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i was referring to this point about the "middle class" which really isn't even a good word: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...g=content;col1
Children and students at all levels would benefit from implementing a universal preschool system. However, the students who would benefit most are the students that are most commonly overlooked, children just above the poverty line. The current system of providing preschool for only some of the nation's children is unacceptable.
Currently, there are primarily two sectors of children who receive a preschool education; those who can afford a private education and those who are beneath the poverty line and qualify for federally funded programs. "Families with incomes just below the national average ($40,000-$50,000) have less access to high-quality preschool than poorer or wealthier families. The wealthy families can afford good private programs. The poorer families are more likely to have access to targeted programs."2 "The need for preschool education does not cease when family incomes exceed the income thresholds for targeted state (and federal) programs. Children in these families constitute a large underserved population and deserve access to high-quality preschool programs."3
And when I asked what the issue was, I meant *your* issue, assuming as a preschool operator that this has something to do with it:
Another benefit of universal preschool is that state and federally funded schools would force private preschools to improve so that they avoid losing students to government funded schools. By demanding quality programs for children ages three to five, extra pressure would be placed on private preschools not only to comply with the standards, but to exceed the standards in order to continue to draw students. Currently, the majority of children who attend private preschools are from middle and upper class socio-economic backgrounds.8 These children's parents have the resources, understand the vital importance of a quality education, and are willing to spend substantial sums of money to ensure this quality education. These parents will continue to pay for preschools providing a superior education.
"These parents will continue to pay for preschool providing a superior education."
i said, "public school is offered to all children and people still choose to send their children to private schools."
same point.
you know it wasn't that long ago in historical terms that this same issue came up concerning kindergarten. yes, schools are cutting programs, but around here it's typically things like "spanish class" for kindergarteners which i think is great since most of them aren't competent in english. what you DON'T see being cut are the football teams. when they start cutting those, then there's a crisis.
it can be argued that the people who can afford preschool should pay for it and it shouldn't be publicly funded, but couldn't the same be said of students in K-12?
it's true that the only real gains in preschool that are documented take place with low income children. it's also true that most research has been focused on programs such as head start, and let's not forget - the govt. funded programs have higher standards for their teachers and even still aren't high enough (compared to k-12). the same thing would happen if pre-k became universal. the standards for teachers would be higher. only THEN could the benefits to middle/upper class be accurately compared.Comment
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In all the reading I do on "preschool" I always have this nagging notion in the back of my head.
I wonder what REALLY happens when you get a room full of three year olds or four year olds. What do they actually DO during that time.. that three hours four days a week like Head Start has.
Our Head Start does breakfast, lunch, and has outdoor time. They have about a half hour for breakfast, half hour for lunch, and about a half hour for outdoor time when the weather allows.
These three things take up half of the time the kids are there.
So that leaves one and a half hours and part of that HAS to be dressing and undressing upon arrival, departure, and going outside. So let's say that's fifteen minutes.
Now we are at 1.25 hours left.
In that 1.25 hours my suspicion is that they do "circle time" with weather, clocks, calanders, and maybe some reading to the kids.
My suspicion is that as the year progresses from September to May that the time they are IN the classroom that the amount of free play and the clean up of free play pretty much takes a higher and higher amount of time. I can see more "academics" in the top part of the year but as the adults get weary and they see that the kids won't really DO academics unless they have an adult just for them... they find that the "easiest" thing to do is to have them play toys and supervise.
They are supposed to interact with the kids during the free time but there really isn't any measurable way of insisting on that unless the teachers are being supervised daily.
I think they do crafts but the crafts they actually do... the adults do the most of it. They look cool but when deconstructed they really are primarily done by the teachers because little kids can't really DO crafts that will please the parents and make them look like something great to hang up. I think a lot of the adult time is making the crafts into segments that the kids can "stick glue" together or color on... so when the end product gets sent home what you really see is that the kid colored and did a splash or two of gluing.
I think with the ever increasing behavior issues with kids from every economic group that the majority of what the adults do is watching them play and dealing with ill behaved kids who can turn a classroom upside down and seize the adult time by doing what they do at home every day without check and correct.
I think this leaves the adults (regardless of their education level) where survival mode is to keep everything plain and simple as possible so that they have the energy to put out the behavior fires.
I'm not saying they don't do a little this and a little that to teach the actual letters, to teach shapes or numbers identification... but I think that's pretty much all the have the time, ability, and wherewithall to do over a school year.
