Time Outs

[marniewon]

For those providers who use timeouts I have three questions....
1)What is your adult to child ratio?
2)How many hours a day are your dc kiddies in you care?
3)How often do you timeouts?

1) Up until now, the "adults" outweigh the children. I have been running 2-3 children to up to all 3 of us "workers".
2)9.5 hours
3) As often as necessary, although it's not been that necessary lately.

I have to agree with Robin on this time-out vs. redirection thing. Maybe it's my age, but I think the "experts" recommend coddling these kids to the point of irresponsibility and having a whole generation of entitled kids (and parents, nowadays). I guess I'm old school, but if a kid needs a swat on the behind, they should get one. It will NOT break their little spirits or lead to aggressive, violent children. It's the children who are not effectively disciplined who tend to be aggressive and violent. I'm not talking about beating the kids, or even spanking for every little offense, but kids need to be taught right from wrong, and need to learn to be responsible for their actions, and know there are consequences for every behavior (good and bad). And no, I do not "spank" dc kids, and I know this isn't about spanking, so I'll get back on track.

Redirection does not work with all kids or in all situations. I had 14 mo old dcb who recently left my care. Redirection DID NOT work with him. As an example, he would be banging on a window with a toy bowling pin. Redirect him to a toy drum to beat on, he looks at the drum, continues to beat on window. I move him away from window with drum and he gets up and moves back to the window to beat on the window again. Move, redirect, goes back at it. Over and over. Stop. Remove him from window, take away pins, put him in TO (in an exersaucer) and he learns that he cannot beat on the window. A few times of this and he no longer beats on the window. You can see his smart little baby-brain working, because next time he gets those pins and goes to the window, he thinks about beating on the window, but he doesn't. He doesn't want to be restrained in an area that is not fun (time out). Redirection did not work at all, but time out did. That is just one example with this child.

2 year old dcb - came to me in June, and was in daily (sometimes hourly) time out. Talking to him did not work. Redirecting worked marginally well, for the moment, but did not stop dcb from going back and doing the same thing over again a few minutes later. Now, he is one of the best behaved children here. He is a true joy to have here and he KNOWS what "no" means, and knows what the consequences of doing something wrong is here, and he doesn't like it. Now, we go weeks, sometimes months, without a time out. He knows the rules here and follows them!

Both of those children love being here. I did not hurt their little psyches by disciplining them - just the opposite - they love to be here and play with their friends who are also well behaved and fun to play with. You can also tell that their parents do not have the same rules or level of discipline that I have, because the first of the week is always a little rough, and especially if they had more than a 2 day weekend.

[caregiver]

THANK YOU Marniewon!!!!!!!!!! I am so glad to hear what you do and what you believe in for disipline! I TOTALLy agree with everything you said. You are so Right On!!!!!
Thank Goodness there is someone out there that believes the same as I do. The children DO need the disipline and they are not getting it today with this new redirection stuff because people are afraid to make the kids accountable for their actions. The kids don't learn what they are doing wrong if you redirect them to do something else, it is not solving the problem, like you said that little boy kept doing the same thing over & over when you redirected him, but once you put him in time out, he learned.
Thanks so much for your support!
For the other providers, I do give positive praise when the kids do something good, but when they do something wrong, they need to know that so they learn from that and don't do it again. Also if time outs run into meal time, nap time or potty time that is what happens. They must learn the meaning of good behavior and not know that if they are naughty and get put in time out and it is meal time they can get out. That is not making them understand what they did wrong and what time out is for. I don't mind if we miss the certain time of meals,potty or other stuff if it means making the kids learn what misbehaving means,so what if meal time is 15 minutes late or even nap time,the kids must learn. It doesn't upset my day to not have everything on a schedule. Oh and I only take 2-3 children in my home so I CAN give them the time,attention, Love and discipline that they need and don't get a lot of in larger groups. This is just the way I choose to run my Daycare.

[SilverSabre25]

THANK YOU Marniewon!!!!!!!!!! I am so glad to hear what you do and what you believe in for disipline! I TOTALLy agree with everything you said. You are so Right On!!!!!
Thank Goodness there is someone out there that believes the same as I do. The children DO need the disipline and they are not getting it today with this new redirection stuff because people are afraid to make the kids accountable for their actions. The kids don't learn what they are doing wrong if you redirect them to do something else, it is not solving the problem, like you said that little boy kept doing the same thing over & over when you redirected him, but once you put him in time out, he learned.
Thanks so much for your support!

