Is There Anything I Can Say - or Just Keep Ignoring It

[caitlin]

nannyde what does your son do during the day? I imagine he is at school most of the day now, since he is older, but what about before? What about when he was an infant or toddler? Did you send him to another daycare?

I just don't get it. The biting, tantrums, hitting, etc are all normal toddler behaviors, it is how they learn before they are verbal. I wish I could avoid all of that, but I don't understand how you can do it. :confused:

What ages do you have?

[Lucy]

Nannyde, I applaud you for staying calm and rational with all the negative attention you've gotten here.

While I'm glad your system works for you, there's absolutely nothing about it I agree with. However, there's no reason for us to go back and forth about it on a chat forum. It's none of my business, it doesn't affect me one way or another, and if your clients and kids are happy, then Amen.

Again, kudos for taking it all so well.

[QualiTcare]

That's so sad to me. It breaks my heart to think that someone as experienced and educated as you are believes that violence in young children is as inevitable as puberty in teens.

What has our world come to

.....

violence in young children! i guess you could technically call it that, but i've never looked at a child who grabbed a toy away or smacked another child as being a "violent child" - assuming it's not on a regular basis. that's like calling someone who had a few drinks ONE night "a drunk," or someone who steps on a roach "a murderer!" ::

i'm not saying it's okay for kids to go around smacking each other, but for you to say in 17 years it's never happened - not one time - i'm not buying it.

it breaks MY heart that someone with your, um, "wisdom" would tell such silly tales.

[nannyde]

nannyde what does your son do during the day? I imagine he is at school most of the day now, since he is older, but what about before? What about when he was an infant or toddler? Did you send him to another daycare?

I just don't get it. The biting, tantrums, hitting, etc are all normal toddler behaviors, it is how they learn before they are verbal. I wish I could avoid all of that, but I don't understand how you can do it. :confused:

What ages do you have?

He is in school now but when he was under the age of one he was just on an opposite schedule: He napped while they were up and was up while they napped. When he was old enough to walk I had a full time staff member and a big house. I renovated the house so that he could have full run of the majority of the first floor of the house without supervision. He ran the house all day every day. He had three mornings a week prek when he was three and four days a week when he was four.

I don't have any violence in my house. I have said it over and over but obviously I can't do more than say it. My kids do not hit, fight, bite, or be mean to each other in any way. I'm so confident of this that I use it as a selling tool for my business. I have it posted on my website so that parents know that is what I say happens at my house. It would be very silly to advertise this if there was any liklihood that a kid would actually get hit or bit here.

I have a system of care that brings children from birth to age five without ANY kind of violence at all in my home.

[nannyde]

.....

violence in young children! i guess you could technically call it that, but i've never looked at a child who grabbed a toy away or smacked another child as being a "violent child" - assuming it's not on a regular basis. that's like calling someone who had a few drinks ONE night "a drunk," or someone who steps on a roach "a murderer!" ::

i'm not saying it's okay for kids to go around smacking each other, but for you to say in 17 years it's never happened - not one time - i'm not buying it.

it breaks MY heart that someone with your, um, "wisdom" would tell such silly tales.

You can choose not to believe it and that's cool. I have a system of raising children from birth to five that results in NO violence at all. I'm 31 years into raising kids and I'm really good at what I do.

Kids CAN be raised in a completely non violent zero tolerance policy care. I do it every day.

[DancingQueen]

I'm curious.
children learn things at home or when they are not in your care. Behaviors that it sounds like you would not want in your daycare.

What happens if little timmy comes in one Monday morning and hit another kid. Just once. What would you do.

I was reading your advertising verbiage and you said you don't use time out instead you prefer to use YOUR method. What is your method? Because if you really insist that no one even tries out this pushing shoving hitting stuff then I'd love to know how you accomplish it.
Because I will beleive that you do not allow it - but I can't believe that no child has ever attempted it.

Now and then a child may need a time out to cool their jets and get a chance to start over again. We rarely use this because it doesn't work very well but will give it a try if we are unsuccessful with our other methods.

[nannyde]

I'm curious.
children learn things at home or when they are not in your care. Behaviors that it sounds like you would not want in your daycare.

What happens if little timmy comes in one Monday morning and hit another kid. Just once. What would you do.

I was reading your advertising verbiage and you said you don't use time out instead you prefer to use YOUR method. What is your method? Because if you really insist that no one even tries out this pushing shoving hitting stuff then I'd love to know how you accomplish it.
Because I will beleive that you do not allow it - but I can't believe that no child has ever attempted it.

I pretty much raise only children. I've only had one sib set in care in the last nine years. 19 out of 20 kids come to me as newborns. The other one of twenty come as young infants.

The kids are raised here together their whole life. They don't know any other life but this. They have the same care givers every day and the same routine. We have a LOT of physical space where we can divide out the kids into their own areas and mix and match the kids to each other based on what they are doing at the time. We have a lot of space and flexibility. We also have a one adult to four children MAX ratio. Most days it is a one adult to 3 to 3.5 ratio. Our daily attendance is usually 6-7 kids.