My son went to Head Start special needs program as a three year old and then an integrated Head Start/pay regular ed program as a four year old. I had the pleasure of dropping in a few times (I started a socks for tots program where I got businesses to donate money for kids socks as the HS teachers told me this was one of their highest needs in the fall, winter, and spring) and the difference between what I saw in the classroom from the begining of the year and the end of the year was as different as night and day.
The begining of the year there were tons of maniplulatives out, painting, sensorty tables, arts stuff etc. He came home with quite a bit of "crafts" but when really looked at ... it was clear he couldn't have done them.
By the end of the year I had visited enough to know the schedule and such a huge portion of the day was not about any kind of education.
By the end of the year what I saw out and available were things that required little to no adult involvement. The painting was replaced with "stamps" and paper. The sensory tables were replaced with boxes of thick crayons, papers, and coloring pages. The toys out were toys that could not be abused without outright poor behavior that leads to injury. The books avialable were put up out of reach... and many many less books were available.
I guess I just wonder if this sort of downsizing and just having them actually THERE is what it comes to once kids are in a classroom over nine months. I think it's difficult to sustain a learning environment when a) they are really too young to learn and APPLY the learning and b) the adults are really consumed with care (feeding, dressing, toileting) and safety-disciplene supervision.
I just am not feeling that with the ratios that are given for this age group if you really CAN do education that is sustainable. When you have one to eight... one to ten... one to twelve etc. the natural flow of things becomes supervision and survival not education.
I'm not convinced the education of the adult is the ultimate key. I think the ratio... a very very low kid to adult ratio is the number one key to our success here. We never have more than four kids to an adult and most days it is three to thee and a half. I think it's never going to work on a mass scale if we don't look pensively at the ratios and class size. I think we wholly overestimate what kind of ratios kids can be in and prosper even WITH educated adults.
It's complicated and no one is really doing it right and proviing it with educational outcomes that are measurable in core subjects. It begs the question if it can and should be done in the first place.Comment
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I wish I would have been a part of this discussion from the beginning, but sometimes this forum is a full time job in itself!
Part of what you're saying about 3-hour preschool program is accurate, part is not. Obviously, this is just my experience but I have worked in head start and non head start programs. I have worked in full day and part day. I have work in state and federally funded programs and private pay programs.
All of the centers that I have worked in have followed developmentally appropriate practice and have either been accredited by Naeyc or were in the process of being accredited. I say this not to impress you (I know that it wouldn't
), but to highlight that there is a HUGE difference between centers that follow developmentally appropriate practices and those that do not. Usually the centers that follow DAP are federally or state funded and also some corporate centers do as well (Bright Horizons is one of those-or at least, was when I worked there about 10 yrs ago). Centers that do not follow DAP are typically smaller, privately owned centers where the requirement for the director is to have 12 or 24- ECE units.
I go into this discussion about DAP because a lot of what you mentioned that you assume these centers are doing is NOT DAP. Worksheets, formal academics, and teacher-directed crafts have NO place in a DAP preschool and as I stated earlier MOST state and federally funded programs follow DAP.
Weather, calendar and clocks are NOT DAP when they are done at circle time everyday as some preschools do them (fewer and fewer are doing them this way). They can be done in a DAP, meaningful way that is probably beyond the scope of this discussion, but I'd be happy to go into it if you'd like.
There are stringent guidelines for federally and state funded preschools. The teachers CANNOT and DO NOT slack off toward the end of the year. They have a daily routine that they follow all year long, which includes some free play, meals, outside time, small group time, circle time. Here's an example of what a daily routine in a 3-hr program may look like:
8:30-9:00 Breakfast
9:00-9:15 Circle
9:15-9:45 Outside
9:45-10:15 Small Group
10:15-11:00 Free play
11:00-11:10 Clean-up
11:10-11:30 Snack
This is the routine we used when I was a director of a state-funded preschool in California.
One of the main tenants of a DAP preschool is to thoughtfully consider the role of the teacher. These teachers do NOT just carry the children through this routine. They do NOT just sit around while the children are playing in free play (please note, I know you did not say that).
The teacher's role is to facilitate children's play. That means:
1. They arrange the children's environment in ways that support their particular group of children's learning and development.
2. They plan developmentally appropriate activities and experiences for the children (ideally planning them for the specific group of children in their care and for their interests and skills)
3. They interact with the children in a way that shows that they know where their children are developmentally and they are aware of the next stage of their development.