Okay, so what I'm getting here is that you just wanted validation that your way is right--and you feel that way because at least one person does it your way. You didn't want discussion or opinions--you wanted to feel validated and wanted to talk about how stupid anyone is who uses any other method. You are only reading/hearing what you want to, and seem completely unwilling to accept that maybe there's a different approach.

It's harsh, and awfully ridiculous to assume across the board that redirection doesn't work because you're not making kids "accountable"--well, I have news for you, Robin--very young children *aren't* accountable for their actions. From a developmental perspective, they have NO impulse control and do NOT understand perspective taking (seeing it from someone else's point of view), they do NOT have empathy yet and are NOT capable of understanding that their actions are undesirable. This is WHY redirection works. Time out for a very young child (up to the age where they are really verbal and comprehend what you say, so 2 or 3) is useless because it only tells them what they did WRONG--not what the RIGHT thing to do is.

Redirection is all about distracting them from the behavior that is undesirable and providing them with a desirable alternative ("We don't hit people; hands are for hugging. You can hit the floor if you need to hit"). This is how they LEARN. Redirection is PRIMARILY for young children.

Time out is MOST effective when also used with other methods--"Here go in time out...okay, now you're done go play" is NOT going to be as effective as making sure, both before and after the time out, that the child understands A) what was undesirable about the behavior, and more importantly B) What the child can do differently or better next time

Yes, SOME children don't get redireciton. Yes, some children need time outs--even young children. Nothing is one size fits all. If you don't understand redirection, which you don't seem to, don't use it--but don't assume that because someone prefers redirection with very young chlidren that the children aren't being taught--because in many cases, you're wrong. Yes, there are people who don't know how to use redirection appropriately and effectively, who let their children get away with things, who don't teach just as assuredly as time out by itself does not teach. Parents who use time outs inappropriately will have behavior problems just as assuredly as parents who use redirection inappropriately, or spanking, or whatever. Parents who use ANY of those methods appropriately might have well-behaved children.

It doesn't work for you, fine. Time outs do work for you, fine. But you need to stop assuming that every other method doesn't work.

[caregiver]

I am not saying everyone else is stupid or everyone should do time outs. As I said this is just the way I do my daycare, that is all. I just know that the rediretion thing for a lot of kids does not solve the problem of the misbehavior, it tells them what other chocies they can have, but does not make them understand what they did was wrong. I'm sorry, but that is just the way I feel and if rediretion works for others, more power to them. I just wanted to know how many did time outs and for how long.

[Luna]

Okay, so what I'm getting here is that you just wanted validation that your way is right--and you feel that way because at least one person does it your way. You didn't want discussion or opinions--you wanted to feel validated and wanted to talk about how stupid anyone is who uses any other method. You are only reading/hearing what you want to, and seem completely unwilling to accept that maybe there's a different approach.

It's harsh, and awfully ridiculous to assume across the board that redirection doesn't work because you're not making kids "accountable"--well, I have news for you, Robin--very young children *aren't* accountable for their actions. From a developmental perspective, they have NO impulse control and do NOT understand perspective taking (seeing it from someone else's point of view), they do NOT have empathy yet and are NOT capable of understanding that their actions are undesirable. This is WHY redirection works. Time out for a very young child (up to the age where they are really verbal and comprehend what you say, so 2 or 3) is useless because it only tells them what they did WRONG--not what the RIGHT thing to do is.

Redirection is all about distracting them from the behavior that is undesirable and providing them with a desirable alternative ("We don't hit people; hands are for hugging. You can hit the floor if you need to hit"). This is how they LEARN. Redirection is PRIMARILY for young children.

Time out is MOST effective when also used with other methods--"Here go in time out...okay, now you're done go play" is NOT going to be as effective as making sure, both before and after the time out, that the child understands A) what was undesirable about the behavior, and more importantly B) What the child can do differently or better next time

Yes, SOME children don't get redireciton. Yes, some children need time outs--even young children. Nothing is one size fits all. If you don't understand redirection, which you don't seem to, don't use it--but don't assume that because someone prefers redirection with very young chlidren that the children aren't being taught--because in many cases, you're wrong. Yes, there are people who don't know how to use redirection appropriately and effectively, who let their children get away with things, who don't teach just as assuredly as time out by itself does not teach. Parents who use time outs inappropriately will have behavior problems just as assuredly as parents who use redirection inappropriately, or spanking, or whatever. Parents who use ANY of those methods appropriately might have well-behaved children.