My system of corrections begins when the children get mobile. I correct small behaviors so they don't lead to the more complex behaviors. I have probably five or six hundred rules of play that I use. I've never written them down but they are all systematic brick in the wall behavior building rules of play that lead to completely calm and stable kids.

I wouldn't ever have time to write out all the techniques but this is one I wrote for Justthebabysitter.com regarding children hitting babies: It's one of my techniques I call "Surrender to the Baby". I have used this technique for 17 years.

This is in response to a post where someone said an older kid hit a baby in their day care.

Me: If a kid in my house laid a hand on one of my babies they would be done that day. I've never had that happen in 16 years of doing day care. I don't give a $hit if it was my best family or not. I train these guys from the time they ARE babies to not touch my babies. Do not touch them or ANYTHING associated with them. When they get in your space or do something you don't like you SURRENDER to the baby. The baby ALWAYS wins at that very moment... until I come to correct.

When the baby does something they shouldn't and the kid surrenders then I go in and correct the baby. That's how it's done baby after baby.

Don't touch their toys.
Don't touch their exersaucers.
Don't touch their high chair.
Don't touch ANYTHING related to the babies.

DO NOT TOUCH MY BABIES.

So if one of the kids in my house who had been trained from the time they were babies to not touch my babies pinched or hit one of my babies it would mean they were COMPLETELY insane and out of control. That would be a crime of biblical proportions here. They would have to go that day. NO exceptions.

Surrender to the baby is a building block of tolerance that must be ingrained in them from the time they are very young. It's a system where they basically collapse and avoid any conflict brought by the baby. If the baby is trying to climb up on the toddler the toddler just folds over and lets the baby do it. They don't push the baby away or jut their body away... they just relax and allow it until I come to remove the baby off of them.

If a baby tries to take their toys they give it to them. They don't play tug of war. They don't body block the baby so the baby can't get their body to the toy. They don't hold the toy up in the air so the baby can't reach it. They learn to NOT do the normal things kids do to protect their own stuff. They do MY system which is let the baby win at the moment with no conflict and then I will come in and "right" it by restoring your position and the toy you have been playing with.

The baby will be disciplined by ME... not the kid.

This techniques ingranes into the childrens heads that the younger kids are no competition to them. Their job is to PROTECT the baby that is doing something unfair or unsafe. They think of the BABY first... not themselves... because they know in a second or two the world will be right again.

This is done with every single child from about eight months on. The children learn to surrender to younger children when the younger one is not being fair. They learn to NOT fight it out. They learn they we will right it if they are wronged.

They do not COMPETE ever with each other. Surrender to the baby is the foundational tool for a non competition mindset.

.................................................

that's one of my techniques... I have about five hundred others.

You said: What happens if little timmy comes in one Monday morning and hit another kid. Just once. What would you do.

Well I haven't had that happen but I would most likely kick the kid out. The parents would understand this though because as time rolls on with thier kid in my house they go month after month... year after year.. .with NEVER having their own kid being hit and never hearing their kid hit. So if after two/three/four years of nothing ever happening and all of a sudden it does... That would be pretty serious to them and really serious to the parents of the kid that got hit and to me.

I have a zero tolerance policy for hitting and they all know it. When you have that in place the parents know from the time the babies are newborns that this is something they will loose this child care over. The parents are keenly aware that any violence will lead me to boot them so they need to keep their kid in check from the go so year after year... kid after kid .. they do.

It would break my heart but I don't think I could feel secure in my work if I had a kid that was raised here and was violent. It would mean that the kid just didn't get what we do here or has an impulse control that's lacking severely. I just couldn't keep up with that so I would sadly have to terminate.

It's all in theory tho... I haven't ever had to do that... but you are asking what I would do so I can only guess this would be it.

[DBug]

Nannyde, I am very interested in your techniques. I have a VERY low tolerance for physical contact among my own kids and my dc kids. Even a pat on the back can get out of control quite quickly. However, many times I haven't been able to predict a random outburst of hitting. Up until I read what you said earlier in this thread, I have been operating under the assumption that hitting, biting, etc. is normal (even though it's unacceptable and I deal with it as promptly as possible). My working theory has been that some children (not all) need to experience consequences before understanding what's right and wrong in the first place. And of course, the only way they can experience consequences is by breaking the rules. I hadn't considered the idea that the aggression isn't a necessary evil of childhood.

How do you prevent it, especially among children so young? How exactly do you avoid the inevitable toddler outburst? If a child comes to you over the age of one, how do you teach them your rules without them testing them?

[QualiTcare]

it sounds like you're talking about an older child hitting a baby who "doesn't know any better." that's not what i'm talking about - that's obviously not okay and not likely to happen. an older child hitting a baby is grasping at straws to try to explain.

