Okay-Here's A Good One! So Mad!

[ChaserT27]

I too have a "damage clause" in my handbook. Has never happened (yet) and I feel so bad for you..but I would be adding this clause to yours LOL

I know you agree supervision..but I also agree that the children NEED to be taught what is acceptable bathroom behavior. I have twin girls who just entered K and while one does play with anything and everything she shouldn't...she has never pushed it THAT far. When she was your DCB's age..she used to put toothpaste in the toilet paper and Q tips in the tooth paste, squirt soap every where..etc etc. I knew every time she went int here I was in for it..but I waited and would punish. On occasion I would intervene..but I wanted her to LEARN. She now only occasionally does things. Usually it is water in the soap bottle but I thinks he does it when it is near empty. I assume she has seen someone do this as I never do it.

SO I am with you on the parents stepping up and helping you teach the child, if they are unwilling to help assist you in teaching the children basic values and instead opts to reward them by taking them out to dinner..my thought is termination honestly. This was a HUGE issue and the parents should of (right in front of you) spoken to the child to let him know..they are on the same page as you!

[MarinaVanessa]

I have a clause in my contract that specifically states that any damages caused by daycare children will be charged at a rate determined by me.

YES YES YES!! If anyone out there in daycare home land does not already have this in their contract and/or handbook PLEASE put it in now! This would deffinetely count as intentional damage to me especially since there have been many, MANY discussions with the parents about bathroom behavior.

$3,500+?! Are you kidding me?! That's like 6-16 months worth of childcare for me for 1 child. I have a policy for intentional damages and if this happened to me I would have asked for at least half of the damages or see you in court buster (half if one of my children was involved) AND I'd say "see ya later" and cut my losses right then and there. Who knows what's going to happen next time.

Then again that means that they were spending too much time unsupervised up there. I'd stand at the top of the stairs with the door open while he did his business from now on.

[nannyde]

Nanny, I do agree with you in that I will need to directly supervise. However, this child is old enough to follow the basics of going to the bathroom. He will be starting kindergarten in less than 4 months, and I'm sure that if this were to happen there, responsibility would be placed on the child. By almost 5 years old, I do not feel it is an unreasonable expectation to use the bathroom, wipe (with help if requested-which this child sometimes does), and flush. They then wash hands in my direct supervision. I am present for at least 50% of the time, however, they should be able to do this unassisted. I discussed this with my licensor to make sure I am running a safe operation with the equipment here, and she agrees with me that this child is intentionally trying to cause damage. I feel this is the problem that needs to be addressed. I do not expect his family to pay for damages (as I posted) but I do expect the family to help me teach this child the basic rules of self-independence (toileting), the importance of following directions, the fact that not following directions causes problems/consequences, and the fact that we must respect property (ok, he's 4, maybe just the beginnings of this one). Isn't that what I'm supposed to "teach" at this age? To me, it is equally important, if not more, to teach these basic life skills as it is to teach numbers and letters at this age. I am sending him to kindergarten without these skills, obviously, and you don't think it's important for his family to help me teach them? This is where we must disagree, because I thought these were the important skills you thought kids should know and parents should teach before kindergarten.

As far as the expensive mistake, I have taken the blame and have learned my lesson.

When he's in school there is no expectation or pay given for direct supervision. It's not a reasonable comparison.

Of course you should tell the parents but the issues is at your house not theirs. It's your job to know what you can and can't allow. This child gave you plenty of forewarning that your words and your consequences would not deter him from bad behavior. When they tell you who they are believe it.

I'm not here to hammer you. You can displace this responsibility to what you are comfortable with. Your licensor can agree or disagree but in the end it's your home and your money that will tell you the truth of this.

[MyAngels]

I feel badly for you that this happened but hopefully it can be a great lesson to all providers who read this post.

You can't allow small children unsupervised accesss to any standing or running water.

I don't allow kids in the bathroom without direct visual supervision and I don't allow them to flush. I flush the toilet so I can see what's going in it and down it.

For the amount of money this cost you you could have a staff assistant for MANY hours a week. It will cost more than you make on the four year old.

They gave you many TELLS that they were escalating their behavior while unsupervised. The FIRST instance of misbehavior (toilet paper all over the bathroom) was a shout out to you that they need direct visual supervision. This kind of behavior has to stop at the root or you will end up with damage or worst yet.. injury.

Lesson learned. I wouldn't mention it to the Dad at all. They weren't responsible for supervising the child during this time. I don't think they should really even be involved in disciplining him for it. A kid doesn't know the difference between one dollar of damage or ten thousand dollars of damage. All they know if they are in trouble right at that moment and then they start over again and be not in trouble.

You know now that this child needs an adult with eyes on him all the time. Maybe invest in some portable video cams to cover your supervision when you have to go from room to room or have him shadow you every day all day.