It doesn't work for you, fine. Time outs do work for you, fine. But you need to stop assuming that every other method doesn't work.

LIKE button please.

[Luna]

I am not saying everyone else is stupid or everyone should do time outs. As I said this is just the way I do my daycare, that is all. I just know that the rediretion thing for a lot of kids does not solve the problem of the misbehavior, it tells them what other chocies they can have, but does not make them understand what they did was wrong. I'm sorry, but that is just the way I feel and if rediretion works for others, more power to them. I just wanted to know how many did time outs and for how long.

I'm not sure that the very young children ever understand that what they did was wrong, with any method. What I'm hoping for is that they understand "if I do "X", Luna's going to stop me", so eventually they just won't bother doing it. This is for the VERY young ones. I feel like if they're sitting on a long time out, they quickly forget "why" they're sitting there.

[caregiver]

time outs

I also have to agree with Robin. Children these days are not taught that they have to be responsible for their actions. They are given a "Choice" on what they can do instead of doing what they were doing wrong. Redirecting I think you are calling it. In my option that may work for some kids, but it is still not teaching them and making them understand what they did that was wrong. It is just getting them to look at doing something different to get their mind off of what they were doing wrong. Now that does not teach them that it was wrong to do what they did, does it? Time outs are not a bad thing and it enforces to them that they can't do what they did and get by with it and know that nobody will call them on it. THEY have to learn, by having consequences as you say or they will keep doing it. Kids 2 yrs & older DO know what they did wrong and DO understand time outs. This modern way of disciplining does not teach children that they have to be responsible for what they do. Sorry, but I do time outs also and think they are a good way of showing kids how to be responsible for what they do.

[Cat Herder]

So far, it is nice to know that I am not the only one to use time outs. I don't think that just putting them in time out for as many minutes as they are old though, is going to do any good. You have to have them sit for at least ten minutes so they can think about what they did and why they are in time out.

This is considered child abuse by my state liscensing body. If I was accused of this I would be shut down while DFACS investigated the claim. Once I was proven guilty I would go to jail.

Redirection and one minute/per year of age in a quiet area is ALL we are LEGALLY allowed. There is no debate, here.

Here is our training. Feel free to laugh. Some is sweet, some is well, um....

THE ABC’S OF BEHAVIOR MANAGEMENT
Always consider the child’s feelings. Be courteous and expect courtesy. Avoid embarrassing a
child.
Be alert and observant. Develop an ability to always see or know what is going on in your
group. Convey your alertness and attentiveness to the children. This is perhaps the most
effective way to prevent problems before
they occur.
Choose your words carefully when problems do arise.
Discipline yourself. In other words, control your temper. Some children enjoy seeing your
reactions to their behavior. In addition, you may be inadvertently teaching children that angry
outbursts are acceptable.
Excessive flattery as a technique to motivate or control is ineffective. Children regard this
technique as phony “gushiness.” It deteriorates the esteem the students hold for you as an
adult. Acceptance of each child must be sincere and unconditional.
Firmness and fairness should abide.
Good humor goes a long way. Children who see you happy are more likely to be happy
themselves. Don’t be afraid to laugh at yourself.
Handle problems yourself as much as possible. Do not threaten to send a child to the
supervisor. In fact, be very careful about threatening anything. Threats can cause a power
struggle which generally escalates into a no-win situation.
Ignore those behaviors that are just to get attention.
Join the children at the back of the line. That way you can see all of them as they go down the
hall.
Keep this simple idea in mind...We are not dealing with children who are problems, but rather
children who may have problems.
Lead and train children at the beginning of the year.
Make positive statements as much as possible. Warm responses and wholesome child
demeanor are largely a result of the degree of positivism the teacher shows the children.
Never underestimate the power of your appearance. Staff members should dress appropriately.
Wear comfortable clothing and shoes, but exercise good taste. Remember the manner in which
you dress sets the climate for your group.
Options are important to children. Vary activities to reduce boredom and enhance their
interest.
Proximity control is an effective preventative approach. Some misbehavior can be stopped by
moving close to the child who is causing the problem.
Quiet activities can be just as much fun as noisy ones.
Routine rules and procedures such as room use, returning and leaving the room, distributing
materials, and cleanup should be presented beforehand. Smoother transitions occur when time
is invested in teaching children such procedures early in the program.
Show the children you are up for the challenge. A well-organized plan is the most essential key
to good behavior. There is no substitute for being well prepared. Remember: Staff who fail to
plan, plan to fail.
Try to predict what would confuse or distract children.
Use natural consequences as appropriate. Try to devise a consequence that is a natural
outgrowth of the behavior. For example—have a child sweep the room if he or she has been
throwing sand from the sand and water table.
Value each child and time spent with every child. Make the most of it. Understand that while
children are with you, your role becomes both teacher and substitute parent.
Watch the amount of attention you give to individual children. Whether it is for a problem or
not, children “tune in” to how much time you spend with others. Refrain from favoritism.
Children can sense this immediately.
X-pect to have fun. Meeting your own expectations always makes you feel good about yourself
and the program.
Yelling is not effective with children. Teachers who use this approach may have quiet,
controlled children one moment, and angry, hostile ones the next.
Zoom in and handle problems quickly. The sooner the problem is handled, the less disruptive it
will become. When you see disruptive behavior let the child know immediately. Otherwise, by
“letting it slide” you are in effect, telling the child that the behavior is acceptable.

