How Far Do You Go to Help Families with Home Issues?

[SnowGirl]

So are the kids not getting to bed until 10pm or midnight because the parents don't get home until then? Or does a parent pick them up from you at a reasonable time?

They always pick up at or before 5:30. They started trying to put her down at 7:00, but she fights it for hours. That's the reason for her late bedtime.

If the son has a thing that keeps them out until late, one parent will stay home with the girls. The only exception was a football banquet last semester, but that was well before the sleep issues really started.

[SnowGirl]

It sounds like the kid is waking up at night so they can get attention from the parents that they may not be getting during the day. They need to spend time with their kids. Active time in the evening where they can focus on their kids and wear them out. Then they need a strong routine, every night, before going to bed. Waking up at 5 am is so early for anyone, so they need to be in bed by 8 or 9 at the latest. Of course, you can tell them as much advice as you want, but they actually have to follow through with it to work and in most cases, they don't.

I agree with everything you said. I will mention it to them today (if they're receptive to sitting down and discussing it - which I do believe they will be).

She CAN sleep in until 7:00 (they don't get here until 7:40, and they live on the same street as I do). The problem is mom and dad have to get up at 5:00, so she wants to get up with them.

[SnowGirl]

I said I wouldn't tell them to, but think it. OP said they the kids are using the two bedrooms, where are the parents sleeping in a two bedroom place? It sounds like from the post things may be chaotic at night at home, if they are I can't imagine anyone sleeping well.

Sorry for the confusion:

Their home is two bedroom (with an unfinished basement they had planned on finishing before they got laid off last year). The parents and the two little girls sleep in the master suite, and the teenager sleeps in the other room. As far as I know, they don't have any other closed off rooms, just a kitchen, living room, and dining room. I haven't seen their place...just guessing. I live in the same neighborhood and it was built by one developer, so I have a decent idea of their layout

[SnowGirl]

I would offer to put little one's down for a nap immediately after drop-off to help with the falling asleep during morning snack and potty time.

Being educators far beyond my pay grade, they would understand typical child development exponentially beyond my grasp.

I would recognize their requests as temporary guilt discussions and let them know that this stage won't last forever. Their hard work is an amazing accomplishment and everything will look much brighter upon summer. That I had their back. lovethis

** Not that I just went through this with a client last month or anything... :::::: Spoiler alert: The entire drama-mentary self resolved upon the parents graduation and subsequent landing of "the dream job".

Thank you for the encouragement to stay positive and on their team. I really do love this family and believe in them...I think they really need a wake up call (or a go to sleep call, really)

[SnowGirl]

I'm sorry everyone...I'm new to this forum and just discovered the multi-quote feature in another thread I'm participating in. I will definitely NOT post a billion responses to everyone in separate posts from now on!::

[SnowGirl]

Conversation with DCPs

So, mom and dad were brainstorming on the way to my house what could be affecting their daughter's sleep so much.

They came to the conclusion that they're not doing enough as parents to stimulate her, and she needs more activities. I hinted that, yes, she really wants to spend a lot of time with her parents and that more activities with them will certainly go a long way.

What they're actually thinking is that she probably needs to be in a more preschool/academic program with many children so she can socialize more (here she only socializes with baby sister, my 2 year old daughter, and another 5 year old DCG). They want to load her up on academics and activities and they think that will help her sleep at night.

*sigh* I feel like, at this point, I just have to let them try what they think will work for them. I wish they'd speak to an expert and get the real answers (that they simply need to do what they must to give their daughter routine and teach her to sleep properly). I personally don't feel like MORE stimulation and MORE activities will do this girl any favors until she's getting proper sleep...but I just don't want to put myself out there that much.

They said that if they send her to preschool, they'd still want to keep DCG baby with me. Fine by me...I'm not the type of daycare that focuses on rigorous academics, but rather social skills and kindness. I don't intend to change my program now...

At this point I feel like more of a mom who has a differing opinion on parenting styles from this family. Not my business!

[MunchkinWrangler]

So, mom and dad were brainstorming on the way to my house what could be affecting their daughter's sleep so much.

They came to the conclusion that they're not doing enough as parents to stimulate her, and she needs more activities. I hinted that, yes, she really wants to spend a lot of time with her parents and that more activities with them will certainly go a long way.

What they're actually thinking is that she probably needs to be in a more preschool/academic program with many children so she can socialize more (here she only socializes with baby sister, my 2 year old daughter, and another 5 year old DCG). They want to load her up on academics and activities and they think that will help her sleep at night.

*sigh* I feel like, at this point, I just have to let them try what they think will work for them. I wish they'd speak to an expert and get the real answers (that they simply need to do what they must to give their daughter routine and teach her to sleep properly). I personally don't feel like MORE stimulation and MORE activities will do this girl any favors until she's getting proper sleep...but I just don't want to put myself out there that much.

They said that if they send her to preschool, they'd still want to keep DCG baby with me. Fine by me...I'm not the type of daycare that focuses on rigorous academics, but rather social skills and kindness. I don't intend to change my program now...

At this point I feel like more of a mom who has a differing opinion on parenting styles from this family. Not my business!

