Supporting Fathers

[auntymimi]

Yes I would say it's a fair statement. I use the phrase "estrogen ocean" to describe the attitude of many daycare providers/ facilities toward men/ fathers. This is "our turf" and males (staff or clients) intrude at their own peril. Often times it's probably an unconscious reinforcing of the stereotype of child rearing/ care as a "woman's job" more so than any overt hostility toward Dads/ male parental figures (that is really pretty rare I hope). As for tactics for improving or preventing I could do a couple of pages but it boils down to 3 things: Treat DCDs like equal parents and not DCM's oldest kid, be professional to all parents (even the dopey/ annoying ones), and establish clear boundaries of being neutral toward both parents, especially in divorce/ custody situations.


happyfacehappyface



Not going after you, but going to play devil's advocate here. Although each situation is different but the "we deal with the moms" line isn't true as often as it was 20-30 years ago. With my 5 families 2 are 50/50, 2 I deal with DCM more because of work schedule but see DCD any chance they get, and 1 is primarily DCM. As for Dads being more involved at daycare, I ask often "Why would they go someplace they often feel just tolerated or unwelcome?" Daycares are often 100% female so men in there receive a heightened amount of notice (centers more so than homes) even if they are supposed to be there. Frequently DCDs are handed information with the instructions "Give this to DCM" instead of " Discuss this with DCM" At the risk of making a "most men" statement, we're really good at giving people the view they project. Treat me like I don't know what I'm doing with my own kid and you will get incompetent/ annoying sitcom Dad.

As for taking "blame" none given. Regarding not seeing one parent more: unless there is a practical answer like schedule a program is not seeing the DCDs, there's probably a reason. It very well might not be you. It could be family attitudes or blowback from previous negative experiences. But that doesn't make us as an industry blameless or lacking regarding a far too prevalent attitude towards men and children.

I'm new here and have yet to figure out how to quote just one sentence in a post. "although each situation is different but the we deal with moms line isn't as true as it was 20-30 years ago". Wow! Some of you guys have been doing this a really long time! I'm only 32 years old myself, so I really have no experience with then vs. now, but I really believe it has a lot to do with the community you serve too. All of my clients are very low income and what I tend to see is mothers and grandmothers raising children. Sometimes it's by dads choice not to be involved, many times he can't because of incarceration or addiction issues.

[DaveA]

". Wow! Some of you guys have been doing this a really long time!.

Gee thanks- let me go get my walker and ensure now!:: I'm only 9 years older than you (41). I've just been around childcare as a business since I was 15.


There's no doubt demographics, clientele, and family dynamics play huge roles. Many families choose someone to take the lead in certain aspects of their child's lives. In our family I defer to my wife in healthcare issues because she's a nurse and I take point in educational/ developmental things. In my post I was trying to focus on our reactions as professionals to males wanting to be involved in their child's lives.

[Cat Herder]

I guess my policies are very similar to most everyone else's. I do have a couple things that were pointed out as being "possible" exclusionary practice. I am not clear as to where the lines should be. :confused: The training is pretty grey and I am a black and white kinda lady when it comes to my contract.

1. I require both parents for interviews.

Historically I have refused to offer separate interviews/conferences to weed out high conflict couples. Maybe that is "wrong" but I work alone, in my home and have limited ability to deal with adult issues.

After having been dragged into court and taken temporary custody of a daycare child before, I just don't want to do it anymore. That was a long 4 years with that particular family. I am tired after 12 hours a day with other peoples kids. (mostly tongue in cheek, I will ALWAYS take a respite kid, I just want to skip the adult drama.)

2. I require one parent to be responsible for payment.

After MANY years in this business I decided to banish the "he said, she said" from my money. I do this for married couples and divorced couples alike. My thinking is they picked one another, they need to work out the details; I am a bystander.

I learned that this does not support 50/50 custody arrangements. :confused: I don't offer part-time care and splitting a full-time slot is simply more adult care that I don't want to do. I guess I could work out an easyish 50/50 with MMK auto pay... but what if one doesn't pay? Per my contract, "both" would be terminated. :confused: Does not seem fair to kiddo or parents to me. It gives one parent the ability to cost the others employment simply by skipping out on the check. Risky. :dislike:


How do you guys and dolls handle this stuff???

[Blackcat31]

I guess my policies are very similar to most everyone else's. I do have a couple things that were pointed out as being "possible" exclusionary practice. I am not clear as to where the lines should be. :confused: The training is pretty grey and I am a black and white kinda lady when it comes to my contract.