The teacher's role is to observe children. Typically (at least in these state and federally funded programs, and also at Bright Horizons), the teachers write anecdotal notes of the children's skills and development. That means that they watch the children during play (sometimes the teachers are interacting with the children and sometimes they are just observing) and they write down when they see the children demonstrating a particular skill or demonstrating language development, etc. These notes then are used to direct the lesson plans, as these notes show the teachers where developmentally their children are and also what their interests are.
The teacher's role is also of course to plan activities for the children. In every DAP center that I've worked in, the teachers plan a small group activity. A small group activity may have 8-10 children and usually one teacher. The teacher has planned an activity specifically for those particular children in her small group. She may read a book and have the children draw or paint pictures about that book. In a DAP preschool, there is NO PLACE for teacher-directed crafts where all the crafts look the same (sometimes if you see head start programs do this, they are not following NAEYC guidelines and they should not be doing these 'parent pleasers'. I know they used to do some of this, but I don't know if they still include this in part of their curriculum). The teachers also plan for every other part of the day. They plan for the outside play- maybe bringing out particular toys or having one of the teachers involved in an outside activity (parachute or bubbles) while the other is roaming the yard and observing other children and taking care of any problems when they arise, etc.). The teachers also plan circle time activities, games and songs.
Also, the curriculum doesn't stop just because the children are having a meal. The children are served using family-style meals. The children serve themselves and have to count out their crackers. The teachers also sit down with the children and also engage in eating the meal. They model appropriate manners, they model eating a variety of foods (I cannot tell you how many times I ate foods that I don't particularly like because I knew it was important to show the children that these foods are good and important for our bodies). They also engage the children in discussions. Often these are lively discussions about whatever is going on in the children's day, what's going on at home, what might be planned for the preschool day. Often the children lead the direction of this discussion and may talk about the colors that they are wearing (I once went through a period of about a month with a group of children that every single day that was the discussion at the table!). The possibilities for language development, discussion of math and science concepts, and the discussion of real world things is endless during meals (as I'm sure you well know).
There is also an entire discussion on children's assessment that I could get into. But, I'm tired. This is by far the longest post I've ever written and I need a little break.... Please, someone else feel free to chime in about preschools. I'd also be happy to answer any questions about what happens in a preschool from anyone. I think there are a lot of misconceptions about early childhood education from those that haven't been trained in ECE and I hope that those that have worked in preschools or have been trained in ECE will speak up.
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You bring up a lot of good points. All valid and all with the potential of happening. First, you need really -really good people. People that want to be there, have lots and lots of patience, understand early childhood development, have good management skills, can listen and are kind and nurturing. From my past experience the one holding the masters degree isn't always that person. They go to school, work hard, study, earn their degree and have the ideal they will go to a classroom, the children will sit with their hands folded and they can "teach". The reality of working in a preschool soon sets in and, yes, they are in survival mode. So, while education is important, the experience, personality and temperament of the "preschool teacher" is a very big factor.
Class size must be small. Classroom must be organized. Class must have a structured day. Yes, children will need assistance with many of the crafts. Sometimes the craft is just the experience of using the instruments. Holding the paint brush, scrunching the tissue paper, using the glue sticks/crayons.
Crafts are also an opportunity to teach children to follow simple direction. (a very important skill to know) It provides an opportunity to talk about colors, textures, shapes etc. Looking at the craft isn't a true reflection of what is done. It is the engagement that goes on between the teacher (or preschool teacher ) and the child while the craft is being worked on. In a good preschool, there is always teaching going on, even while the teacher is assisting with things the child isn't able to do themselves.
"Academic" time is exposure to literature, numbers, letters, sounds. It is a chance to engage children in conversation to build language and listening skills.
It is a lot of hard work but can be done well if you have the right staff.
I do believe children benefit from a preschool experience. They can develop many valuable skills.Comment
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Do you understand Florida's system?They won't be able to show you. All of the studies advocates base their claims from were small scale studies done on the extremely disadvantaged children. They take the benefits of these small scale programs that were done decades ago and try to apply the benefits to the larger population. The advocates are not representing the entire picture and are cherry picking the benefits. I agree with you and am happy to see there are others who understand it. To learn more visit www.prioritizepre-k.com
They have vouchers for four year old preK that are like 2700 bucks per kid and it's mostly done by private providers.
Do the kids that get state funded DAY CARE also get that subisidy in ADDITION to the 2670 bucks for the 540 hours of preK? So if a kid comes to a Center or "school" they have both the child care (for the other hours per day they are there) funding PLUS the school money? This would mean that the state paid four year old who was in child care for ten hours a day would bring like ten grand to the table?