One thing is for sure... you won't do that again. That's the beauty of our big mistakes. Live and learn.

I didn't read all of the other answers, but this would be my opinion, too. I'm just too lazy to write it all out .

Oh, and if your insurance company gives you any guff about this being intentional - I don't see how it could be. The child did not stuff a roll of paper into the toilet with the knowledge that it would cause thousands of dollars worth of damage, not at 4 years old. If it comes to it, fight them on it.

[daycare]

Nan-
so how do you supervise all of your children when using the bathroom?
At my house I teach a learning program and I allow for the kids to be excused independently during class time to use the restroom, if i feel that they are in there for longer than necessary, I do walk in to see what is going on.

I also have set bathroom breaks, but you know kids....when nature calls they are going to go. If I had to stop and take a kid to the bathroom, this means all of my kids would have to get up and go as well. This means 100% supervision and we all know that this is impossible to achieve in group care with one set of eyes... What do you do when YOU yourself use the toilet? You cant take them with you, so the kids go unsupervised.

Now, i know that this child was having issues and the provider went thorugh measures to try to fix it. However, she gave in too fast and trusted that both her and the parents have taken the correct steps to resolve the matters.

i agree with the provider that a 4year old knows better than to behave the way he did. I still feel that both the parents and the provider failed in this siutation and therefore both should be held responsible for the damages done.......

[mac60]

So so sorry you are dealing with this. I have a 1 person in the bathroom rule, and leave the door open/partially open, for those under 5. I would terminate them no matter how destitute I was for the money. As poor as I am right now....they would be gone. I would no longer want to be responsible for a hellion like that.

As far as insurance, I had a situation once, on a very much smaller scale. A mom sent a sippy of red gatorade in with their 3 yr old and it had medicine in it because the girl didn't feel good. Mom asked me to let her drink it. I laid her down on the floor, on top of a blanket, then her mat, and she basically laid there all day. When I took up the blankets at the end of the day, I had a huge red gatorade stain on my gray carpet. I couldn't get it out. I contacted insurance, and thinking it would be covered because I #1 have daycare coverage and #2 it was a daycare kid who did it, boy was I fooled. Insurance told me I had to pay to have the carpet professionally cleaned, which I did $100+, it still didn't all come out. Then, they told me if I was to get different carpet I would have to pay the deductible and it would be covered under my homeowners insurance and not the "daycare" part of it. I will never figure that out.

[AfterSchoolMom]

Haven't we had some discussion here about older 4's and privacy in the bathroom? Didn't some of you say that you weren't allowed (per licensing) to watch a child in the bathroom or help wipe at that age? Just curious.

[daycare]

in CA there is no such law...but I do know that some centers have a rule that they cannot assit children in the bathroom after a certain age.

I feel uncomfortable in the bathroom with a child of that age. I think they need to learn that No person should be touching them down their once they are self sufficient in the bathroom... However, I know that some kids at the age of 4 still need assistance....

[nannyde]

Nan-
so how do you supervise all of your children when using the bathroom?
At my house I teach a learning program and I allow for the kids to be excused independently during class time to use the restroom, if i feel that they are in there for longer than necessary, I do walk in to see what is going on.

I also have set bathroom breaks, but you know kids....when nature calls they are going to go. If I had to stop and take a kid to the bathroom, this means all of my kids would have to get up and go as well. This means 100% supervision and we all know that this is impossible to achieve in group care with one set of eyes... What do you do when YOU yourself use the toilet? You cant take them with you, so the kids go unsupervised.

Now, i know that this child was having issues and the provider went thorugh measures to try to fix it. However, she gave in too fast and trusted that both her and the parents have taken the correct steps to resolve the matters.

i agree with the provider that a 4year old knows better than to behave the way he did. I still feel that both the parents and the provider failed in this siutation and therefore both should be held responsible for the damages done.......

I have a staff assistant.

My upstairs playroom is right next to the potty so I would position myself between the entry to both rooms to supervise both.

My downstairs is equipped with JMason playpens and play yards. I have a kiddy potty down there. If I were by myself I would confine all the kids and then come up to go potty and bring the kids who need to go with me.

I've been by myself here and I always confine or take them with me.

I NEVER allow kids in the bathroom without supervision. I've never had anything thrown down the toilet by the kids. My former staff assistant dumped a bucket of dirty water down one of my toilets after she had cleaned toys. The lid of one of my teapots plugged up the toilet. That was 95 dollars for a plumber. I can't imagine 10K. (We now have a rule that no bucket water is put down the toilet.

[Country Kids]

Haven't we had some discussion here about older 4's and privacy in the bathroom? Didn't some of you say that you weren't allowed (per licensing) to watch a child in the bathroom or help wipe at that age? Just curious.