That must be tough to have her pulled from you daycare. I personally believe that the reason DCG is like this is classic sleep deprivation. I'm a believer in good sleep habits lead to more sleep at bedtime. She is showing the classic signs of being overtired. She is at the age of fighting sleep but she is clearly exhausted and that's an uncomfortable feeling for everyone. Sounds like they're coming to the conclusion of wearing her out even more, which in turn she might sleep but could possibly leave to some behavior issues. I wish them the best in their decision. But a 2 year old doesn't need academics yet.

[mommyneedsadayoff]

So, mom and dad were brainstorming on the way to my house what could be affecting their daughter's sleep so much.

They came to the conclusion that they're not doing enough as parents to stimulate her, and she needs more activities. I hinted that, yes, she really wants to spend a lot of time with her parents and that more activities with them will certainly go a long way.

What they're actually thinking is that she probably needs to be in a more preschool/academic program with many children so she can socialize more (here she only socializes with baby sister, my 2 year old daughter, and another 5 year old DCG). They want to load her up on academics and activities and they think that will help her sleep at night.

*sigh* I feel like, at this point, I just have to let them try what they think will work for them. I wish they'd speak to an expert and get the real answers (that they simply need to do what they must to give their daughter routine and teach her to sleep properly). I personally don't feel like MORE stimulation and MORE activities will do this girl any favors until she's getting proper sleep...but I just don't want to put myself out there that much.

They said that if they send her to preschool, they'd still want to keep DCG baby with me. Fine by me...I'm not the type of daycare that focuses on rigorous academics, but rather social skills and kindness. I don't intend to change my program now...

At this point I feel like more of a mom who has a differing opinion on parenting styles from this family. Not my business!

Aww that stinks Changing her to a whole new place will probably just lead to bigger issues and more vulnerability, which in turn, will lead to her waking up more in my opinion. They say they need to spend more time stimulating her, but what they mean is, they will move her and pay someone ELSE to stimulate her and if she can barely stay awake at your house, I imagine she is going to have an even tougher time at a busy center environment. They are pulling a classic parenting move. Rather than do the work themselves, they are passing the buck and plannign to just work dcg into the point of pure exhaustion, which will definitely end up not working. And the sad thing is, dcg will probably act up through bad behavior and then get punished or disciplined, when the reason for the bad behavior is that her parents are not setting her up for success. It's not her fault, but they will make it her fault Sort of like taking your starving child out to do a bunch of errands and expecting them to be a perfect little angel. Not much you can do about it, so it is best to let them figure it out the hard way.

[SnowGirl]

if she can barely stay awake at your house, I imagine she is going to have an even tougher time at a busy center environment.

I'm worried about this, too. For her sake.

Sounds like they're coming to the conclusion of wearing her out even more, which in turn she might sleep but could possibly leave to some behavior issues. I wish them the best in their decision. But a 2 year old doesn't need academics yet.

I'm afraid this is what they're after, as well. Even if they did find a stellar preschool program, she will derive no benefit if she's receiving 5-8 hours of interrupted sleep in a 24 hour period. Adults can hardly handle being productive on so little. I'm sitting down with DCPs tomorrow morning to go over a sleep plan, and hope that improving her sleep (if they stick to it) will set her up for success whatever they decide to do with daytime care.

My maternity leave is in April and I'll take four weeks off. Right now, their plan is to find a preschool program for her and trial it during that time. If they love the program and it improves her behavior, they will keep her in it and bring DCBaby back to me. If it fails and the preschool program doesn't improve anything/makes it worse, both girls will come back to me. I'm not saying I HOPE she fails...but I can guarantee that if they don't work with me to fix her sleep now, they will be disappointed in this plan of action. For her sake, I hope we can come together and teach her healthy sleep patterns. If I lose her to preschool, I won't mourn too much. I'll have a newborn, my daughter, and their baby...I don't need too much more of a workload at this time

[Ariana]

So, mom and dad were brainstorming on the way to my house what could be affecting their daughter's sleep so much.

They came to the conclusion that they're not doing enough as parents to stimulate her, and she needs more activities. I hinted that, yes, she really wants to spend a lot of time with her parents and that more activities with them will certainly go a long way.

What they're actually thinking is that she probably needs to be in a more preschool/academic program with many children so she can socialize more (here she only socializes with baby sister, my 2 year old daughter, and another 5 year old DCG). They want to load her up on academics and activities and they think that will help her sleep at night.

*sigh* I feel like, at this point, I just have to let them try what they think will work for them. I wish they'd speak to an expert and get the real answers (that they simply need to do what they must to give their daughter routine and teach her to sleep properly). I personally don't feel like MORE stimulation and MORE activities will do this girl any favors until she's getting proper sleep...but I just don't want to put myself out there that much.

They said that if they send her to preschool, they'd still want to keep DCG baby with me. Fine by me...I'm not the type of daycare that focuses on rigorous academics, but rather social skills and kindness. I don't intend to change my program now...

At this point I feel like more of a mom who has a differing opinion on parenting styles from this family. Not my business!

