they close, you use your sick time (that DCP's are not priviledged to), but you still got paid for not being there.

You expect to be paid for your paid time off (pay for not working), but you don't wish to afford the same courtesy on a questionable day or for illness? That is VERY hypocritical.

[SnowDayMom]

Well if you want an EXACT replica of daycare, you won't get it.

Because there isn't anything "EXACTLY" the same.

However, if you pay $100 per week to your provider, and she closes on a snow day and it's in your contract that "childcare is based on enrollment, not attendance", you don't have a leg to stand on.

Much like your employer pays you sick time and even if they close, you use your sick time (that DCP's are not priviledged to), but you still got paid for not being there.

You expect to be paid for your paid time off (pay for not working), but you don't wish to afford the same courtesy on a questionable day or for illness? That is VERY hypocritical.

Show me the employer who would 1) offer the employees unlimited paid sick days, and 2) agree with you that such an arrangement would be totally fair (he'll just pay you AND a temp to get the work done!). You show me that, and then you can call me hypocritical.

And I employ a daycare CENTER because I have no intention of having a care provider who can't watch my child due to illness, let alone ask me to pay.

[Unregistered]

I empathize- I'm a parent living in Philadelphia and my daycare has closed a ton this season, while I still have to work (I'm in a field that cannot close for any reason- I supervise "essential personnel"). I get that I'm paying for a spot- not that I'm thrilled about it.

The only time I was really annoyed and felt that I deserved some sort of refund was when Sandy hit and the daycare was closed for a week and a half for power outages. That's a long time to be closed and we were struggling to find care, and I was even more annoyed when I found out the teachers didn't get paid for that time.

[craftymissbeth]

I empathize- I'm a parent living in Philadelphia and my daycare has closed a ton this season, while I still have to work (I'm in a field that cannot close for any reason- I supervise "essential personnel"). I get that I'm paying for a spot- not that I'm thrilled about it.

The only time I was really annoyed and felt that I deserved some sort of refund was when Sandy hit and the daycare was closed for a week and a half for power outages. That's a long time to be closed and we were struggling to find care, and I was even more annoyed when I found out the teachers didn't get paid for that time.

In your situation I think it would be beneficial for you to find a center that is open 52 weeks a year and does not close unexpectedly for any reason. Even if your current daycare doesn't charge it doesn't sound like you don't have a significant other, family, friends, or any type of back-up care whatsoever. In my area, all of the centers close for snow days, but maybe you would be able to find one.

As far as the Sandy situation goes... that is beyond ridiculous! If your daycare was going to charge you for all of that time (IMO they should not have) then the staff should have at least been paid! Sorry you had to deal with not only Sandy, but that daycare also.

[Play Care]

Alright, I'm losing steam on this (finally), but I think I can find a *lil* bit more for one point.

Blandino, I get what you're saying, but I think it's a bad analogy. You're describing an employee on SALARY. My daycare is not on "salary" from me... What if you work at Macy's and you're not on salary, and you show up one day and Macy's is closed due to a power outage, I'm pretty certain Macy's would NOT pay you that day.

On the other hand, I DO pay by the week. It's not salary, but then it's actually not hourly either...so maybe this is some hybrid situation where there is a point in there somewhere... I'm not sure I have the energy left to ponder deeply (the only kinda pondering I know how to do) on this twist, but at least I can see from your post that it's not just black and white.

Blandino, though, you brought up a REALLY interesting point about bad weather. Part of what irks me is that the daycare center is closed when other businesses are open. That drives me crazy. My thinking was, "they don't have to bus the kids anywhere, so how do they justify closing?" But, I hadn't considered that you are RESPONSIBLE for getting the child help in an emergency situation, and so maybe that's a justification for closing when so many other establishments are open.

Now frankly, I'm not 100% sure it's a great argument, because maybe all you're legally responsible to do is call the police/firemen/ambulance and if they can't get to you, it's not your fault. (sorry, I'm thinking strictly about your liability, not whether or not that's a good idea or a "nice" way of thinking!! That's what we lawyers do...think about liability.) But, Blandino, it's a really good point worthy of further pondering...



