Unlicensed Providers ?????

[mommyneedsadayoff]

This is down right sad.

We are going to be seeing a lot of it.

Not everyone can afford to get the education and fill the required supply lists necessary to opt in but also can't really afford to check out.

Especially older providers who also have limited opportunity to re-enter the general workforce due to time out of it.

I think this is the mainstream for many areas. I honestly cannot disagree with the reasoning in some people's cases. I don't think it is just a money thing, though. I think the regulation of a person's private home is where people get scared off. Privacy is so important and with in home daycare, it is sort of a catch 22. We want to run our business in our home, but we also do not want to give up our privacy or freedom in our home. I think during daycare hours, people find it reasonable to have certain rules and regs, but I think the main roadblock is when they start making regs for after hours (no smoking on property is one example).

And as the regs change and get tougher, more and more people don't want to deal with, because as we have talked about before, wages for dcp have not risen much int he past 20 years, but the requirements and over reach in to the home certainly has, imo.

[Cat Herder]

What I do have issues with is those that choose to consciously do things illegally.

I don't understand is the idea that just because you (general you) "think" you have found a loophole to skirt the law that it's some how okay or acceptable.

It's that attitude and that type of mindset that has caused damage to this profession far more than any government regulation or rule.

It's people that feel as if the rules apply to everyone but themselves.

Preaching to the choir... ::::

I took out loans to do it legally, then applied for grants to complete the process.

I do fear more illegal providers will be emboldened. (FTR, Illegal and Legally Unlicensed are not the same thing for lurkers. Do your due diligence. )

[Blackcat31]

Preaching to the choir... ::::

I took out loans to do it legally, then applied for grants to complete the process.

I do fear more illegal providers will be emboldened. (FTR, Illegal and Legally Unlicensed are not the same thing for lurkers. Do your due diligence. )

I know...
I just can't not say it.

[Blackcat31]

I guess I'm old school, but I think that you can't issue a blanket judgement for operating illegally. I would continue to operate as I do now. I would hate to see the "keeping 15 kids in front of a tv all day" type of care, but I can't see anything wrong with a parent sending her child to a nice lady who watches a child or two, especially if she has good references or if you know her. I think blanket judgements don't always fit here.

Totally not understanding what you mean or what you are implying....

Illegal is illegal.

15 kids or 2 kids...if the law requires a provider in a certain state to be licensed when they take in X number of kids but the provider takes just one more than X, she/he is illegal.

That is not a blanket statement.
That is a factual statement.

[Melissa67]

,this is so ironic,I said the same thing to another provider,they can't come in my house without a warrant, how would they know what I'm doing.I agree about the 15 kids and just looking at tv,but an extra one or two,it's not that serious.the state lady said as long as I don't get any complaints,I won't even see her.

[Blackcat31]

,this is so ironic,I said the same thing to another provider,they can't come in my house without a warrant, how would they know what I'm doing.I agree about the 15 kids and just looking at tv,but an extra one or two,it's not that serious.the state lady said as long as I don't get any complaints,I won't even see her.

um okay....

[Rockgirl]

,this is so ironic,I said the same thing to another provider,they can't come in my house without a warrant, how would they know what I'm doing.I agree about the 15 kids and just looking at tv,but an extra one or two,it's not that serious.the state lady said as long as I don't get any complaints,I won't even see her.

What if you DO get a complaint? What then? I'm thinking the fallout will be worse than if you were legal and got a complaint. If you're legal and doing everything on the up-and-up, your licensing rep should be there to back you up. If you operate illegally, who is there to show you've been following procedures?

[Cat Herder]

Is there a resource that states the penalties for operating illegally for all 50 states? I have been searching this afternoon and it is hit or miss. Standard seems to be $1000 per day and up to 90 days in jail.

Worst I found was 30 days in prison, but there was a death involved.

Stats for actual prosecution? I came up with nothing...

[nanglgrl]

Is there a resource that states the penalties for operating illegally for all 50 states? I have been searching this afternoon and it is hit or miss. Standard seems to be $1000 per day and up to 90 days in jail.

Worst I found was 30 days in prison, but there was a death involved.

Stats for actual prosecution? I came up with nothing...