It's because THIS is so much easier FOR THEM than having to sleep train. Lets blame it on anything but the way we parent because I can't possibly be parenting wrong I am working on my PhD for crying out loud. I am brilliant! I know I am coming across as judgmental but parents who have tons of kids while pursuing higher education and their children are having all sorts of problems with sleep are not good parents. They are self involved parents. Just prepare yourself for lots of pushback on your sleep plan.

[SnowGirl]

It's because THIS is so much easier FOR THEM than having to sleep train. Lets blame it on anything but the way we parent because I can't possibly be parenting wrong I am working on my PhD for crying out loud. I am brilliant! I know I am coming across as judgmental but parents who have tons of kids while pursuing higher education and their children are having all sorts of problems with sleep are not good parents. They are self involved parents. Just prepare yourself for lots of pushback on your sleep plan.

I met with them this morning before they left for work. We sat down and discussed the daycare schedule and how they should follow it at home on the weekends. DCM was completely on board, DCD was like 75%. I don't know if he was tired or what, but he seemed less than his usual friendly self.

Despite the research they read and the expert opinions in books and on the NSF website, they're convinced that her deficiency is in activities and not consistency. I listened to their explanation and nodded, but was firm in my stance that we must be consistent with bedtime EVERY DAY, and expectations as to what is allowed (no getting up at 2:00 am and doing puzzles!! This actually happened last week at DCG's request...DCD got up with her at 2 in the morning to let her do puzzles?!). DCM was very firm that she wanted to work with the schedule, and I hope DCD is on board too.

DCD seemed concerned that I would call them again to get DCG if she refused her nap again. I assured them that this was a health concern (major sleep deprivation) that needed to be addressed, and not a pattern they should expect (refusal to nap = being sent home). But, if I am concerned for her health and safety (falling asleep during play time, on the toilet, at snack time, but refusing a nap), I will be addressing it again.

I don't want to be too strict, I certainly don't want DCG to think refusing naps = early pick up (which is why I wouldn't normally make it a habit), but I don't want DCPs to think they can skirt around this major issue by dropping of a highly dysfunctional toddler with me.

I'm remaining optimistic though...despite your warnings. Hoping I don't have to eat crow later.

[daycare]

Brings married to an Asian man, I find this common in their culture that kids don't have good bedtime routines and I find the same with families of this culture in my care.

My rule is that as soon as they become too tired to participate they go home.

I only allow napping during nap time. I don't take kids under 18 months.

If they fall asleep at the table it falls under in able to participate.

[SnowGirl]

Brings married to an Asian man, I find this common in their culture that kids don't have good bedtime routines and I find the same with families of this culture in my care.

My rule is that as soon as they become too tired to participate they go home.

I only allow napping during nap time. I don't take kids under 18 months.

If they fall asleep at the table it falls under in able to participate.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who sends home for this reason! I felt like I was being mean (I'm relatively new to the daycare business).

And that's so interesting you bring up culture...this family is from West Asia/Middle East! I hope they don't think I'm stepping on their culture..I'm just trying to look out for their child!

[MunchkinWrangler]

I met with them this morning before they left for work. We sat down and discussed the daycare schedule and how they should follow it at home on the weekends. DCM was completely on board, DCD was like 75%. I don't know if he was tired or what, but he seemed less than his usual friendly self.

Despite the research they read and the expert opinions in books and on the NSF website, they're convinced that her deficiency is in activities and not consistency. I listened to their explanation and nodded, but was firm in my stance that we must be consistent with bedtime EVERY DAY, and expectations as to what is allowed (no getting up at 2:00 am and doing puzzles!! This actually happened last week at DCG's request...DCD got up with her at 2 in the morning to let her do puzzles?!). DCM was very firm that she wanted to work with the schedule, and I hope DCD is on board too.

DCD seemed concerned that I would call them again to get DCG if she refused her nap again. I assured them that this was a health concern (major sleep deprivation) that needed to be addressed, and not a pattern they should expect (refusal to nap = being sent home). But, if I am concerned for her health and safety (falling asleep during play time, on the toilet, at snack time, but refusing a nap), I will be addressing it again.

I don't want to be too strict, I certainly don't want DCG to think refusing naps = early pick up (which is why I wouldn't normally make it a habit), but I don't want DCPs to think they can skirt around this major issue by dropping of a highly dysfunctional toddler with me.

I'm remaining optimistic though...despite your warnings. Hoping I don't have to eat crow later.

GAH! Puzzles at 2 AM?!?!? Wow!!! Because she wanted to? There's the problem among others. In my house bedtime is 8:30 PM to 7 AM that means, if my son wakes up between those hours, guess what, it's bedtime...go to bed. There is no leaving the bed. You don't have to sleep but you have to stay in bed. No cry parenting at it's best. They definitely need to sleep train but probably don't want to put the effort into it. Stick to your guns, you have her best interests at heart. happyface

[Unregistered]

I have a chart with sleep needs. I'd give that to the parents. This is extreme sleep depravation! At her age she needs about 11/12 hrs. at night and a good nap. She sounds like she is overtired and is waking up at night. Maybe wakes up to see her parents too. I'd put her back to bed too when she arrived.