Terming Questions

[cheerfuldom]

I will say that I am a provider that has had a lot of turnover compared to some of you. Most were not terming so much as parting ways. I have had four kids in less than 6 years, been in and out of online college classes, been thru one move, my husband has gone back and forth between one and two jobs so that does affect what I can handle, plus I have had some health issues that again effect what I can and cannot handle. I have had some kids go off to preschool or move as well. So in defense of providers that do seem to have high turnover, that doesnt necessarily mean that there is a lot of terming. Both terms that come to mind were due to violent behavior.

[Laurel]

Thanks for all the answers. I was really curious. I have also been swamped with daycare and family responsibilities so couldn't seem to get back to read and make comments which I hope to do soon.

Laurel

[Laurel]

I have been doing this for over 30 years.

I haven't really "termed," more like just parted ways, except one family that more read the writing on the wall and quit coming, though I would not have accepted them in the door anyway.

I have seen many behavior problems, but mostly I can deal with them.

I did have a family leave due to the new "ethnic" makeup of my daycare. I had been watching her girls for two years, and took a new family where dad was white, and mom was African (as in moved here from Africa with the dad, who was there on a mission trip.) Wonderful people with two gorgeous kids, but 'mom of girls' tried to get me to drop them. When I realized what she was up to, I told her she was welcome to go, and to be honest, if she was going to treat them differently, I would rather she did go. She did.

The family I mention above had SOOOOO many issues, from a girl with head lice, to a young boy who would do things like step on the baby's fingers when he thought no one was watching, and tried to accuse me of abuse. I didn't tell her on Friday that she was termed, but had planned on doing so on Monday. They didn't come back.

Wow, because of prejudice? That's sad.

I am white and I've so many black and hispanic children in my daycare. A provider I know who is white said she only takes white children because she is afraid some of her other clients would leave like you experienced. Personally I think it was because SHE was prejudiced and that was just an excuse. I've never had anyone do what you've done because of race...thank goodness. If so, they know where the door is.

Laurel

[Laurel]

I feel like the queen of terming after reading these replies. ::
I USUALLY have 8-10 children here (and have had up to 12). I have had BIG turnover this year as I have termed many and helped many term themselves. I got to the point where I just didn't want to **** it up and deal any longer. I wanted to enjoy my job. Doing this has helped me to love it.

1. How many years doing this? Almost 1.5 years.

2. How many times termed? I have termed some and HELPED others term themselves. Had they not termed themselves, I would have done so. I termed 6 children (two were sibling sets of 2 children each, so 4 different families). I have HELPED 6 children's families term themselves (two were sibling sets of 2 children each, so 4 different families).

3. What did you term for?
DCG - Mom could not abide by the policies (many of them). The last time, she went on vacation one week and didn't pay me. She was insistent that she would NOT be paying for their week away but she WOULD pay me for the time DCG was coming ahead of time (like they are required to) and she would see me then. I told her no and termed her. Lots of drama and she begged to be taken back. She still badmouths me.

DCB - Had Autism, which is fine I have several with Autism, but was also extremely violent. If it had been limited to just me I could have coped but he would attempt to smash other children's heads with blocks when I wasn't looking so I termed after 1 day. Too much of a liability.

DCB (and DCG had to go too) - I had for 9 months and tried a variety of ways to curb his assaults on other children. Finally, he was suspended. Events from that month were blamed as the reason for his bad behavior (a lie) and I called them on that. I should have termed that family from the beginning, to be honest with you. That child caused me so much stress and the behavior never improved.

DCG & DCG - Their parents could not follow the policies and would throw fits when I insisted that they do. I had them for 15 months, I believe, and I could not take it any longer. After the last episode of bringing in a sick child I termed them and holy moly what a tantrum (complete with yelling at me in front of other children, a slammed door, and sending the husband over after hours).


Those that termed themselves (or I would have had to...)

DCB and DCB - Aggressive/violent behavior. When they were here, the child that assaulted others actually DIDN'T because of this oldest child's outlandish behavior. They lasted 1 month. They termed themselves because I wouldn't work for free an additional hour every evening.