1. I require both parents for interviews.

Historically I have refused to offer separate interviews/conferences to weed out high conflict couples. Maybe that is "wrong" but I work alone, in my home and have limited ability to deal with adult issues.

After having been dragged into court and taken temporary custody of a daycare child before, I just don't want to do it anymore. That was a long 4 years with that particular family. I am tired after 12 hours a day with other peoples kids. (mostly tongue in cheek, I will ALWAYS take a respite kid, I just want to skip the adult drama.)

2. I require one parent to be responsible for payment.

After MANY years in this business I decided to banish the "he said, she said" from my money. I do this for married couples and divorced couples alike. My thinking is they picked one another, they need to work out the details; I am a bystander.

I learned that this does not support 50/50 custody arrangements. :confused: I don't offer part-time care and splitting a full-time slot is simply more adult care that I don't want to do. I guess I could work out an easyish 50/50 with MMK auto pay... but what if one doesn't pay? Per my contract, "both" would be terminated. :confused: Does not seem fair to kiddo or parents to me. It gives one parent the ability to cost the others employment simply by skipping out on the check. Risky. :dislike:


How do you guys and dolls handle this stuff???

Ah, the classic struggle between doing things in a way that actually works in real life and doing things according to the ideal or thought process on paper that inclusion is the only way to go.

Now hear this:

Diversity, acceptance, tolerance and understanding for all!!.





.......Except the person that actually manages/runs the show.




Sorry. I too, am feeling a little disheartened between doing (actually doing) and meeting requirements that please everyone. :confused:

[DaveA]

1. I require both parents for interviews.

Unless one parent has sole custody I request I meet both parents. I don't require a joint interview. I make it very clear that my program is a neutral spot for the child and any attempt to put me in the "middle" or play me off the other will result in both parents not liking me really quick.

2. I require one parent to be responsible for payment.

I'm trying to remember if I've ever had a situation where I let each parent pay "their" portion to me. I don't believe I've had it happen. I would strongly encourage them to have one parent be the single payer. Then again, I really don't have the payment issues with DCPs others have talked about. Maybe it's because they know I make knives for a hobby.

How do you guys and dolls handle this stuff???

my answers in blue

[Cat Herder]

Ah, the classic struggle between doing things in a way that actually works in real life and doing things according to the ideal or thought process on paper that inclusion is the only way to go.

I too, am feeling a little disheartened between doing (actually doing) and meeting requirements that please everyone. :confused:

:hug: I hear you.

I love the overall goal, kids need involved Dad's every bit as much as they need Mom's. I appreciate the difficulty Dad's face in the court systems.

I just don't know how to accommodate this in a practical sense that is fair to all parties.

I don't want to buy more problems. I have plenty of my own. :::: I was raised believing life was not fair, ya know. I embraced the **** and made a contract that works for my family.

I love this discussion, though. happyfacehappyface

[Cat Herder]

my answers in blue

I really think the single payer minimizes drama (for us). It occured to me that I could offer alternating years since I update records each year in January when I give out the W-10'S.

Maybe that would work?

Wait, don't most orders say something about who get's to claim the child? Would not that parent need to make payment to be able to use the W-10? Ugh... taxes, billing, court orders... It really is a lot, right?

[Play Care]

I can definitely see how daycares may contribute to an attitude towards men, but ime, that all starts at home. It starts with mom doing most of the daycare stuff and making comments about daddy not knowing how to handle dck or get her ready for dc and so on... We pick up on that and may pull out kid gloves when dealing with dad. I don't think it is meant to be hurtful or treat them like they have no clue. Like when grandma picks up, dcm will ask me if I can help install the carseat and write out dcgs schedule or whatever, because grandma is not used to picking up and caring for dck. Of course, grandma raised dcm, so I am sure she could figure it out , but my point is that whenever dcd has been treated like he doesn't know what he is doing, it started at home with his wife. I think, as providers, we can just do our best to treat them all with respect, but honestly, I am in this for the money and so I am going to make more of an effort to keep the parent I see the most and who seems to be the one in "charge" of daycare, the happiest. It sounds harsh, but if dad is upset about not being included in all the dc stuff, he needs to speak to his wife and be apart of the issue, not point fingers at everyone else. When my kids were born, my husband deferred to me on how to do stuff, but he wanted to learn and be apart of it all, so he made the effort to learn. He took them to the doc and still does. He makes them breakfast every weekend so I can sleep in and gets them dressed and ready for church. I would hate to see him treated as less than, just because he is a male, but so far he has not had that experience. If anything, he gets big smiles and looks of admiration for taking care of his own kids. I never get that pat on the back for doing what I am supposed to be doing. I get dirty looks if my kid cries and whenever a kid is out of control, most people say "where is his mother!" So, my point is that I wish it could be more equal and someday it will be, but for now, dad's probably feel they are not included or treated as incompetent, and mom's feel like they have to do it all or get blamed for every little thing their kid does. And as of right now, the umber of kids living with single moms is way bigger than those with single dads, so as that number begins to even out (hopefully with the justice system helping dads get custody when they want to be involved), I think we will start to encounter more dads and hopefully we can break the stereotype one family at a time.