In Iowa we have registered-rules, unannounced inspections or unregistered-no inspections, a couple of requirements but no way to enforce them...both legal as long as you're within numbers. If you want to specialize in infants you're better going unregistered since you can have 5 of any age. There are three levels to registered where you can have a couple more children but you can never have more than 3 under 18 months/4 under 24 months if registered. So I understand why someone in this state who wanted to watch infants only would be unregistered.
If you operate illegally in Iowa you get a letter telling you to stop and then...nothing. Next time someone complains you get a letter, maybe a visit but doubtful and since you're unregistered it's not like you have to let them in and talk to them. It's sad and is a constant topic of debate in my providers group where most registered providers don't have enough children enrolled to require them to be registered.
For the record I'm registered, do QRS and all of the other programs because that's the future of care I often wonder why I jump through the hoops though.

[Melissa67]

I don't need anyone to back me up,I've been doing this for 21 years,I have my reputation and my past monitoring paperwork,parents references to speak for me, I do understand where you guys are coming from, I'll just have to see what happens,if it even comes to that,I may just retire and call it a rap,travel with hubby. thanks for all the responses,it was intresting to read

[nannyde]

In Iowa we have registered-rules, unannounced inspections or unregistered-no inspections, a couple of requirements but no way to enforce them...both legal as long as you're within numbers. If you want to specialize in infants you're better going unregistered since you can have 5 of any age. There are three levels to registered where you can have a couple more children but you can never have more than 3 under 18 months/4 under 24 months if registered. So I understand why someone in this state who wanted to watch infants only would be unregistered.
If you operate illegally in Iowa you get a letter telling you to stop and then...nothing. Next time someone complains you get a letter, maybe a visit but doubtful and since you're unregistered it's not like you have to let them in and talk to them. It's sad and is a constant topic of debate in my providers group where most registered providers don't have enough children enrolled to require them to be registered.
For the record I'm registered, do QRS and all of the other programs because that's the future of care I often wonder why I jump through the hoops though.

A copy of the letter is sent to the DA's office so they have a record... BUT and this is a big BUT..

If the provider says they can't come in they have to get a court order to come into the home and inspect. With SO many of the complaints coming from people who are on internet groups with providers and competition with providers.. it's kinda tough to get a judge to use their complaint as a reason to issue a court order to enter someone's home.

I just had someone who read the free preview of my book off of Amazon and called the DHS on me. They have a stack way high of internet complaints on me. The last one was funny because I haven't done child care for 2.5 years. Nevertheless they keep calling the state on me. I know of at least ten since I stopped doing daycare. Who knows how many there are I don't know about.

People who have never met me but are SO concerned about the safety of the kids they HAVE to turn me in.

It's tough to get a judge to issue a search warrant when the caller is someone who has never met the provider, never seen their house, never seen a daycare kid, doesn't know a single parent, lives in another state OR is just another provider who is jealous of the business the provider claims to have and wants it shut down.

It's illegal in Iowa to lie to a governmental official. If I were to receive one of those letters I would call the sender (DHS) and tell them they BETTER be dang sure the callers were real, had direct knowledge of my business, and proof of their complaint. If they go to the judge and present fake complaints they will HAVE to divulge the callers and their knowledge of my noncompliance. I will take legal action against the state and the complaintants. Just as you have warned me with a letter... I'm warning you with a letter. You better be right if you come knocking at my door with a search warrant.

You won't be right because I won't be wrong... believe that. Think twice about using a judge to get into my house. I have the resources to fight and fight hard and I will use them. I have zero fear of the DHS.

[nannyde]

1.0 out of 5 stars
The One Star Reviews are Accurate
ByNancy Drewon May 23, 2016

Format: Kindle Edition

Bullying in any form gets my attention. I downloaded the free sample and this red flag popped up when Tori Fees wrote: "Do not worry about calling the state. I already did. I hope they come over and do your "retaliatory complaint inspection" while we are having your children's "gone away" party. I am having it catered and hiring a dog and pony show."

It told me this day care likely has had complaints with this use of a pre-emptive bully tactic to intimidate families from reporting issues of concern about her daycare especially since in her introduction she reports some kind of moment where a child could have died, but she is not transparent or forthcoming in her book about what that was. What led to a child being in danger in her day care? She doesn't tell the reader. But she has lots of judgment against parents.