[Blackcat31]

I have a question for those of you who do use time out. Many posters on this thread are saying that redirection does not teach a child anything...so I would like to know in detail what exactly time out teaches a child when they hit someone for example? Let's say a child is 3 and they hit another child of the same age while playing with the cars. They have to go to time out. What exactly are they learning from that experience?
IMPO, I think it is like prison sentences...if offenders are not taught a different way of doing things (Re-direction) then they continually re-offend. They may learn to not do the crime in front of you the provider but they will never know a different way of conflict resolution. When I personally say re-direction, I mean giving the child an alternative to his bad choice/behavior and having them not be allowed to play in the group if specific social skills are not observed within that play period. Timmy learns if he wants to hit, he can hit the bean bag and if he hits other children he can not play with them. Timmy just got a choice, which is important for learning self-regulation and self-control and he learned a social skill which is that he is required to behave in a certain way to be part of a group. By giving him that choice he also learns he has control over his actions.
So my question is still, when a child sits in time-out for up to 10 minutes (:confused, what is he learning from sitting. If you have a discussion about the bad behavior after his time out, now the whole situation just became atleast a 30 minute span of attention he received without really learning anything except "Boy, sitting for that long sure ****ed...I better make sure when I hit Billy again I do it so Ms. Johnson doesn't see me do it" Sitting for up to 10 minutes just gives them time to think about how to re-offend in different ways...it offers no alternatives for doing things differently. ..and after sitting for ten minutes I wouldn't have any attention left to listen to the discussion that would follow. JUST MY OPINION.

[caregiver]

OMG people! Get real! Time out is NOT, I repeat NOT,child abuse!!!Give me a break! Time out is an discipline action for doing something naughty and please think about it for a minute without jumping to conclusions, it is just another way of discipline, If a child has to sit in a comfortable child size, padded chair for just a few minutes is that abuse!!!!!!! Come on!!!!! It just teaches the child that if they misbehave they will have to sit in the time out chair, away from the other kids, but maybe in the same room until they can be nice and treat the other kids nicely!!! IS that abuse!!!!!! They have to learn that when they do something wrong they will be called on it, whatever way the daycare provider chooses to discipline. Just telling not to do it again, if you have to repeatably remind them of it or getting them involved in some other activity DOES not solve the misbehavior problem. The child is learning that if he or she doesn't want to sit in time out again and not get to play for a few minutes, them they won't want to misbehave again and if they do misbehave again, well then you should be talking to the parents about what he or she is doing and get their suggestions and help on the matter. Involve the parents in your disciplining. If your parents do the time out thing and they say to you that you should be doing that at daycare too if needed, then there is nothing abusive about it. We need too work with parents and let them know what we are doing for discipline and working together with them. Sorry.....This is ridiculous, time out is in no way mean or abusive, Daycare centers do it and I know that for a fact. So come on people, let not accuse people who use timeouts as abusive daycare providers!!!!!!!!!!!!