2 kids of the same age who are, let's say 12-24 months old, ARE going to try to take toys away from each other. and when 12 month old suzie tries to take away 12 month old billy's toy - billy is going to smack, bite, pinch, scratch, or get a handful of hair at least ONCE! that's what young children DO. they don't know NOT to do that until they are taught not to do it, and you can't really teach them not to do it until it happens. unless of course they're required to watch a video that explains the importance of keeping hands to yourselves.

i don't care what kind of supernanny you are - you can not be hovering over every child EVERY second year after year and prevent the inevitable.

[Unregistered]

sounds like you run a child prison, i do not buy anything you say! kids ARE gonna test limits and boundraries. NO child is perfect and not all children will cooperate with your 'rules'....i just dont buy any of it BUT to each's own....if it supposedly works for you congrats. but i'd love to be a fly on the wall at your place

[nannyde]

it sounds like you're talking about an older child hitting a baby who "doesn't know any better." that's not what i'm talking about - that's obviously not okay and not likely to happen. an older child hitting a baby is grasping at straws to try to explain.

2 kids of the same age who are, let's say 12-24 months old, ARE going to try to take toys away from each other. and when 12 month old suzie tries to take away 12 month old billy's toy - billy is going to smack, bite, pinch, scratch, or get a handful of hair at least ONCE! that's what young children DO. they don't know NOT to do that until they are taught not to do it, and you can't really teach them not to do it until it happens. unless of course they're required to watch a video that explains the importance of keeping hands to yourselves.

i don't care what kind of supernanny you are - you can not be hovering over every child EVERY second year after year and prevent the inevitable.

I don't mix and match kids of that age group together because what you are saying is true. They don't free play together when they are twelve months old. I have the space and the staff to rotate them in play with the older and more experienced children who understand the "surrender to the baby". The babies don't understand surrender to the baby because they ARE the baby.

I rotate my kids in play. I make sure that the older children pass down to the younger children our ways.

I could put a 24 month child with a 12 month child and by the time the 24 month was 24 months he would be balanced and stable and know the proper way to manage the 12 month old. We do a LOT of training in this age range. It's the foundational age for teaching our non violent approach.

[Unregistered]

I don't mix and match kids of that age group together because what you are saying is true. They don't free play together when they are twelve months old. I have the space and the staff to rotate them in play with the older and more experienced children who understand the "surrender to the baby". The babies don't understand surrender to the baby because they ARE the baby.

I rotate my kids in play. I make sure that the older children pass down to the younger children our ways.

I could put a 24 month child with a 12 month child and by the time the 24 month was 24 months he would be balanced and stable and know the proper way to manage the 12 month old. We do a LOT of training in this age range. It's the foundational age for teaching our non violent approach.

so are you saying children of the same age groups do not play together??? thats crazy! a 2 yr old does NOT need to be with a 12month old as you say. children NEED to be with the same ages. I would never leave my child in your care with your 'rules'. They are crazy!

rotating children? LOL thats funny!

[nannyde]

so are you saying children of the same age groups do not play together??? thats crazy! a 2 yr old does NOT need to be with a 12month old as you say. children NEED to be with the same ages. I would never leave my child in your care with your 'rules'. They are crazy!

rotating children? LOL thats funny!

I have a very large play area in my home. I have five times what the state requires for space per child. I have two master play room that are about 300 square feet each plus separate sleeping rooms. I have a full time staff assistant and a max of a one to four ratio.

YES I do not mix two twelve month olds in play. I rotate kids thru different areas of the play rooms and of course we go out. The twelve month olds eat together, sleep in the same room, and ride in the stroller together but they do not play in the same area of the playroom at the same time together.

I need this time to train them one by one and do so with the older more experienced kid.

If you could not understand this kind of system, value it, and be willing to PAY for it then I wouldn't bother to interview you. So you are right.. it wouldn't work out.

[Unregistered]

I have no idea what my login information is anymore, but I do want to comment on this.

The key thing here is that Nan has 3 people for 6 or 7 kids, and in that number is a baby or two that certainly isn't cabpable of hitting, biting, etc. That leaves 4 or 5 children for 2 adults. In that scenario, an adult who is actively supervising the kids (the key word being ACTIVELY) wouldn't have any problem at ALL from keeping kids from hitting. Personally, I have no doubt that if I were to do daycare that way, that I could keep this a pretty smack free enviornment.

As it stands, I have 8 kids under school age, 2 of which are under the age of two, and 5 of which are in diapers.

If I were working outside the home, I would love Nann to keep my kids. They are well fed, safe, playing with child powered toys, and are more than adequately supervised. Sounds good to me! Then again, I don't need a provider to provide a family. Just good solid daycare.

3kidsmom

[JJPlaycare]

How do the kids you watch adjust once they leave your care and start school and are suddenly surrounded by kids their own age? They aren't rotated out, they are with the same kids all the day through! Also suddenly they are seeing all sorts of new behaviors, vocab and things you refer to as violence and didn't put up with, just wondering how they all adjust?