I tried to find her on the Iowa Human Service Department website. She did not pull up. I called the DHS agency who at first guarded seeming did not to give me any information on this woman, "Is this someone you want to use?" No, just want to know if she, indeed, holds a license. Told, "not an active provider." OK. When did she become inactive and was her license revoked? They can't tell me that. After asking if this was not public information I was given the information that she no longer had a license as of 2014. The book was published in 2014. Any complaints? Her license revoked? "That's another agency that handles complaints."

Her Facebook page was last updated in June of 2015.

As Paul Harvey would say, "Now for the rest of the story." But we don't have it. The state agency said they would get back to me with the rest of the information. From the time of the book getting published until now something happened and she publicly through her Facebook page isn't telling the readers.

The book I would recommend for parents is Mary Sauder's book: "Doing Time: Growing up in Daycare". As a family home child day care licensor for thirteen years I noted what she wrote is what I picked up on from my time in attempting to provide oversight and enforcement actions of licensed day care provider for parents who had no choice but to leave their children in daycare. Mary's day to day witnessing confirms my take on the industry. The book is well written and kind towards parents. It is the eye opener I would recommend parents read. There is another story in the government's failure to provide oversight and enforcement action.

I will update my review when I hear back from the Iowa state child day care licensing department. There must be at least one investigation on record, at least, into the safety violation that led to a child being at such great risk she admits there could have been a death in her day care.

In terms of reader reviewer accuracy the "One Star Reviews" have it, in my opinion.


And my response:

Yet another reviewer who didn't purchase the book. I do agree with you about Mary Saunders book. My review of it is the number one review she has. It's quite an in depth review because I actually bought it and read it... unlike you with my book.

Your investigating abilities seem to be quite limited. If you would have done a simple people search on me you would have seen I moved to Northwood Iowa in April of 2014. I took a year off to write books. This one was published in August of 2014. My license was never revoked. In fact, what you will find as you continue your search is five consecutive years of unannounced visits where I earned 100 percent compliance on every single inspection! The DHS started yearly inspections in 2008.

Regarding a full description of the mistake I made, well you will have to wait until the book I am writing regarding child care safety comes out. I intentionally decided to include it in a chapter about equipment safety. This book is about parental behavior so that aspect of the mistake I made was covered in the book.

I have cared for kids for three decades. I don't think you will find a provider on the planet who hasn't made a serious mistake if they have a long standing career. I have never had a kid go from my house to seek medical care for something that happened on my watch. Regardless, when you have staff and use equipment you can have a failure in your system that you couldn't have possibly seen coming. I didn't have the experience with the equipment to know it could be harmful even though I had twenty years of using the equipment.

Everyone makes mistakes. I'm not immune to that. I'm fortunate that it was a "near miss" and nothing happened to the child. What I believed could have happened didn't. The mistake could have led to harm to the child but it didn't because our supervision of children is so intense that the mistake was caught and the equipment replaced immediately. I was very lucky and learned my lesson. We are all human and even with decades of experience you CAN make a mistake because of lack of knowledge and lack of foresight because of the lack of knowledge. Lightening does strike, even with the most vigilant safety protocol and supervision.

A more specific discussion will come as the series "Doing Daycare" comes out. Hopefully you will actually buy that book before you review it.

You are one of ***many*** internet detectives who have called the State of Iowa to get my record. I had many outraged online providers and online parents calling them when I did daycare from postings I made on daycare dot com and other internet boards I have participated in for two decades. Your investigation isn't special. They are used to it.

The story you wrote about "retaliatory" complaints is in a fictitious letter I wrote at the beginning of the book that was used to illustrate what a provider WISHES she could say after terminating a very badly behaved parent with badly behaved children. You do know it wasn't real ... right? Suggesting I gave such a letter to a parent who I termed to bully them is so silly. Every industry has issues with customers. Child care isn't any different. Anyone in business wishes they could be brutally honest with the customers they choose not to serve because of customer behavior. It was fun to write but in real life a termination letter from me would be quite simple. "As of X date we are no longer able to provide service for your family." I would however give them the name and phone number of my licensor and would make a call to the licensor to let them know a termination was forthcoming in the next two weeks. That's good business not bullying. Nearly every parent who is booted from a daycare makes that call. Make it first.

Keep up your investigation. I have heard about the online complaints and investigations throughout the years from strangers who have never met me nor had a kid in my care. I'm really anxious to hear about your results. All I hear about is the inquiry. It will be great to hear about your "findings". If you are as good as Nancy Drew in solving mysteries you will find there isn't a mystery in the first place.