I also don't understand their summer thing. Is the summer option in ADDITION to the school year or THE preschool education (300 hours over the summer). If it isn't then do they get the 2670 for the nine/ten weeks the same as the ones that do three hours a day during the school year? Or... is it required to offer the additional 300 summer hours on top of the 540 hours they do during the school year for the same money? Can one kid get preschool for the school year AND summer for just the 2670 or does it have to be one or the other.
Since the private pay parents have to pay for their own day care I can see how this subsidy would be in ADDITION to the amount the parents give for day care. Either scenario.... state paid child care plus education money or private pay day care plus education money is going to net the provider a pretty princely sum for each individual kid.
It makes me think THIS is why the private sector has taken on the preschool. There is money to be made if you combine both sources of funding. I can see providers specifically looking for the kids who come with BOTH packages (state funded child care and school money). It would be the first time in our country where state paid kids were the most highly sought after kids as long as the money they got for child care wasn't affected by the subsidy they get for the school.
That kind of money would make it WORTH it profit wise to actually HAVE educational measurable outcomes.
Is this what you are thinking for your business? Getting state monies per kid plus the subisidized child care and or private pay for the child care?
I would think it would mean actually getting PAID for doing the education. I think most providers would be thrilled to get care money and education money for each kid instead of what most get... which is just care money that often isn't enough to cover a good salary for care.
Heck I would even do preschool if I could get nearly five bucks an hour per kid per day in three hour blocks in addition to their care money.
If they are cutting the tuition for care and substituting the 2760 per kid to decrease the cost of child care to the parents then I can't see it working. Meaning if a kids parents paid seven hundred a month for day care but with the subsidey the center lowered it to four hundred a month because the other three hundred was provided by the voucher... it wouldn't really be worth it to do it. If the Center got their seven hundred a month PLUS the three hundred a month the voucher brought THEN I could see it working. (easy math but you get the point)
So how does it work?
I know there must be some market where the kids just come for the free three hours of school and don't use any other service. My guess is that these kids are not so highly sought after and could affect the total take on the other kids who get both funding. If that is the case, is there businesses that can refuse enrolling kids who have parents that just want the free three hour deal? Those kids would just fund in at about five dollars per hour. I can't see fifteen a day per kid really benefiting the business unless you could do three classes back to back a day with just preschool kids. You would have to have some other form of income for the slot for those kids.Comment
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My issue is small potatoes compared to the larger issue. Yes, as a preschool owner, I am losing business. But I will survive.i was referring to this point about the "middle class" which really isn't even a good word: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...g=content;col1
Children and students at all levels would benefit from implementing a universal preschool system. However, the students who would benefit most are the students that are most commonly overlooked, children just above the poverty line. The current system of providing preschool for only some of the nation's children is unacceptable.
Currently, there are primarily two sectors of children who receive a preschool education; those who can afford a private education and those who are beneath the poverty line and qualify for federally funded programs. "Families with incomes just below the national average ($40,000-$50,000) have less access to high-quality preschool than poorer or wealthier families. The wealthy families can afford good private programs. The poorer families are more likely to have access to targeted programs."2 "The need for preschool education does not cease when family incomes exceed the income thresholds for targeted state (and federal) programs. Children in these families constitute a large underserved population and deserve access to high-quality preschool programs."3
And when I asked what the issue was, I meant *your* issue, assuming as a preschool operator that this has something to do with it:
Another benefit of universal preschool is that state and federally funded schools would force private preschools to improve so that they avoid losing students to government funded schools. By demanding quality programs for children ages three to five, extra pressure would be placed on private preschools not only to comply with the standards, but to exceed the standards in order to continue to draw students. Currently, the majority of children who attend private preschools are from middle and upper class socio-economic backgrounds.8 These children's parents have the resources, understand the vital importance of a quality education, and are willing to spend substantial sums of money to ensure this quality education. These parents will continue to pay for preschools providing a superior education.
"These parents will continue to pay for preschool providing a superior education."
i said, "public school is offered to all children and people still choose to send their children to private schools."
same point.
you know it wasn't that long ago in historical terms that this same issue came up concerning kindergarten. yes, schools are cutting programs, but around here it's typically things like "spanish class" for kindergarteners which i think is great since most of them aren't competent in english. what you DON'T see being cut are the football teams. when they start cutting those, then there's a crisis.
it can be argued that the people who can afford preschool should pay for it and it shouldn't be publicly funded, but couldn't the same be said of students in K-12?
it's true that the only real gains in preschool that are documented take place with low income children. it's also true that most research has been focused on programs such as head start, and let's not forget - the govt. funded programs have higher standards for their teachers and even still aren't high enough (compared to k-12). the same thing would happen if pre-k became universal. the standards for teachers would be higher. only THEN could the benefits to middle/upper class be accurately compared.