I think I had too much coffee, because i did not plan to write such a long post!

YES!

This is kind of where I mean to go this morning. This is so much more than how day care providers treat dad's. It is part of a much larger gender issue.

[Cat Herder]

This is so much more than how day care providers treat dad's. It is part of a much larger gender issue.

I agree. I just started reading this study... So far, it is interesting. "Married couples spend more time at work", etc.

http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/03/14/modern-parenthood-roles-of-moms-and-dads-converge-as-they-balance-work-and-family/5/

[Play Care]

Not going after you, but going to play devil's advocate here. Although each situation is different but the "we deal with the moms" line isn't true as often as it was 20-30 years ago. With my 5 families 2 are 50/50, 2 I deal with DCM more because of work schedule but see DCD any chance they get, and 1 is primarily DCM. As for Dads being more involved at daycare, I ask often "Why would they go someplace they often feel just tolerated or unwelcome?" Daycares are often 100% female so men in there receive a heightened amount of notice (centers more so than homes) even if they are supposed to be there. Frequently DCDs are handed information with the instructions "Give this to DCM" instead of " Discuss this with DCM" At the risk of making a "most men" statement, we're really good at giving people the view they project. Treat me like I don't know what I'm doing with my own kid and you will get incompetent/ annoying sitcom Dad.

As for taking "blame" none given. Regarding not seeing one parent more: unless there is a practical answer like schedule a program is not seeing the DCDs, there's probably a reason. It very well might not be you. It could be family attitudes or blowback from previous negative experiences. But that doesn't make us as an industry blameless or lacking regarding a far too prevalent attitude towards men and children.

I was hoping you would chime in

See, maybe it's where I live, but in general child care duty (drop offs, pick ups, staying home with sick kids, etc) falls to mom. Of my current families only one has dad do most of the drop offs and pick ups because his current position is more flexible. And this is in my college educated, middle class circle (i.e. We're supposed to be more "forward thinking" than previous generations) my reality is that I do see mom way more than dad.
And I think this goes back to gender issues. Like it or not it's still moms "job" to raise the kids. When I have a dcd drop off who usually doesn't, inevitably he's apologizing for it:confused:and then when mom picks up, she's apologizing for it:confused: if the kids are not dressed appropriately or the bag is missing items, dad is always the one getting the blame:confused: (mommyneedsadayoff's post covers this well)
Mom's career - despite the college education and the better pay that usually comes with that, it's still viewed as expendable in many families (even when moms salary is keeping the roof over head and food on the table) this is usually why moms are doing day care drop offs and pick ups and staying home when kids are sick or school is closed. In my circle anyway, Dads could change schedules but often don't lest it hurt their careers. The reality here is that most men are content to let their wives run interference with all things child care related if it means they can get in to work on time and stop at the gym on the way home. And while this is slooooooooowly changing (and I know your family is kind of at the forefront of that ) it's not anywhere near equal.

I've posted about my former client, the single dcd. Many times throughout our dealings I got the feeling he was acting more clueless than he actually was in order to get me to step in and take care of things. Before this the few times I had a dad on day care duty it had gone well so I had no expectation that this would be anything else (i.e. I didn't start off treating him like a moron :: )

In general I feel that if men want to be seen as equal then they need to take their fingers out and co-parent more (On a side note I wonder if they did this before it came to divorce and their hands were forced, would they still be married?) The reality is when a single mom drops off kids at DC and the bag isn't packed correctly or the kids aren't dressed appropriately, the judgment is that she's a terrible mom. When single dcd does the same thing, he needs "support"

[daycarediva]

I gravitate toward the more involved parent for my program. I "bond" with the one I see most. I don't think I always side w one or the other. I do t even think it's biased either way. I seem to be closer to the one I see most.
I'm not educated on Tactics. I didn't even know it was a thing.