If I can help you in any way getting access to my file, please message me through the Daycare Whisperer Facebook page or my personal one. I would be more than happy to sign any consent you need to give you full access. I believe you have to go directly to the DHS and read the file on site for providers who are not currently registered or are no longer doing child care. If you can make it to Des Moines, I can help you navigate the process to release the file. Just let me know if I can help in any way. Tori

[Cat Herder]

:::::: Nan. Wow. I had no idea.

Now I wonder what kind of complaints the onion gets.....

[nanglgrl]

1.0 out of 5 stars
The One Star Reviews are Accurate
ByNancy Drewon May 23, 2016

Format: Kindle Edition

Bullying in any form gets my attention. I downloaded the free sample and this red flag popped up when Tori Fees wrote: "Do not worry about calling the state. I already did. I hope they come over and do your "retaliatory complaint inspection" while we are having your children's "gone away" party. I am having it catered and hiring a dog and pony show."

It told me this day care likely has had complaints with this use of a pre-emptive bully tactic to intimidate families from reporting issues of concern about her daycare especially since in her introduction she reports some kind of moment where a child could have died, but she is not transparent or forthcoming in her book about what that was. What led to a child being in danger in her day care? She doesn't tell the reader. But she has lots of judgment against parents.

I tried to find her on the Iowa Human Service Department website. She did not pull up. I called the DHS agency who at first guarded seeming did not to give me any information on this woman, "Is this someone you want to use?" No, just want to know if she, indeed, holds a license. Told, "not an active provider." OK. When did she become inactive and was her license revoked? They can't tell me that. After asking if this was not public information I was given the information that she no longer had a license as of 2014. The book was published in 2014. Any complaints? Her license revoked? "That's another agency that handles complaints."

Her Facebook page was last updated in June of 2015.

As Paul Harvey would say, "Now for the rest of the story." But we don't have it. The state agency said they would get back to me with the rest of the information. From the time of the book getting published until now something happened and she publicly through her Facebook page isn't telling the readers.

The book I would recommend for parents is Mary Sauder's book: "Doing Time: Growing up in Daycare". As a family home child day care licensor for thirteen years I noted what she wrote is what I picked up on from my time in attempting to provide oversight and enforcement actions of licensed day care provider for parents who had no choice but to leave their children in daycare. Mary's day to day witnessing confirms my take on the industry. The book is well written and kind towards parents. It is the eye opener I would recommend parents read. There is another story in the government's failure to provide oversight and enforcement action.

I will update my review when I hear back from the Iowa state child day care licensing department. There must be at least one investigation on record, at least, into the safety violation that led to a child being at such great risk she admits there could have been a death in her day care.

In terms of reader reviewer accuracy the "One Star Reviews" have it, in my opinion.


And my response:

Yet another reviewer who didn't purchase the book. I do agree with you about Mary Saunders book. My review of it is the number one review she has. It's quite an in depth review because I actually bought it and read it... unlike you with my book.

Your investigating abilities seem to be quite limited. If you would have done a simple people search on me you would have seen I moved to Northwood Iowa in April of 2014. I took a year off to write books. This one was published in August of 2014. My license was never revoked. In fact, what you will find as you continue your search is five consecutive years of unannounced visits where I earned 100 percent compliance on every single inspection! The DHS started yearly inspections in 2008.

Regarding a full description of the mistake I made, well you will have to wait until the book I am writing regarding child care safety comes out. I intentionally decided to include it in a chapter about equipment safety. This book is about parental behavior so that aspect of the mistake I made was covered in the book.

I have cared for kids for three decades. I don't think you will find a provider on the planet who hasn't made a serious mistake if they have a long standing career. I have never had a kid go from my house to seek medical care for something that happened on my watch. Regardless, when you have staff and use equipment you can have a failure in your system that you couldn't have possibly seen coming. I didn't have the experience with the equipment to know it could be harmful even though I had twenty years of using the equipment.

Everyone makes mistakes. I'm not immune to that. I'm fortunate that it was a "near miss" and nothing happened to the child. What I believed could have happened didn't. The mistake could have led to harm to the child but it didn't because our supervision of children is so intense that the mistake was caught and the equipment replaced immediately. I was very lucky and learned my lesson. We are all human and even with decades of experience you CAN make a mistake because of lack of knowledge and lack of foresight because of the lack of knowledge. Lightening does strike, even with the most vigilant safety protocol and supervision.