There are some really great thinkers on here! (and clearly a lot of savvy business owners) So while I have your attention, I'm curious about your thoughts on another situation at my daycare:

This particular center has at least two "Teacher In-service Days" per school year. These are days when they are "closed" (but of course I have to pay) so that their teachers can train, clean, organize, decorate classrooms, etc. As you can imagine, I find this outrageous. I know, I know...you're surprised about that.

*If* they were a private school, I could see this happening. *If* I was paying them for their private kindergarten I can see ****ing it up. Fine. But when my child is an infant, or a preschooler, or whatever, I can't see the justification around having a Teacher In-Service Day. My husband owns his own business--he doesn't "charge" his customers for training his staff, or for a special day of keeping up his offices and warehouses. Sure it's built-in to what he charges, as it should be, but there's not a special day when his customers all have to pony up $50 and don't get service in return because he's training his staff.

I'm starting to recognize why Primrose calls themselves Primrose SCHOOL. Because then they can say, "YOU, SnowDayMom, might see us as a daycare, but you're actually paying for private school for your infant (har har), so that's why we need a teacher in-service day, just like any other SCHOOL."

Also, you can probably see from this that the snow days are not the ONLY area I'm feeling a little taken advantage of here, when I'm already paying for an expensive place as it is (i.e. don't slip extra costs in too, please!). There's also a $50-75 "supply fee" I have to pay at the beginning of every school year. Grrrr.

I know I could change schools, but my hubby thinks it would be too disruptive for my lil girl, and he doesn't have the same sense of personal outrage around perceived "unfairness" as I do.

But within the next year I may "retire" from what I'm doing, and then I'll pull her out and watch her myself. Money will be tight, but then I'll have more free time to spend with my kids, and maybe put some of my energy toward helping others! (as one of your respondents suggested)

I also close for snow days but only when a SOE is declared. Years ago I was always open because, being an in-home, I didn't need to travel. Then during one particularly bad storm, one of my dck's became violently ill. Fever of 102, projectile vomiting, etc. the roads were so bad that no one could come get her for over FIVE hours. If the situation had worsened, I could not have gotten her out. Certainly no emergency vehicles could have gotten in. Now you say, perhaps your liability would be covered by simply making the 911 call. Great and all, but honestly, that would be cold comfort if the worst happened. Further my state licensor told me at the time that had emergency vehicles not been able get to my home because my drive/ exits were not clear (and during major storms they are not, immediately anyway ) I would get cited, perhaps lose my license and face criminal charges (the latter I gather would be if a child was seriously injured/killed) Now, nine times out of ten I'm open and everything is fine, but that one time something happens...

But to answer the original post about fairness - here is the kicker - a few years ago I put it to my dcp's - I asked if they would rather me NOT charge for the snow days we *may* have each year (in reality it's about one or two days) but take away the week of vacation to off set that (at the time none of them were using the vacation) Every single one of my dcp's chose to keep things as is. I think that is the issue with the concept of "fairness" what you (general you) may think is fair, others may not. Then what?

I am not familiar with Primrose but know of other centers like it. A good friend of mine and her hubby are both doctors. When they toured centers, she told me she refused to consider any place that called itself a "school" because in her experience they took the school calendar schedule thing too far. she's in the ER, and he's in a private practice, both far from family they just don't have the luxury of snow days. They wound up getting a nanny from a foreign country (through a service) - very expensive but worth it for them.

[Unreg]

Show me the employer who would 1) offer the employees unlimited paid sick days, and 2) agree with you that such an arrangement would be totally fair (he'll justify pay you AND a temp to get the work done!). You show me that, and then you can call me hypocritical.

And I employ a daycare CENTER because I have no intention of having a care provider who can't watch my child due to illness, let alone ask me to pay.