It's no crime to be a business owner and hope to do well. Regardless, as a taxpayer, I also have a problem with "universal" preschool. 80% of children in the nation currently go to preschool. If we need to expand the parameters to allow more children the opportunity, fine. I have a problem with programs that shuffle children from the private sector and put the cost on the taxpayer, especially when those families can well afford to pay for it. This is not good policy for our already suffering economy. By doing this, you are forcing small business to close their door, decreasing tax revenue, increasing unemployment and raising our taxes.
Districts in our area are doing more than cutting sports. They are cutting full day Kindergarten at the same time they have a $1.6 million dollar UPK program running. In my opinion, that just doesn't make sense.
Use our money wisely and restore cuts to K-12 and prioritize pre-k money to those most in need.Comment
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guess i don't know how to attach smiliesComment
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I'm getting a headache just reading about the craziness. What I do know about Florida is that they have been very successful is raising 4th grade reading scores. They went from below the national average to above the national average. According to NIEER, they spend the least amount of money on preschool.
I don't want any state or federal money. I just want to run my business. Childcare is so complex. Is it day care, is it preschool. For the record, my business is 1/2 day preschool. Kids are only there for 2 1/2 hours. Most of my families are stay at home moms.
The goal of the UPK advocates is to provide full day childcare for three and four year old children and have this responsibility fall onto our public school. Our schools are already overburdened. Child care should be handled by the childcare professionals not our public schools.Comment
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The reason I bring up Florida is because on first blush there has to be some reason why the private sector does it. It's got to be money.I'm getting a headache just reading about the craziness. What I do know about Florida is that they have been very successful is raising 4th grade reading scores. They went from below the national average to above the national average. According to NIEER, they spend the least amount of money on preschool.
I don't want any state or federal money. I just want to run my business. Childcare is so complex. Is it day care, is it preschool. For the record, my business is 1/2 day preschool. Kids are only there for 2 1/2 hours. Most of my families are stay at home moms.
The goal of the UPK advocates is to provide full day childcare for three and four year old children and have this responsibility fall onto our public school. Our schools are already overburdened. Child care should be handled by the childcare professionals not our public schools.
We can't determine WHY it works if we don't look at the money and why the private sector is taking it on. Simply put.....if the education money is in ADDITION to the care money not included in the care money THEN you could actually have the funds to do more than care.
If your market is just SAHM's getting 2.5 hours per day X days a week during X times during the year then you must be getting a pretty good sum PER HOUR PER KID to make a living at it. It can't be the five dollar per hour the florida providers are getting just for the three hours per day for 180 days per year. The math doesn't work unless you are allowed VERY VERY high adult to child ratios.
There's no way that stand alone five dollar an hour "school" for four year olds is going to make a difference in test scores. There HAS to be more money (state funded, parent funded, food program etc.)Comment
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Two years ago I had a kid go from my house to the Grand View Park Baptist preschool at age four.
Her Mom gave me the actual hours of service and the days school was in and I figured out to the hour what the cost per hour was total for the year. Two years ago it was 6.72 per hour per kid.
Now they LOOKED like they had a school year but they were quite clever in how they do the payments. Parents pay a flat rate per month starting in August and last payment in May. Thing was that there was only a few hours of actual school in August in May and they took two weeks off at Christmas, one week at spring break, and early outs..no school on Thanksgiving and religious holiday days.
When it was all said and done it was 6.72 per hour. The area I serve the care is about three dollars an hour.
They are very successful but the parents don't really GET the money part of it until they feel the difference between having so many days of not having care at all or shortened days when comparing it to child care. It's litteraly more than twice as expensive so of course they have more services for the individual kids.
No matter how it is sliced there has to be money FOR the schooling and it has to be separate than care money. Any other combo will not produce results that are measurable.Comment
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I don't know what your calendar looks like and how many of those weeks you are not in session but no matter how you slice that this is a very high hourly rate. (looks like maybe a target rate of around eight an hour).
That's GOOD .. it should be that way. I don't think you could compete with the five dollars an hour for stand alone (no child care fee included) that Florida offers. I don't see how Florida can do it either. There HAS to be some other monies in this.Comment
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