Reported Them

[Thriftylady]

Regular poster - signed out.
I understand reporting illegal providers for safety reasons.

But I do want to put out there - I THOUGHT I was running legally unlicensed when I was unlicensed for 3 years because I didn't understand the rules. I read the licensing rules and I followed them. I didn't have a yard, so I couldn't get licensed (I moved so I could get licensed last year). I didn't realize that the ratios for unlicensed were different than unlicensed. So I never had more than 8 kids, because that was the amount a licensed provider could care for. Now, I know its 4 kids who aren't related in addition to your own for someone legally not licensed in my state. I was mortified when I found out I had been breaking the law for 2 years. If I would have been reported, I would have been so confused and embarrassed. Once I realized I had misinterpreted the rules, I scaled back to the legal unlicensed ratio until I was able to get licensed. The children in my care were fed organic healthy meals, went to the park everyday (less than a block away) and learned to write their name etc. It was a quality program though unintentionally illegal. I know breaking the law on accident doesn't make it OK, but when I see ads on Craigslist or FB for casual childcare provider, I assume they have no idea about the licensing laws. I will sometimes email them the link to the health departments childcare website as a friendly FYI. What they do with the info is up to them.

I just wanted to put out there my experience.

An accident is one thing, but I have personally known some who were illegal and knew it. I have a huge issue with that. Accidents happen, there are misunderstandings and it sounds to me like you were still a great provider. Totally different than some I have seen with more kids than are allowed with a license and such. I am not saying every one who isn't licensed is bad. Like I said already I am legally unlicensed and run a good program and follow the rules I know of that apply to me. I haven't found an actual rule book for Ohio, it seems you have to apply for a license to see one or something. So I follow the ratio rules and the rules I had as licensed in Kansas. So perhaps I am unknowingly breaking one or two. But that is so different than doing it on purpose.

[Play Care]

An accident is one thing, but I have personally known some who were illegal and knew it. I have a huge issue with that. Accidents happen, there are misunderstandings and it sounds to me like you were still a great provider. Totally different than some I have seen with more kids than are allowed with a license and such. I am not saying every one who isn't licensed is bad. Like I said already I am legally unlicensed and run a good program and follow the rules I know of that apply to me. I haven't found an actual rule book for Ohio, it seems you have to apply for a license to see one or something. So I follow the ratio rules and the rules I had as licensed in Kansas. So perhaps I am unknowingly breaking one or two. But that is so different than doing it on purpose.

I've seen some of the ads on Facebook "Loving mom looking to babysit in her home" etc. And when someone asks about how many kids she's watching and if they are licensed and posts the link to the regulations, they are roundly slammed.
I think most people know but pretend they don't. Or they get defensive about it.
I've said before that if I didn't need to be licensed I would not be. I don't make the rules and I have tried to get families on board when they come up with even more proposed regulations to speak out against some of them. No one seems to care until it affects them and by then it's already a reg/law and too late.

[mommyneedsadayoff]

It is interesting to read this thread and similar threads about this issue. Some main points seem to be that the laws concerning ratios/licensing are incredibly different state to state so that makes the laws themselves seem irrelevant and superficial. Why am I considered more capable of taking care of 5 kids with no license and someone in another state cannot even watch one child? It makes no sense to me. And the other points seem to be that there are not enough people to regulate all the laws and regulations ayway, so doesn't that also make the laws kind of worthless? I luckily live in a state that allows you to watch kids without a license, but if I did not, I probably wouldn't do childcare anymore. I am just not into the whole state being in my business and having to license just to have a single kid seems overborad to me and not worth it.