How about this....you pay your insurance company for "maybes" like: what if my house burns down if I get into an accident ,what if someone steals my wedding ring ,what if I get sick? now let us say that you have never ever ever had to use it or your deductible was going to not make it worth filing, or your claim was denied ? do you honestly think that you would get your money back for all the premiums you paid for the years? the answer will always be no.some people think that paying insurance company is paying for absolutely nothing because it's based on what if only? it's not really a service its not even a guarantee if you have a loss that you will have coverage.I think that's pretty darn comparable.many will argue that paying for insurance you do not get what you pay for those people are usually people whose claims were denied. Even whe sometimes it.seems that it shoud have been paid. Also I.saw nothing where a provider suggested they get unlimited amounts of.time off. To suggest that is off base and ridiculous and does make u sound ridiculously unrealistic. Sorry but save the drama for.ur mama. Don't like.the.like a policy? Find somewhere else.for.ur kids. Otherwise **** it.up and b grateful u have a provider who cares enough for the safety of all her kids more than u do for.ur own. Man, parents would.risk their and their.kids lives to be on the road.in precarious situations simply to make sure they "get what they paid for". Never mind the fact she takes excellent care of the kids all other.times. my goodness!!!!!

[Unregistered]

I empathize- I'm a parent living in Philadelphia and my daycare has closed a ton this season, while I still have to work (I'm in a field that cannot close for any reason- I supervise "essential personnel"). I get that I'm paying for a spot- not that I'm thrilled about it.

The only time I was really annoyed and felt that I deserved some sort of refund was when Sandy hit and the daycare was closed for a week and a half for power outages. That's a long time to be closed and we were struggling to find care, and I was even more annoyed when I found out the teachers didn't get paid for that time.

What do you propose the DCP should have done, take your children during power outages? She is not allowed. Sandy is an act of God, and no one's fault. Sometimes, the act of irritation shows ungratefulness. Perhaps, the act of God and the lack of power and heat affected more than just your family. For example: The food she bought FOR YOUR (and other's) child(ren) probably went bad and she'd have to rebuy it. Perhaps there was damage to the center where YOUR child goes, and so they had to pay for THAT instead of the teachers. People only look at what affects them, and not the bigger picture that maybe you didn't see, that affects EVERYONE. Consider your weekly fee a donation that made sure she could open after that week and a half by being able to go back to the store and replace all the food, to make sure that the power could come back on, to fix any damage that the storm caused and be grateful you weren't one who lost their home and have to rebuild---and didn't have flood insurance, or didn't have enough money for their deductible...you are not the only one a devastation like Sandy or Katrina affected, so stop acting like it was all about you. YOU were struggling to find care. Well, everyone else was struggling TOO.

[Unregistered]

Primrose

I have a close friend who works for Primrose. She has informed me that full time workers get paid snow days, holidays and sick days. 80 per cent of her co workers are full time employees . She is happy for the most part working there and she says if she had a child she would send them. There are 2 teachers in the class and the children are always eating. She said it is high end but they are super picky about who works there. That is what you are getting for $ 50 a day, according to her.

[Daycaregranny]

This thread was a great read. I guess what I don't understand is how an obviously educated parent reads a contract, agrees to what's in the contract and then after the fact complains it's not fair? What's not fair? They stated this is how we do things and you agree by signing the contract. The end. If after reading the contract you felt their policies were not "fair" than that was the time to try to argue for some sort of policy change or to not agree and bring your child somewhere else. I guess the only part I find that is unfair is someone who agrees to my policies (by signing on the dotted line) then cries about what they have agreed to. There is a difference between what you don't like and what's fair. When I wake up at the crack of dawn and no one shows up till an hour and a half later, do I like it? NO. Is it fair? Yes. I agreed to be here. I guess the bottom line is if you knew going in that this was their policy then yes, it's fair. You might not like it, but it's fair. If they hid this from you and you never agreed to this than it's not fair.