BOTH parents are required for the interview AND to sign the contract UNLESS they have documentation to prove the other parent is out of the picture completely. I even used skype once for a dcd who lives out of state. Faxed paperwork to him, he signed and mailed it back. It also gives me a good idea of what the relationship looks like- I have had some great coparents and some AWFUL ones.

I ask on interview who MY primary contact should be. That person goes first on paperwork and is my main 'point of contact' about everything. I request that it be the parent I see the most. It's been about 70/30 favoring Mom.

I have had requests to cut Dad out of the loop- don't tell him anything. Or to cut the pickup people from Dad's side of the family out- contracts have to be updated? both parties must sign. I was even TOLD by a Mom once that a dck wasn't ALLOWED to bring art home on Dad's days. Um, NO! I have had very little drama from Dads. In my experience, it is most often that Moms try to pull me in and get me to side with them.

They pick the person responsible for paying- this includes late fees, regardless of who picks up.

I don't automatically take mom's side. I have had amazing dads and awful moms. The only times I've called cps were 'on' a mom, and a mom's boyfriend.

[DaveA]

I was hoping you would chime in

See, maybe it's where I live, but in general child care duty (drop offs, pick ups, staying home with sick kids, etc) falls to mom. Of my current families only one has dad do most of the drop offs and pick ups because his current position is more flexible. And this is in my college educated, middle class circle (i.e. We're supposed to be more "forward thinking" than previous generations) my reality is that I do see mom way more than dad.
And I think this goes back to gender issues. Like it or not it's still moms "job" to raise the kids. When I have a dcd drop off who usually doesn't, inevitably he's apologizing for it:confused:and then when mom picks up, she's apologizing for it:confused: if the kids are not dressed appropriately or the bag is missing items, dad is always the one getting the blame:confused: (mommyneedsadayoff's post covers this well)
Mom's career - despite the college education and the better pay that usually comes with that, it's still viewed as expendable in many families (even when moms salary is keeping the roof over head and food on the table) this is usually why moms are doing day care drop offs and pick ups and staying home when kids are sick or school is closed. In my circle anyway, Dads could change schedules but often don't lest it hurt their careers. The reality here is that most men are content to let their wives run interference with all things child care related if it means they can get in to work on time and stop at the gym on the way home. And while this is slooooooooowly changing (and I know your family is kind of at the forefront of that ) it's not anywhere near equal.

I've posted about my former client, the single dcd. Many times throughout our dealings I got the feeling he was acting more clueless than he actually was in order to get me to step in and take care of things. Before this the few times I had a dad on day care duty it had gone well so I had no expectation that this would be anything else (i.e. I didn't start off treating him like a moron :: )

In general I feel that if men want to be seen as equal then they need to take their fingers out and co-parent more (On a side note I wonder if they did this before it came to divorce and their hands were forced, would they still be married?) The reality is when a single mom drops off kids at DC and the bag isn't packed correctly or the kids aren't dressed appropriately, the judgment is that she's a terrible mom. When single dcd does the same thing, he needs "support"

Glad to oblige.

A couple of things skew my demographics. The fact that the big employers in our area include healthcare & public sector which are large enough to have wide swings in schedule and policies supporting both parents taking off helps. Also, a DCM that thinks it's her job to take care of the children and DCD isn't up to the task probably isn't going to consider me as a provider.

I know several dads in and out of childcare settings who biggest gripe is wife's shutting them out of taking more of a role with their own children. The usual reason is it's "her" child and he won't do it "right". This is the problem with making generalizations or even policies when the big picture is made up of so many diverse individual ones. For every anecdote or point there is an equally valid and correct counterpoint. Still a fun discussion.

[KidGrind]

I had an interesting conversation with a fathers rights advocate.

During that exchange it was stated that a common viewpoint of fathers is that childcare providers almost always side with mothers to limit their involvement. He added the belief that mothers were almost always assumed to be good parents while fathers had to "prove it" to us first.

Do you think that is a fair statement? Do you think as a community we do this? If so what can be done to change it?

How do you support fathers relationships with their kids in your business? How educated are you on parental alienation tactics?

As a provider I am on the child’s side. I never engage in limiting a father’s right to see, visit or pick up his child. I don’t have that right legally or morally without legal documents from a judge.