The other common theme seems to be "follow the law and if you don't, I will report you." I don't follow that mantra, because I don't think all laws are fair, just, or even necessary, so I mind my own business. If I personally witnessed abuse, I would obviously report, but I wouldn't report someone for not being licensed, whether legal or not. I have no idea what type of care they are providing and if parents are willingly taking their children there, then it is up to the parents to keep up with the quality of care, not me. I feel like some providers just report out of spite. They feel they had to jump threw the hoops, so everyone else should too. Life is about choices. You may have chosen the "right" way according to the state, but it doesn't mean that person across the street who did it differently is not a good person just making a living. I think different types of childcare provide different experiences and it is up to the family to choose what type of service they prefer. This is one of the first situtaions where parents should be held responsible for where they choose to send their kid. It shouldn't be up to the neighbors or random strangers to report a daycare. If you feel like it is necessary, then by all means, but for me, I do not willingly put myself in the middle of the lives of numerous other people and families because of laws that really don't seem to affect quality of care at all, imo. Just my two cents

[Josiegirl]

PP, you might feel entirely different if you were one of those jumping through hoops. And trust me, the hoops seem to get harder and harder to jump through every year. Then you've got a neighbor doing child care and they might be wonderfully qualified, except they feel they're above the law. And it is the law. Not only that, they're undercutting you, leaving you with less clients.
I entirely agree the state jumps in with too many ridiculous rules and it is definitely up to the parents to judge their own provider. But being a legal provider(I wasn't always but that was way way back) who devotes more hours than should be needed for any job that pays these rates...yeh, it kinda irks me when there are SAHM on FB looking to care for kids at rock bottom prices. I'm in an entirely different mindset about the whole thing than I used to be.
If I'm being spiteful, I'm sorry. I don't think of it that way. I feel what's fair(and legal) is fair.
I also agree that with such a difference nationwide as far as child care regulations, it does seem silly. I WISH we didn't have to be licensed to care for kids.

[mommyneedsadayoff]

PP, you might feel entirely different if you were one of those jumping through hoops. And trust me, the hoops seem to get harder and harder to jump through every year. Then you've got a neighbor doing child care and they might be wonderfully qualified, except they feel they're above the law. And it is the law. Not only that, they're undercutting you, leaving you with less clients.
I entirely agree the state jumps in with too many ridiculous rules and it is definitely up to the parents to judge their own provider. But being a legal provider(I wasn't always but that was way way back) who devotes more hours than should be needed for any job that pays these rates...yeh, it kinda irks me when there are SAHM on FB looking to care for kids at rock bottom prices. I'm in an entirely different mindset about the whole thing than I used to be.
If I'm being spiteful, I'm sorry. I don't think of it that way. I feel what's fair(and legal) is fair.
I also agree that with such a difference nationwide as far as child care regulations, it does seem silly. I WISH we didn't have to be licensed to care for kids.

I can watch 5 kids with no license in my state, so I don't jump through hoops because I CHOOSE not to. I don't care to watch more than 5 kids, so it is not really an issue for me. I have done childcare for 17 years and when I had my kids, I chose to do in home daycare so I could be home with my kids. I don't charge rock bottom, but my neighbor across the street does and she is licensed. Like I said earlier, I don't think the laws set the standard for quality childcare. I think they attempt to control childcare under the guise of weeding out the bad ones, but in the end, it is the "good" ones who end up going through all the hassles and regs just to do a job they are already amazing at. At least you can admit it may be spiteful to report the people who are not following all the laws, but many say they do it for the welfare of the children and I kind of call BS on that. It reminds me of any other businesses. "The welfare of the children/customer" is really just code for weeding out the competition. Again, jmo and I think it is great if you follow the laws and regs. It protects you int he end from issues, but I also understand why some choose not to do it.

[Thriftylady]

I see what you are saying in some ways. I also am not licensed like you right now, I don't have to be. I have known several illegal providers and have not turned them in, because there was no abuse. I didn't feel like they were doing all they could, such as feeding food I call crap, but that is up to parents to ask about and choose by either using the provider or not, and I am sure some licensed ones serve the same things. I would report if I saw abuse or something that went against safety, because some parents sadly will choose low cost over good, safe care. I see plenty of it around here, but I don't report because it isn't a safety issue.

[Unregistered]

That's the real story. We don't have to be licensed either, and it's funny because I've had friends who had a disgruntled parent try and get them in trouble not knowing you don't have to be licensed.

Around here many network or give the parents referrals if their spot is filled. Kind of a pay it forward, and of course you have the few that have the other mentality with the competition thing.