DCB - Disrespectful/aggressive behavior. Only aggressive at pick-ups and would slap, scratch, pinch, etc. me. Disrespectful ALL the time. He was here for 6 months and his Dad wanted him at a "real Preschool." After moving to the "real Preschool" for 2 weeks they begged to come back.

DCG - Followed me around and could not make a single friend here. She wanted me to engage her the entire 9 hours she was here each day and would not speak to other children. She was here for 1 month and never made a friend. She also did not wish to eat unless we prepared unhealthy meals for her (which wouldn't happen) and Dad rudely confronted me about this issue. He demanded that we make her a peanut butter and jelly sandwich instead every meal and said she didn't like being here because of what we served. We insisted that they start teaching her how to eat appropriate foods for her age (she was overweight) so she wouldn't starve here as we were not changing our menu. They said they just couldn't get it under control and left.

DCG and DCG - Parents didn't want to pay after awhile. They went on a month long vacation last year after being here 4 months, no pay for me, and I allowed them to come back after it. 3 months later they tried to withdraw without a 2 weeks notice so they could save money again. We bartered because they didn't want to be sent to collections. When they began paying again, 3 months later they said they wanted to withdraw for 2 months this summer instead of 1 and then they'd be back. Then they said they weren't going to withdraw. Then, they said they were. Then, DCM said they were planning to keep them here to which I said I had already filled one spot and that child would begin on July xx.

The one that you termed after one day reminds me. I guess I did kind of term one but it was mutual. She only lasted a half of a day actually. The mom told me that she was a handful at the interview. She said she was fine with family but at places like the church and gym nursery she would always get calls to come get her.

Since they just lived on the next street over and my husband had sold his car to her husband a few years back and the dad had kept stopping asking if I had openings (when I didn't), and the great compliments from neighbors that the mom told me about, I told her I would give it a try but it would be a trial. The mom was soooo nice but this child needed her own adult like a nanny who could come to their house.

It just so happens that her first day was the day of one of my inspections This little girl just kept trying to escape. I have a gate that is somewhat flexible (made of a kind of netting) and she actually got under it (I'll never know how) just to run to the door and cry for mom. A little escape artist. I could barely get through the inspection cause the little girl screamed if I even got near her. So the inspector is a nice lady and the little girl would let her hold her. So all the while the inspector was doing the paper work she held this child who was about 2 1/2 or 3. Bless her heart!

So mom calls after about a half day and I tell her and she says "I figured as much. Would you like me to come pick her up?" I said Yes. The mom didn't even have to work that day as she was getting her used to daycare before starting a job.

The family completely understood and thanked me for trying. I've seen this little girl in the neighborhood and she seems perfectly normal as long as mom, day or older brothers are in sight.

I had forgotten about that one.

Laurel

[Laurel]

I've been open for 20 years and I've termed once, not long after I opened. It was a 4 year old who cussed like a sailor and the parents thought it was cute .

I think maybe twice I've encouraged families of some of my older kids to find a full day preschool situation since I felt they were outgrowing my program. I wouldn't have termed them, so I don't think that counts.

Omg, when I was a child my dad worked with a guy whose wife cussed and her kids copied her. Other than that, they were a nice family. Come to find out that this lady was a school teacher!!!!

No, I don't think those other ones count either.

Laurel

[Angelsj]

Wow, because of prejudice? That's sad.

I am white and I've so many black and hispanic children in my daycare. A provider I know who is white said she only takes white children because she is afraid some of her other clients would leave like you experienced. Personally I think it was because SHE was prejudiced and that was just an excuse. I've never had anyone do what you've done because of race...thank goodness. If so, they know where the door is.

Laurel

Exactly. I do not want that garbage in my house at all. I raised my kids in a predominately Hispanic neighborhood, and they all speak both English and Spanish (and French, but for a different reason.)
Over the years, I have watched kids from nearly any ethnic background you can come up with and they have all had wonderful things to teach my kids, from food, to language, to holidays...etc. I wouldn't give those experiences up for anything.
The only parents whose children I will not enroll are bigots.