[Unregistered]

What do you propose the DCP should have done, take your children during power outages? She is not allowed. Sandy is an act of God, and no one's fault. Sometimes, the act of irritation shows ungratefulness. Perhaps, the act of God and the lack of power and heat affected more than just your family. For example: The food she bought FOR YOUR (and other's) child(ren) probably went bad and she'd have to rebuy it. Perhaps there was damage to the center where YOUR child goes, and so they had to pay for THAT instead of the teachers. People only look at what affects them, and not the bigger picture that maybe you didn't see, that affects EVERYONE. Consider your weekly fee a donation that made sure she could open after that week and a half by being able to go back to the store and replace all the food, to make sure that the power could come back on, to fix any damage that the storm caused and be grateful you weren't one who lost their home and have to rebuild---and didn't have flood insurance, or didn't have enough money for their deductible...you are not the only one a devastation like Sandy or Katrina affected, so stop acting like it was all about you. YOU were struggling to find care. Well, everyone else was struggling TOO.

calm down- I said I was annoyed, but I paid the fee because I signed the contract. That's the main point of this thread. I didn't think it was fair that in a center with probably about 70 children all paying their fee with all the staff that cover their ratios plus subs (not doing the math to figure out how many staff that is) that didn't get paid that week that were all dealing with their own issue from the storm and whatnot just didn't seem cool. Add to that the fact that I had to call the corporate head of my center because I couldn't get ahold of my director or owner to let me know what was going on, but of course, that's a topic for another thread and it was a few years ago now.

TL/DR- calm down, pay your daycare, sorry to have offended

[Heidi]

calm down- I said I was annoyed, but I paid the fee because I signed the contract. That's the main point of this thread. I didn't think it was fair that in a center with probably about 70 children all paying their fee with all the staff that cover their ratios plus subs (not doing the math to figure out how many staff that is) that didn't get paid that week that were all dealing with their own issue from the storm and whatnot just didn't seem cool. Add to that the fact that I had to call the corporate head of my center because I couldn't get ahold of my director or owner to let me know what was going on, but of course, that's a topic for another thread and it was a few years ago now.

TL/DR- calm down, pay your daycare, sorry to have offended

Honestly, I think that if they charged parents full tuition during that time, they should have paid their employees their wages as well. In fact, I would say that under any circumstances, if one is charging their customers, they should be paying their employees.

[Play Care]

Honestly, I think that if they charged parents full tuition during that time, they should have paid their employees their wages as well. In fact, I would say that under any circumstances, if one is charging their customers, they should be paying their employees.

I agree.

[Sugar Magnolia]

This thread was a great read. I guess what I don't understand is how an obviously educated parent reads a contract, agrees to what's in the contract and then after the fact complains it's not fair? What's not fair? They stated this is how we do things and you agree by signing the contract. The end. If after reading the contract you felt their policies were not "fair" than that was the time to try to argue for some sort of policy change or to not agree and bring your child somewhere else. I guess the only part I find that is unfair is someone who agrees to my policies (by signing on the dotted line) then cries about what they have agreed to. There is a difference between what you don't like and what's fair. When I wake up at the crack of dawn and no one shows up till an hour and a half later, do I like it? NO. Is it fair? Yes. I agreed to be here. I guess the bottom line is if you knew going in that this was their policy then yes, it's fair. You might not like it, but it's fair. If they hid this from you and you never agreed to this than it's not.

Most people understand "no",.especially lawyers, but some just don't like being told "no". And if they can't get that "no" turned into a yes, they complain loudly and I'll bet that complaint contains the phrase "I'm a lawyer".

[Babyluver21]

Most people understand "no",.especially lawyers, but some just don't like being told "no". And if they can't get that "no" turned into a yes, they complain loudly and I'll bet that complaint contains the phrase "I'm a lawyer".

LOL So true!

Bottom line: If it's in the contract and and the parent signs their child on agreeing to the terms of the contract, it's completely fair because you were told and agreed to the terms. It's not like it was sprung on you after-the-fact or you "didn't know". My biggest pet peeve was when parents complained and then played dumb!