[Blackcat31]

It is interesting to read this thread and similar threads about this issue. Some main points seem to be that the laws concerning ratios/licensing are incredibly different state to state so that makes the laws themselves seem irrelevant and superficial. Why am I considered more capable of taking care of 5 kids with no license and someone in another state cannot even watch one child? It makes no sense to me. And the other points seem to be that there are not enough people to regulate all the laws and regulations ayway, so doesn't that also make the laws kind of worthless? I luckily live in a state that allows you to watch kids without a license, but if I did not, I probably wouldn't do childcare anymore. I am just not into the whole state being in my business and having to license just to have a single kid seems overborad to me and not worth it.

The other common theme seems to be "follow the law and if you don't, I will report you." I don't follow that mantra, because I don't think all laws are fair, just, or even necessary, so I mind my own business. If I personally witnessed abuse, I would obviously report, but I wouldn't report someone for not being licensed, whether legal or not. I have no idea what type of care they are providing and if parents are willingly taking their children there, then it is up to the parents to keep up with the quality of care, not me. I feel like some providers just report out of spite. They feel they had to jump threw the hoops, so everyone else should too. Life is about choices. You may have chosen the "right" way according to the state, but it doesn't mean that person across the street who did it differently is not a good person just making a living. I think different types of childcare provide different experiences and it is up to the family to choose what type of service they prefer. This is one of the first situtaions where parents should be held responsible for where they choose to send their kid. It shouldn't be up to the neighbors or random strangers to report a daycare. If you feel like it is necessary, then by all means, but for me, I do not willingly put myself in the middle of the lives of numerous other people and families because of laws that really don't seem to affect quality of care at all, imo. Just my two cents

Not trying to cause a uproar but that is one of the silliest statements I think I've ever read....

So because there aren't enough people to enforce a law, the law is worthless?

Whether there are or aren't enough people to enforce a law doesn't make it worthless... it simply means that too many people feel they are above the law so they disregard it and now because so many people are in that mindset, there aren't enough people to enforce it.

It used to be people did the right thing and followed the law simply because it was the right thing to do, not just because someone was watching or enforcing it.

I think if people don't like certain laws/rules we (as Americans) are given methods and avenues to change those laws/rules rather than simply disregard them.


On another point brought up in this thread... I don't view any daycare provider as competition and am always happy to help a fellow provider out in any way I can because I do believe there is a right fit for every family and I don't care to have families enrolled that didn't specifically choose me for my program and/or myself so other providers in my area aren't competition in my eyes but if I saw someone advertising their daycare and they were illegal, I would more than likely reach out to them and offer them assistance in being licensed (you must be licensed in MN for more than one family) but if they refuse to accept my help or were blatantly disregarding the law simply because they can, I would probably report them. For NO other reason other than they are knowingly illegal. Same goes for some one I see run a stop sign or steal something in a store.

Right is right and wrong is wrong no matter the reasons or logic behind it.

I care about this profession and the generalized stereotypes and unfair beliefs many people have about it and I work hard to maintain a good program with a good reputation so I will always do what I believe is for the improvement of this field.

[Leigh]

Not trying to cause a uproar but that is one of the silliest statements I think I've ever read....

So because there aren't enough people to enforce a law, the law is worthless?

Whether there are or aren't enough people to enforce a law doesn't make it worthless... it simply means that too many people feel they are above the law so they disregard it and now because so many people are in that mindset, there aren't enough people to enforce it.

It used to be people did the right thing and followed the law simply because it was the right thing to do, not just because someone was watching or enforcing it.

I think if people don't like certain laws/rules we (as Americans) are given methods and avenues to change those laws/rules rather than simply disregard them.


On another point brought up in this thread... I don't view any daycare provider as competition and am always happy to help a fellow provider out in any way I can because I do believe there is a right fit for every family and I don't care to have families enrolled that didn't specifically choose me for my program and/or myself so other providers in my area aren't competition in my eyes but if I saw someone advertising their daycare and they were illegal, I would more than likely reach out to them and offer them assistance in being licensed (you must be licensed in MN for more than one family) but if they refuse to accept my help or were blatantly disregarding the law simply because they can, I would probably report them. For NO other reason other than they are knowingly illegal. Same goes for some one I see run a stop sign or steal something in a store.