[MotherNature]

I've been open 11 mos.
Termed one for violence. The mom was a nightmare anyway & refused to take my reports seriously about what her son was doing here and my concerns about being delayed & I was kinda looking for an excuse to let them go. They were my first family though, and I waited til I had a few families to help pay bills. It's been a much better month since he left, but he taught my son how to hit & push & now I'm dealing with that. Shoulda termed sooner.

[Laurel]

So just wondering:

1. How many years doing this? Off and on for more than 5 years this stretch

2. How many times termed? I honestly haven't kept track (is this bad)

3. What did you term for?
The only things I have ever termed for were non payment and continued failure to follow policies. I've never termed because of a child particularly. Although I've had most of my kids start here with no routine, eating Crap food at home, and allowed to do everything they wanted at home. They all shape up fine with some adjustment. It's the parents I have issues with. But I don't tolerate any disrespect and after a few warnings of policy violations, out the door they go.

Number 2 might be bad. ::

Not saying you do but I know some providers personally who have some pretty screwy policies. Like my provider friend who had quite a few family emergencies and gave my name as a sub. I was happy to help out as I don't take my limit in children as I am semi retired so always have a few openings that I don't care to fill.

One family brought their child to me one day but the next emergency said my house was too far. It really isn't that much farther but I feel like a provider shouldn't assign a substitute to their families and then expect payment from the family because "they could have gone to the substitute". In this case, my friend paid me rather than me collecting from her families. If I can't work then I don't expect families to pay me as they have to pay someone else that day and I think they should be able to choose who they want to care for their children.

She has lots of other policies I don't agree with also.

Another provider actually said to me "I have a high turnover because I always get in fights with parents and they leave." Well hello:confused: ::

I am just wondering if policies are too strict in a lot of these cases of high termination. I know it is in my friends. She is a wonderful person though and keeps getting calls so whatever....

Laurel

[mom2many]

I've been doing daycare for 27 years and have only termed one dck for aggressive and uncontrollable behavior. He was a handful and was trying to hurt other kids. I told dcm, who was a good friend, that I couldn't watch him anymore and she completely understood! He was difficult to manage at home as well, so it was no surprise!

However, I have had to term several families over the years, because of issues with the parents.

1. dcm refusing to follow my sick care policies in my contract & bringing infant with a high fever & being upset that I would not take care of her, because her job was more important.
2. dcm & another dcd not picking up on time, when they were not even working.
3. payment issue with dcm not paying on time

Other than those isolated incidents, I've had great families and have a very low turnover rate. Most dcks start with me as infants and stay until they age out at 10-12 yo.

[Laurel]

I answered in bold above.



I think that terming happens to two main reasons.

#1. The provider was NOT very good at interviewing and choosing families that are a good fit for her (or him) the program and/or in general. If you try to make a bad or less than good relationship work, whether in person and/or business, we all know it usually ends up bad.

#2. The family either lied about something (behavior, beliefs, routines etc) or the family/child starts to act badly or in a way that is not desirable to the provider and the situation either festers and gets so bad it reaches the point of no return and terming becomes the ONLY option or the situation gets bad enough that the parent/child senses the providers distain or resentment and again ends up ending badly.

I think that ALOT of times terming happens simply because it is an easier out than letting things get bad...kwim?

I know a lot of providers (both in real life and on-line) that are not-so-great about enforcing policies and rules that they literally paint themselves into a corner and have NO choice but to term.

I also know a lot of providers who are super picky about whom they enroll and those providers seem to have the least amount of "term" situations.

Like I said above, I termed a lot in the beginning of this career BECAUSE I simply enrolled anyone who could fill the space. It took me a few years to realize I am interviewing the family for ME/MY program just as much, if not more than it was the family interviewing me.

