Another Sleep Question About Co-sleepers

[littlemissmuffet]

Yes, but for us this is a business. It's our job to make sure the parents KNOW what they are signing up for. For them, they are scared and nervous to put their child in the care of someone they don't know. Sometimes things slip their mind. As I walk around on the tour I discuss EVERYTHING in each location, so when I'm talking about naptime I explain that we don't practice CIO, which generally the parents go "Oh, I know!" because I advertise that we are an AP based daycare.

NO! It's a PARENT'S RESPONSIBILITY to know who is caring for their child and how their child is being cared for. I don't care what the topic/issue is (naps, meals, play, pick ups, etc)... it's a parent's responsbility to ask questions, do research, etc.
I explain how I operate during an interview, yes - but unless I'm asked, I would never mention that I have children CIO - this is what is normal for me... I didn't even know about AP until very recently and it's not something that is commonly practiced at daycares here. I don't feel it's my responsibility to mention this to parents as it's the NORM.

[Patches]

Yes, but for us this is a business. It's our job to make sure the parents KNOW what they are signing up for. For them, they are scared and nervous to put their child in the care of someone they don't know. Sometimes things slip their mind. As I walk around on the tour I discuss EVERYTHING in each location, so when I'm talking about naptime I explain that we don't practice CIO, which generally the parents go "Oh, I know!" because I advertise that we are an AP based daycare.

Yes, and for them, it is their children. I still think it's a two way street. I know we are ALL human and things slip ALL of our minds but if it is THAT important to a parent they will bring it up. If they forget, they can ask later. As long as the lines of communication stay open between the parent and caregiver, then it should be fine. JMO

[Heidi]

From my parent handbook:

Placing babies to sleep in a crib or playpen when they are tired but still awake encourages peaceful (and self-controlled) sleep patterns, now and in the future. Holding, rocking, feeding or similar methods of movement to "help" an infant sleep only promotes dependence on a parent or caregiver and may create sleeping and soothing issues as your child matures. In a daycare setting, rocking an infant to sleep while supervising several others is not really feasible. We will work together to teach your baby “sleep skills” in a loving way.

I want to emphasize the last part, because there is a HUGE difference between CIO and sleep training. Never in all my years have I stuck a wide-awake infant in a bed, said "it's nap time", walked away, and left them crying for several hours. I've never, ever had to.

I'm not running a foreign orphanage here, where I have 40 babies to care for. But, no one child's needs are more important than anothers, nor are they more important than my own. We are a family, and everyone here counts. So, I gently teach them to sleep on their own, because that's what I've learned makes all of us the happiest in the long run.

Froggysox, I think you are an awesome lady, and I totally admire the labor-of-love you are doing. I could not do it, honestly. Also, I would not be allowed lay down with my bunch. It's against our regs here. Thankfully.....I don't even have to consider it. I don't know when I'd get anything else done. Naptime is when I clean, do my classwork, plan activities, and chill.

[youretooloud]

its always been against the rules to sleep train and CIO.

I was always taught that "sleep training" is NOT cry it out. Cry it out, is just cry it out. Sleep training is teaching a child that he or she can sleep by himself.

I am very AP too, but I think most (not all) babies with problems sleeping are because the parents created a sleep problem. I raised two kids who slept through the night by six weeks, and not once did I ever let them cry. Never. If they cried, I was in there right away. But, I never had a kid who would wake up two and three times a night. (or more)

Even with daycare kids, which I know is entirely different, all the babies just go to bed at the same time as every other kid in the house. They like to go to bed. They go to bed awake, they fall asleep, wake a few hours later, and are happy to be awake later on. It's not the same for them at home though... and Yes, I realize home and daycare are completely different. Home is a long night, mom is there, I get that. But, I still think most kids can be sleep trained from the beginning and without crying.

[blandino]

From my parent handbook:

Placing babies to sleep in a crib or playpen when they are tired but still awake encourages peaceful (and self-controlled) sleep patterns, now and in the future. Holding, rocking, feeding or similar methods of movement to "help" an infant sleep only promotes dependence on a parent or caregiver and may create sleeping and soothing issues as your child matures. In a daycare setting, rocking an infant to sleep while supervising several others is not really feasible. We will work together to teach your baby “sleep skills” in a loving way.

I want to emphasize the last part, because there is a HUGE difference between CIO and sleep training. Never in all my years have I stuck a wide-awake infant in a bed, said "it's nap time", walked away, and left them crying for several hours. I've never, ever had to.

I'm not running a foreign orphanage here, where I have 40 babies to care for. But, no one child's needs are more important than anothers, nor are they more important than my own. We are a family, and everyone here counts. So, I gently teach them to sleep on their own, because that's what I've learned makes all of us the happiest in the long run.

Yes !! That is exactly what we do. Couldn't have said it better.

[Heidi]

I really, really, have not read the research on the negative affects of crying. I probably should. I've seen a little-enough to know that some believe it harmful. But, how much crying are we talking about?

I don't understand the "no cry" position much at all. I respect it, but I don't "get" it. kwim?

Between any 2 extremes, there is usually a good balance. "No Cry" is one extreme to me, a Russian Orphanage is another.

I personally think babies need to cry sometimes, just like I do. For me, a "good cry" can be very cleansing. For babies, crying briefly can be the same way. It's also the main way they communicate what they need. Most caregivers can tell a hungry cry from a tired cry pretty quickly. And sometimes, it's a cleansing cry, too.