Right is right and wrong is wrong no matter the reasons or logic behind it.

I care about this profession and the generalized stereotypes and unfair beliefs many people have about it and I work hard to maintain a good program with a good reputation so I will always do what I believe is for the improvement of this field.

I agree. I don't have a problem with unlicensed, and I nearly ALWAYS include some unlicensed providers in referrals when I am turning someone away. Some of my community's BEST providers are unlicensed. There's a HUGE difference between unlicensed and illegal. BC said it: Right is right and wrong is wrong. That's really all that needs to be said. The law needs to be followed.

[mommyneedsadayoff]

Not trying to cause a uproar but that is one of the silliest statements I think I've ever read....

So because there aren't enough people to enforce a law, the law is worthless?

Whether there are or aren't enough people to enforce a law doesn't make it worthless... it simply means that too many people feel they are above the law so they disregard it and now because so many people are in that mindset, there aren't enough people to enforce it.

It used to be people did the right thing and followed the law simply because it was the right thing to do, not just because someone was watching or enforcing it.

I think if people don't like certain laws/rules we (as Americans) are given methods and avenues to change those laws/rules rather than simply disregard them.


On another point brought up in this thread... I don't view any daycare provider as competition and am always happy to help a fellow provider out in any way I can because I do believe there is a right fit for every family and I don't care to have families enrolled that didn't specifically choose me for my program and/or myself so other providers in my area aren't competition in my eyes but if I saw someone advertising their daycare and they were illegal, I would more than likely reach out to them and offer them assistance in being licensed (you must be licensed in MN for more than one family) but if they refuse to accept my help or were blatantly disregarding the law simply because they can, I would probably report them. For NO other reason other than they are knowingly illegal. Same goes for some one I see run a stop sign or steal something in a store.

Right is right and wrong is wrong no matter the reasons or logic behind it.

I care about this profession and the generalized stereotypes and unfair beliefs many people have about it and I work hard to maintain a good program with a good reputation so I will always do what I believe is for the improvement of this field.

Wow, I am kind of flattered if that is the silliest thing you have read on this board, BC! Making laws you cannot enforce sounds about as silly to me, but that is my opinion. So who determines what is right and what is wrong? I think you stated earlier about who determines what is quality care. Does being a politician who may have never taken care of child in their whole life a good representative for what is right and wrong when it comes to childcare? In another thread about quality childcare, many people stated they would prefer small groups, yet the state will license someone for 12 kids or more. Does that provide more quality childcare than someone who illegally watches two kids in a state where you have to have a license no matter how many kids? Our country loves to make laws, yet they have very little means to enforce them. When it comes to child care, I feel it should be up to the parents to keep up with their providers. Unless I have direct knowledge of abuse, I am not going to call someone out for making a living.

[Blackcat31]

Wow, I am kind of flattered if that is the silliest thing you have read on this board, BC! Making laws you cannot enforce sounds about as silly to me, but that is my opinion. So who determines what is right and what is wrong? I think you stated earlier about who determines what is quality care. Does being a politician who may have never taken care of child in their whole life a good representative for what is right and wrong when it comes to childcare? In another thread about quality childcare, many people stated they would prefer small groups, yet the state will license someone for 12 kids or more. Does that provide more quality childcare than someone who illegally watches two kids in a state where you have to have a license no matter how many kids? Our country loves to make laws, yet they have very little means to enforce them. When it comes to child care, I feel it should be up to the parents to keep up with their providers. Unless I have direct knowledge of abuse, I am not going to call someone out for making a living.

You do. You get to vote for every politician that represents your area/city/state that runs for office.

The ones we like or voted for don't always get elected but they are still elected by the people.

As for agreeing or disagreeing with the laws/rules...instead of people just ignoring them if they don't agree, there are hundreds of thousands of people every year who advocate for change and many DO make a difference....