If you want to really know the facts behind the reasons for terming, you need to look at the interview process as well as the strength of the provider's backbone and the consistency and expectations for policy enforcement.

That's my 2 cents.

I think picking the wrong families has a lot to do with it and also backbone issues are a real biggie. I also think that one's policies need to be reasonable.

What I see here and in real life are examples where a provider either cannot stand up for herself or the other extreme where every little thing seems to be a reason for being termed. Like the provider I know who is a hot head and even says that she has arguments with the parents and they leave.

I think a good training to have would be in interpersonal relationships as it applies to our business. I think you have to pick your battles, be flexible (but not a door mat), don't take everything personally (parents have bad days too), review your policies to make sure they are working and things like that.

Laurel

[Laurel]

1. How many years doing this? 4.5 years

2. How many times termed? Once that I did. A few that were mutual

3. What did you term for?

The one I did term for was becoming violent and very disrespectful. He moved on to a 2 provider home that had a married couple and I think he needed that male influence around. His dad was, well, not very nice.

I had one that was a school ager that didn't listen at all. I couldn't trust him walking to school. One day, he was messing around on the way there and was really late. DCM blamed me and my kids. I told her that my kids were told to go straight to school, no goofing off, and they did. They told him to keep up, but knew they would be in trouble if they didn't get to school. I helped her "see" that SAC was a good place for him to be. I should've know at the interview when he slid down my banister and she didn't say anything, but I thought hey, it's only 2 hours before school.

Another I had for 4 years-since a few months old. She became very bossy, stopped listening, throwing/spitting/hitting. We (well, I) tried to get her to stop, but without parents help it was really not working. Dcg lost privileges every day and she didn't care. I talked with the parents about it at the beginning, but knew they didn't want to hear it, so I stopped. I knew dcg would tell them everything anyway. One day they called to say they found other care-I had marked the calendar anyway and she had 10 days left before I was going to term.

Yep, the bannister was a dead give away. ::

I usually don't watch school agers but sometimes will if they are past clients or siblings of babies I am currently watching. I stopped watching one sibling who took off running in my kitchen, put his foot up on the gate that separates the kitchen and daycare room, and leaped over the fence like a horse jumping a hurdle! That wasn't all he did but that was the last straw. I was a bit hesitant because didn't want mom to maybe pull the baby. I just told her it wasn't working out doing school age and babies/toddlers together because their needs were different and I couldn't be two places and doing two things at once. She was fine. After all, he was the same at home. She knew the real story. Once she was in my house talking to me at pick up and he was crazy and she said "Wow, just like our house." She knew.

Laurel

[julie]

I answered in bold above.



I think that terming happens to two main reasons.

#1. The provider was NOT very good at interviewing and choosing families that are a good fit for her (or him) the program and/or in general. If you try to make a bad or less than good relationship work, whether in person and/or business, we all know it usually ends up bad.

#2. The family either lied about something (behavior, beliefs, routines etc) or the family/child starts to act badly or in a way that is not desirable to the provider and the situation either festers and gets so bad it reaches the point of no return and terming becomes the ONLY option or the situation gets bad enough that the parent/child senses the providers distain or resentment and again ends up ending badly.

I think that ALOT of times terming happens simply because it is an easier out than letting things get bad...kwim?

I know a lot of providers (both in real life and on-line) that are not-so-great about enforcing policies and rules that they literally paint themselves into a corner and have NO choice but to term.

I also know a lot of providers who are super picky about whom they enroll and those providers seem to have the least amount of "term" situations.

Like I said above, I termed a lot in the beginning of this career BECAUSE I simply enrolled anyone who could fill the space. It took me a few years to realize I am interviewing the family for ME/MY program just as much, if not more than it was the family interviewing me.

If you want to really know the facts behind the reasons for terming, you need to look at the interview process as well as the strength of the provider's backbone and the consistency and expectations for policy enforcement.

That's my 2 cents.

Totally agree. While related to your #2 though (in that a family starts behaving badly and getting worse), I have noticed a phenomenon that is a bit different in that it goes he same way almost every time, with almost all of my clients. So much that I can almost set my watch to it. I call it "end of the honeymoon" period.