[caregiver]

Also the example of say Timmy hitting another child just getting a talking to about not doing the hitting,or saying you can hit the floor instead or something else like a toy, that is not something that he will not do again because he knows he will not be called on it and have consquenses for what he did. Choices are not something that will make someone stop a bad behavior because nothing will happen to reinforce the bad behavior to them. They need to learn what doing someathing they should do will mean to them so they don't want to do it again.

[Cat Herder]

OMG people! Get real! Time out is NOT, I repeat NOT,child abuse!!!Give me a break! Time out is an discipline action for doing something naughty and please think about it for a minute without jumping to conclusions, it is just another way of discipline, If a child has to sit in a comfortable child size, padded chair for just a few minutes is that abuse!!!!!!! Come on!!!!! It just teaches the child that if they misbehave they will have to sit in the time out chair, away from the other kids, but maybe in the same room until they can be nice and treat the other kids nicely!!! IS that abuse!!!!!! They have to learn that when they do something wrong they will be called on it, whatever way the daycare provider chooses to discipline. Just telling not to do it again, if you have to repeatably remind them of it or getting them involved in some other activity DOES not solve the misbehavior problem. The child is learning that if he or she doesn't want to sit in time out again and not get to play for a few minutes, them they won't want to misbehave again and if they do misbehave again, well then you should be talking to the parents about what he or she is doing and get their suggestions and help on the matter. Involve the parents in your disciplining. If your parents do the time out thing and they say to you that you should be doing that at daycare too if needed, then there is nothing abusive about it. We need too work with parents and let them know what we are doing for discipline and working together with them. Sorry.....This is ridiculous, time out is in no way mean or abusive, Daycare centers do it and I know that for a fact. So come on people, let not accuse people who use timeouts as abusive daycare providers!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think you are taking what was said out of context, it was NOT a debate or accusation. Just a fact. I will cut and paste...directly from my rules and regs.

GUIDANCE
The home may use non-punitive disciplinary practices that do not result in physical, emotional or psychological harm to the child. The provider and employees shall care for children without resorting to physical punishment or abusive language. Caregivers shall acknowledge and model desired behavior. The use of “time-out” is recommended for children age 3 years or over. Homes should selectively use “time-out” only to enable the child to regain control of themselves. The caregiver shall keep the child within visual contact and should limit the amount of time that the child is placed in time-out to one minute per year of age. The caregiver should take into account the child’s developmental stage, tolerances, and ability to learn from “time-out”. Examples of inappropriate discipline are to place a child facing the wall while in time-out, threatening the child that they will call their mother, father, police, etc., speaking directly to the child in a loud and threatening voice or grabbing the child by the arm or clothing to move the child.

[caregiver]

I guess I would not want to be a provider in your state then because all of this is just enabling the child to not learn what consequences for bad actions or behavior means.
My own children who are older, in high school now, were brought up in time outs, facing the wall if needed and yes, my husband & I would raise our voices once in awhile, but they listened and learned that all that meant that they would be called on their behavior and would not want to do it again. I'm not saying time outs should be used all the time, but when they will not listen to you and you have to repeat and repeat to them what they doing wrong and they still do it, then you have to do something to make them realize that they better not keep doing it. My kids have turned out really well, time outs did not hurt them or any thing else we did to disipline them. They know that their are consequences for things they do and never have gotten into any trouble with the law or anyone else. They know that they have to be responsible for what ever they do.

[ninosqueridos]

Oh and I only take 2-3 children in my home so I CAN give them the time,attention, Love and discipline that they need and don't get a lot of in larger groups. This is just the way I choose to run my Daycare.

Oh....yeah......because if you care for more children, they wouldn't get the time, attention, love, and discipline. Riiiiiight.

[My Lil' Monkeys]

For those providers who use timeouts I have three questions....
1)What is your adult to child ratio?
2)How many hours a day are your dc kiddies in you care?
3)How often do you timeouts?

1) 1 adult allowed to 6 kids (I have 3 some days and 4 some days)

2) 8 - 11 hrs

3) most days none - I do have an 18 month old that some days you look at her wrong and she'll scream her head off and I've had to place her in a "cooling off" spot