I was thinking the exact same thing! Also, I believe alot of providers said very recently that if a child couldn't-tell them and go on their own, wipe, flush, wash hands, etc. that they weren't considered potty trained. So would this child not be considered potty trained? In fact if I remember correctly Nannyde you were one of them that said that! What would happen if this happened in a center? I don't think children are not supervised one on one at centers at this age.

[Crystal]

As much as it sux for you, I completely agree with Nannyde on this one.
4 year olds are NOT savvy to the damage that flushing stuff down the toilet can cause. They should NEVER be left unsupervised in the restroom. Even though it can be difficult, especially if there is only one caregiver, you have to fnd a way to manage it. NOt only can damage occur to personal property, but the children COULD get hurt. From your OP, it sounds like they have had quite a bit of time unsupervised at one time, or he wouldn't have had time for the toilet paper to the cieling and the broken hook on the wall. I think sometimes time passes and we ourselves don't realize how long it has REALLY been.

IF you MUST leave him in the restroom unsupervised, remove the toilet paper from the room. Boys only need it for #2, in which case they should be calling you for help anyway

[daycare]

I have a staff assistant.

My upstairs playroom is right next to the potty so I would position myself between the entry to both rooms to supervise both.

My downstairs is equipped with JMason playpens and play yards. I have a kiddy potty down there. If I were by myself I would confine all the kids and then come up to go potty and bring the kids who need to go with me.

I've been by myself here and I always confine or take them with me.

I NEVER allow kids in the bathroom without supervision. I've never had anything thrown down the toilet by the kids. My former staff assistant dumped a bucket of dirty water down one of my toilets after she had cleaned toys. The lid of one of my teapots plugged up the toilet. That was 95 dollars for a plumber. I can't imagine 10K. (We now have a rule that no bucket water is put down the toilet.

I guess for your age group that works, however, I would never be able to teach if I had to stop everytime a kid needed to go to the bathroom. I do have the rule of one person at a time and the door is always kept ajar. I have never had issues with any of the kids putting things in the toilet, but I think this is because I have potty trained every child that is here and they know the rules from way back in the day.

I don't have an assistant, its just little ol me. So I have no choice but to let them use the toilet on thier own. Plus I think that age the age of 4 they should be able to do so without constant supervision and direction from an adult... You have to cut the ties at some point and trust that they can do it on their own...IMO.....

[Crystal]

I was thinking the exact same thing! Also, I believe alot of providers said very recently that if a child couldn't-tell them and go on their own, wipe, flush, wash hands, etc. that they weren't considered potty trained. So would this child not be considered potty trained? In fact if I remember correctly Nannyde you were one of them that said that! What would happen if this happened in a center? I don't think children are not supervised one on one at centers at this age.

I've never heard of a "law" that states that, but there are some silly regs out there, so I wouldn't be surprised.

What I have been seeing in centers as I conduct ECERS, is that a teacher ALWAYS stands at the open door while children are toileting. She ensures that the children are not playing, that the toilet is flushed, and that each child washes their hands properly. I have conducted three ECERS in the past week and every one of them managed toileting routines the same way.

[nannyde]

I was thinking the exact same thing! Also, I believe alot of providers said very recently that if a child couldn't-tell them and go on their own, wipe, flush, wash hands, etc. that they weren't considered potty trained. So would this child not be considered potty trained? In fact if I remember correctly Nannyde you were one of them that said that! What would happen if this happened in a center? I don't think children are not supervised one on one at centers at this age.

Yes that's my definition of potty trained. It doesn't have anything to do with whether or not they have to have supervision while they are in the bathroom.

Do you have a link where I said a four year old needs privacy in the bathroom... privacy from ME?

Because we cannot allow children to just go in and out of the room to freely use the potty they MUST learn they have to tell us so that we can accompany them into the room and supervise them.

[nannyde]

I guess for your age group that works, however, I would never be able to teach if I had to stop everytime a kid needed to go to the bathroom. I do have the rule of one person at a time and the door is always kept ajar. I have never had issues with any of the kids putting things in the toilet, but I think this is because I have potty trained every child that is here and they know the rules from way back in the day.

I don't have an assistant, its just little ol me. So I have no choice but to let them use the toilet on thier own. Plus I think that age the age of 4 they should be able to do so without constant supervision and direction from an adult... You have to cut the ties at some point and trust that they can do it on their own...IMO.....

Having a helper isn't by accident here. My business is built around the low child to adult ratios.

I have birth to five and I don't "teach".

You said "I have never had issues with any of the kids putting things in the toilet, but I think this is because I have potty trained every child that is here and they know the rules from way back in the day".

I'll bet the OP has never had issues with kids putting things down the toilet either. It just takes one day to do 10K of damage.