It is a period that usually happens about 6 months-1 year in. Relatively awesome clients that have been consistent and wonderful all this time seem to get "too comfortable" or gain some sort of entitlement suddenly in this phenomenon. They ask a request that seems to come out of the blue and totally against policy (like a sudden reduction in fees for no good reason, no longer wanting to pay when their kid is sick on vacation, asking to send kid sick since they never have before, etc.). I respond with backbone, and how they reply generally determines the length of their stay here. Some have been extremely apologetic, and have carried on being great clients. Some have been grumpy, but passive aggressive for a bit, and they either elevate the grumpiness and try to bend other policies and eventually leave, or they snap out of it and go back to being great. A few worst case scenarios ended up in some huge disrespect and aggression/bullying and they got termed immediately. It's happened enough to me that I get pretty stressed around the 6month-1 year mark because I feel like I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop. Only two of two dozen families has not gone through this.

I have been working 3 years, and have termed 6 families. Two were due to aggression on the parent's part, one changed up her needs and I couldn't accommodate so just didn't continue the contract, one was a munchausen mom and I couldn't deal with all of the self-diagnoses, one brought their kid drugged and lied about it, and one called my bluff by threatening to find other care since I wouldn't give her what she wanted, so I gave her two weeks to do just that. They have all been in the last year and a half. Only one of them gave off red flags in the interview that I regretted ignoring. Otherwise, they went crazy at around the 6 month-1 year mark.

[Sunchimes]

I've been in business for 2 1/2 years and have termed twice. The first time, my first family had a new baby. After much agonizing, I termed the last child to enter care. I am only allowed 3 kids and someone had to go. That family is still friendly and I keep the little one now and then when grandma needs some time off. Sometimes, I invite her over for a playdate when I have an open day. She is a sweetheart and I'd love to have her back. But, she would only be one day a week and I'd just have to term her again if a FT came along. I don't want to make it hard on her.

The second one was just a drop in every other Saturday. When my main family went full time, I termed him because I didn't need to work 6 days a week any longer.

I've never had to term for problems.

[Willow]

I've been licensed 5 years now.

Termed twice.

First was for bouncing three checks, the equivalent of 6 weeks worth of work....all while continuing to live a lavish lifestyle. I simply wasn't a priority and was tired of my kindness being taken advantage of.

The second was in regards to a family who was chronically ill...frequent bouts with explosive diarrhea, hfmd, high fevers, nasty junky colds that lasted from the day they started to the day they left. She would put up a rip roaring fight any time she'd have to keep them home and the youngest was violent and out of control at many drop off and pick ups. When it got to the point where she was being verbally abusive and aggressive towards me sticking to my policies I finally had to let them go.


Keep in mind that while it may be suggested on the board to term for certain situations, there are loads of members here

[Evansmom]

I had my home daycare open for 5 years (but I just closed it).
I termed two families.
1 was my first family. It was before I knew better. DCM came in before I had my contract finished. I told her up front I was writing one and would have her sign it when it was done. She brought it back all marked up in red pen, crossing out things she wouldn't agree to and basically walking all over me. She was never here by 6pm when I close. Sometimes late as 8pm and not answering her phone when she was that late. She taught me a lot! Rough one for my first client but I never made those mistakes again!!

Second one was a super coddled DCB who's parents fawned over every pout, every mosquito bite, DCM texted me at least 5 times per day for months. DCB figured out he got A LOT of attention for complaining he had a bad day. His parents would even take him to buy a new toy after daycare if he cried that he was hurt or pushed or anything that day. DCB one day just started making up things that weren't happening here. I had a very small group, 3 kids, and knew what was going on. To put it simply parents believed him and not me. I couldn't work with parents who didn't trust me. At that time of terming DCB was making up stories of other children hurting him, what if he had started making up stories that I had hurt him?!?!??? That scarred me. I never felt safe in this business after that again.