I live by there is two sides to every story. Yet, there is one truth. It’s not my call to decide who’s the better parent. DCPs often put on the mask of who they think I want them to be.

I notice even on this site that some providers involve themselves in situations none of their business. I am okay with it because how they choose to do business is frankly none of mine. So yes, I think it can be a fair statement to those it applies to. I talk positively about both parents, that is how I support fathers. I also don’t dote over single dads and try to give them a medal for doing what they’re suppose to be doing. I have no academic education in regards to parent alienation. Yet, I’ve seen it in action with one of my former DCDs. In front of his child he said, “Don’t pick that of the ground! It’ll make you dirty like your mother. She’s so nasty!”

I reminded him several times not to talk about the mother in my home and in front of his child in that manner.

[Ariana]

How the heck do caregivers limit fathers involvement? How can one even do that if one wanted to? Sometimes these "fathers rights" advocates are trying to pit one gender against the other. Courts do not side with mothers for no reason at least here in Canada and how can a DCP limit a fathers input? I have seen my friend go through a divorce and because she is the main breadwinner she is having to pay spousal support etc. The dad also gets to see his children 50% even though he is not paying any child support. The court will not limit contact with the father because of financial issues (which is the way it should be) so courts definitely do not just blindly side with the mother. I could go on!

I personally have always communicated with both parents. With my last DCF divorce I had to name a "primary parent" just for multiplicities sake for payments but cc'd both on emails and gave each a tax receipt split in half. It was up to them what they did with it. Dad picked up when it was his weekend/days etc. no big deal. Before the divorce I never saw the dad. He became much more involved after the divorce oddly enough. The families I see now, both parents pick up and drop off equally. In my experience dads seem much more truthful and don't have that pressure to be "perfect" like moms do so they seem much more relaxed and confident in their parenting.

[e.j.]

Sometimes these "fathers rights" advocates are trying to pit one gender against the other. Courts do not side with mothers for no reason at least here in Canada and how can a DCP limit a fathers input? I have seen my friend go through a divorce and because she is the main breadwinner she is having to pay spousal support etc. The dad also gets to see his children 50% even though he is not paying any child support. The court will not limit contact with the father because of financial issues (which is the way it should be) so courts definitely do not just blindly side with the mother. I could go on!

I've spoken with a few father's rights advocates and I agree that some do try to pit one gender against the other. I think most father's rights advocates are legitimately concerned with righting the wrongs they've experienced at the hands of our court system. Unfortunately, some come across as fanatics who, I think, do more to hurt their cause than help it. It's too bad because I think there are some real problems with the way that at least some fathers are treated in our court system.

Things may be different in Canada vs. the US; I don't know. I'm not even sure if all courts in the US are the same. Maybe some would rule differently than the courts my brother had to deal with. While the court never overtly limited my brother's contact with his son, it failed to enforce the divorce/child custody agreements any time his ex-wife chose to disregard them - which was often. I started to type up examples of the parental alienation tactics she used as well as the abusive, neglectful, illegal things she has done over the years but decided not to go there. I could go on for days about it but this thread isn't about that. Trust me, though, when I say the judge who ruled that she should have custody of my nephew over my brother made a very serious mistake that has affected my nephew and will continue to affect him for the rest of his life.

My brother's ex was often caught lying during court appearances, was called on it by the various presiding judges and yet each time my brother took her to court to try to have the custody agreement enforced, she would win. Appallingly, one of the judges even scolded him, telling him it was "time to get over her"!! I wish that judge could have known just how "over her" he was by that point!

With each court appearance, we would think that this time, surely the court would see through her baloney and rule in favor of my brother. It never happened despite the fact that my brother is an upstanding citizen, never did a dishonest thing in his life and together with his current wife, could have offered his son a stable, loving home. I know divorce court judges deal with "he said/she said" claims all the time. They have a tough job having to make decisions about what is best for the children involved but in the case of my brother and his son, it really did seem as though the judges involved really did just blindly side with his ex simply because she was the mother. To be honest, I often wondered if these judges were insane, being bribed or afraid they would end up on the wrong side of mother's rights groups if they made the decision to remove custody from her in favor of my brother. I honestly can't figure out why they ruled the way they did. It makes no sense to any of us who knew both parties. I used to believe in the justice and fairness of our court system. Based on my brother's experiences, I have to think that father's rights advocates still have a big job in front of them.