I am not saying I agree wholeheartedly with every law my state has but I still follow them because the law is the law and as a person with a huge conscience, I just couldn't bring myself to blatantly break the law. I just couldn't.

Like the stop sign I mentioned earlier... I stop (completely) every day. Once on my way to work and once on my way home from work and have done so for 20+ years......even though I don't think I have ever seen another car/driver on the road at that stop sign even once in all those years....but still I stop. Because it's the law.

Now if I thought I shouldn't have to stop at that intersection because it's a poorly placed stop sign (it is) I would lobby to have it removed before I ever felt justified in ignoring it or blatantly disregarding it.

As for your statement "Unless I have direct knowledge of abuse, I am not going to call someone out for making a living" does that apply to drug dealers too? Same concept.... you have NO direct knowledge of the impact of their illegal behavior but if your neighbor was dealing drugs (without having an effect on you) would you turn them in or would you let them continue dealing drugs because they are after all just trying to make a living...just like everyone else?

[mommyneedsadayoff]

You do. You get to vote for every politician that represents your area/city/state that runs for office.

The ones we like or voted for don't always get elected but they are still elected by the people.

As for agreeing or disagreeing with the laws/rules...instead of people just ignoring them if they don't agree, there are hundreds of thousands of people every year who advocate for change and many DO make a difference....

I am not saying I agree wholeheartedly with every law my state has but I still follow them because the law is the law and as a person with a huge conscience, I just couldn't bring myself to blatantly break the law. I just couldn't.

Like the stop sign I mentioned earlier... I stop (completely) every day. Once on my way to work and once on my way home from work and have done so for 20+ years......even though I don't think I have ever seen another car/driver on the road at that stop sign even once in all those years....but still I stop. Because it's the law.

Now if I thought I shouldn't have to stop at that intersection because it's a poorly placed stop sign (it is) I would lobby to have it removed before I ever felt justified in ignoring it or blatantly disregarding it.

As for your statement "Unless I have direct knowledge of abuse, I am not going to call someone out for making a living" does that apply to drug dealers too? Same concept.... you have NO direct knowledge of the impact of their illegal behavior but if your neighbor was dealing drugs (without having an effect on you) would you turn them in or would you let them continue dealing drugs because they are after all just trying to make a living...just like everyone else?

I would not turn in my neighbor for drug dealing, unless I know they are selling to kids. I have very strong opinions on drug laws. I watched my mother suffer through 10 years of leukemia and if she had been ale to have the drugs that are now available for medicinal use in many states, she would have had a much better quality of life. I don't judge based on laws. I do not look at someone who has used marijuana and been caught as a bad person or even someone worthy of prison time. I judge based on character and what I KNOW, not what I believe to be true. You can make anything a law, but it does not matter if you do not enforce it. Similar to how you can have rules/policies in your daycare, but if you don't enforce them, they don't mean a thing.

[mommyneedsadayoff]

just curious why my previous post would not be allowed without a moderator allowing it? Did I do something wrong?

[Blackcat31]

I would not turn in my neighbor for drug dealing, unless I know they are selling to kids. I have very strong opinions on drug laws. I watched my mother suffer through 10 years of leukemia and if she had been ale to have the drugs that are now available for medicinal use in many states, she would have had a much better quality of life. I don't judge based on laws. I do not look at someone who has used marijuana and been caught as a bad person or even someone worthy of prison time. I judge based on character and what I KNOW, not what I believe to be true. You can make anything a law, but it does not matter if you do not enforce it. Similar to how you can have rules/policies in your daycare, but if you don't enforce them, they don't mean a thing.

I guess we will just agree to disagree then.

My faith in the law is dependent on the fact that people will do the right thing and follow the law regardless of whether it's enforced or not.

[mommyneedsadayoff]

I totally understand! Different perspectives and views is what makes us all unique My own experiences have turned me away from using the law as an excuse to bring people down. I give what I get and it is great love and respect for caring for children...licensed or not, the people I know are good people and they don't deserve to be treated like a criminal and be investigated. If you feel the need to turn someone in, the go with your gut! Instinct is something you should not ignore!