A more specific discussion will come as the series "Doing Daycare" comes out. Hopefully you will actually buy that book before you review it.

You are one of ***many*** internet detectives who have called the State of Iowa to get my record. I had many outraged online providers and online parents calling them when I did daycare from postings I made on daycare dot com and other internet boards I have participated in for two decades. Your investigation isn't special. They are used to it.

The story you wrote about "retaliatory" complaints is in a fictitious letter I wrote at the beginning of the book that was used to illustrate what a provider WISHES she could say after terminating a very badly behaved parent with badly behaved children. You do know it wasn't real ... right? Suggesting I gave such a letter to a parent who I termed to bully them is so silly. Every industry has issues with customers. Child care isn't any different. Anyone in business wishes they could be brutally honest with the customers they choose not to serve because of customer behavior. It was fun to write but in real life a termination letter from me would be quite simple. "As of X date we are no longer able to provide service for your family." I would however give them the name and phone number of my licensor and would make a call to the licensor to let them know a termination was forthcoming in the next two weeks. That's good business not bullying. Nearly every parent who is booted from a daycare makes that call. Make it first.

Keep up your investigation. I have heard about the online complaints and investigations throughout the years from strangers who have never met me nor had a kid in my care. I'm really anxious to hear about your results. All I hear about is the inquiry. It will be great to hear about your "findings". If you are as good as Nancy Drew in solving mysteries you will find there isn't a mystery in the first place.

If I can help you in any way getting access to my file, please message me through the Daycare Whisperer Facebook page or my personal one. I would be more than happy to sign any consent you need to give you full access. I believe you have to go directly to the DHS and read the file on site for providers who are not currently registered or are no longer doing child care. If you can make it to Des Moines, I can help you navigate the process to release the file. Just let me know if I can help in any way. Tori

That's too bad Nan. The worst part is even the little bit of work DHS has to do deal with the complainer and the file the false complaint on you takes away services from children who are actually being abused. I really wish all states would come up with a way to deal with obviously false complaints.

I've only turned in an unregistered provider once. She had at least 13 kids in care instead of 5, had two unfenced pools in her yard and had pictures online if a young infant swaddled in a huge blanket laying on a couch on their stomach. She had previously been a registered provider so she knew the rules. In fact she had several state pay children in her care and with a little investigating they could have discovered that just with state pay children she had more than allowed if they would have looked at how many children they were paying her for and the submitted hours. She was close to my location but I didn't think if her as competition and that's definitely not why I turned her in. First it was the safety of the children, next it was the pools..the state is 1 accident away from not allowing pools at all and I have a properly fenced pool with extra safety measures, then it was that she lived on my street. It's a long street and she's not close by but if something happens you can bet the news report would say "unlicensed provider...X street...drowning" etc. and since it's the same street it could hurt my business because people tend not to look at the whole story.

[Alwaysgreener]

I was licensed for 8 yrs, in NYS. I gave it back. Yep
.I work underground. I follow 98% of the regs..even with paperwork. I have never had trouble filling spots. I have had teachers..nurses..lawyers..border control officers..all mandated reporters.I believe if you have a solid reputation, you can easily fill spots.
Here's some info that I have learned...call it a loophole if you will.
A. You do not have to let any government official or police officer into YOUR house. The only way they can come in is if the have a warrant. A warrant has to be from judge. They judge has to be given factual info for them to issue it.
B. There is a federal privacy law..stating that you can not give out info on a person under the age of 18 without parental consent.
What does that mean? If the state/cps/police comes to my door..I.ask them to leave my property. Unless they have a warrant...I do not have to answer questions. YOU should never let anyone in...what ever they observe they can use against you. They can lie and twist things to their advantage. Watch any cps video. If you do answer the door...you cannot give any info on any.children.in your care without parental consent. So..they are stuck between a rock and a hard place. For them to prove you have unrelated children..and they are in your home for more than 3 hrs on a regular basis( N.Y.s regs) would cost them hundreds of man hours. They don't have the manpower to do it.
Why am I underground...because when I had my license..a licensor lied...I had written proof...but because it's the state..they can do no wrong.

So do you file your taxes? Where do you say you got your income from? Are you still able to get all the deduction that I get for being legal?