Why isn't a baby allowed to cry once in a while? Not hours of being ignored, but a few minutes of fussing to wind down for nap? Aren't they entitled to feel what they need to feel? Or are only "good" feelings allowed? What if a baby sees you eating a poptart, and cries for that? Give her the poptart? Ok...most APer's probably won't be eating poptarts....

But, sooner or later, you're going to say "No" to something, and sooner or later, kiddo isn't going to like that answer. I'd much prefer to teach my kids that sometimes, you don't get what you want (or even need), and sometimes, it's okay to cry about it, but heck...you're still ok.

I make it very clear to my dcp's about what I do here. This is something I've added to my handbook, because honestly, 22 years ago when I started this, it wasn't even a consideration. But, over the years it has come up, and I want parents to know that if they choose me, they'll get a whole lot of wonderful, but they are not getting AP parenting. So, they can either teach their child to sleep independently, or the tough-love will happen here.

[MotherNature]

Personally, I ask the parents about their family's routines & discuss what our routine here looks like & see if we're a match or could be with a little work. I'm an AP-er too, & cosleep w/ my 2 year old. I also would be furious if a provider left my son to CIO, but I would've asked the question from the get-go. If their beliefs were not in line with mine, I'd thank them for their time & keep looking.

[nannyde]

In my daycare, same thing. We all nap in the same room. Me with all the babies so I can provide them all touch, and what they need, the toddlers on the outskirts, and the older kids on the outside areas.

I can't imagine doing that for a living. I dig my naptime. I love being able to relax, visit on the phone, check my boards, and watch my shows.

I put my whole crew to bed at the same time with fresh diapers, full belly, tired body, WIDE AWAKE, after a squeeze and a lovin... then lights out! Pitch black dark room.... Within five minutes they are all zoinked out and sleep like babies. I check the nursery about every ten minutes and they sleep right through it.

There's no amount of money that would pay me to be in the same room for nap. By the time they go down I'm ready for a BIG break.

I couldn't do what you do for a day much less for a living. I would go crazy and be bored out of my mind. I live in a state that doesn't require that we watch kids sleep in the same room. We are required to provide careful supervision at all times but we decide what that is.

I love nap and I love rested kids.

[youretooloud]

I put my whole crew to bed at the same time with fresh diapers, full belly, tired body, WIDE AWAKE, after a squeeze and a lovin..


There's no amount of money that would pay me to be in the same room for nap. By the time they go down I'm ready for a BIG break.

Yep...they all nap at the same time, then I go chill out alone in another room.

[Lawson2]

I am not for or against AP, I believe to each their own and it is none of my business how anyone parents. With that being said...
I have an acquaintance who is an AP parent. She co-sleeps and breast-feeds her 5 year old daughter. She is very judgmental and very quick to "correct" the way other people parent (including me). She is always preaching to me about some parenting advice she has read in an article or book. What I should and shouldn't be doing.... So, she basically throws AP parenting down my throat. Yet, she complains she never gets a break. She has to go to bed when her daughter does and sneak out when she falls asleep. She also complains about getting kicked every night and not getting a good night sleep. If they go out for a night, their child is anxious and will wait up until they get home (so she ends up staying up til 12am). These are statements out of this mother's mouth, not mine. She also sends me articles on how detrimental crying it out is to a child's health.
Now, I have been watching children for 15 years. Years ago (long before I had my own child), I would see kids who would sleep like a charm. We would read stories and I would give them a hug goodnight- and that would be it. Then I would sit for kids that had no bedtime routine. It was a disaster. So I knew that when I had my own child, I would let them cry it out and put them on a routine. I did that with my son and he sleeps great! Putting him on a sleep routine was not some horrific, traumatic event. When he was old enough, we let him fuss a bit and he would eventually fall asleep (no, this was not hours on end). He sleeps well for us, sitters, and his Grandparents. I think this is a lot healthier/less traumatic than the women whose daughter has a breakdown if she is left alone.
I actually stopped being friends with her because she was too overbearing. Also, her daughter wasn't enjoyable to be around. The girl would cry/ cross her arms/ storm away in a huff and the mom would chase her around asking, "what's wrong honey" every 5 minutes on the playground.
I have no other experience with AP parents, so I am not sure what is the norm? I just do what feels right and what I have learned (hands on) throughout the years. I take all parenting articles with a grain of salt...

[sahm1225]

I really, really, have not read the research on the negative affects of crying. I probably should. I've seen a little-enough to know that some believe it harmful. But, how much crying are we talking about?

I don't understand the "no cry" position much at all. I respect it, but I don't "get" it. kwim?

Between any 2 extremes, there is usually a good balance. "No Cry" is one extreme to me, a Russian Orphanage is another.

I personally think babies need to cry sometimes, just like I do. For me, a "good cry" can be very cleansing. For babies, crying briefly can be the same way. It's also the main way they communicate what they need. Most caregivers can tell a hungry cry from a tired cry pretty quickly. And sometimes, it's a cleansing cry, too.

Why isn't a baby allowed to cry once in a while? Not hours of being ignored, but a few minutes of fussing to wind down for nap? Aren't they entitled to feel what they need to feel? Or are only "good" feelings allowed? What if a baby sees you eating a poptart, and cries for that? Give her the poptart? Ok...most APer's probably won't be eating poptarts....

But, sooner or later, you're going to say "No" to something, and sooner or later, kiddo isn't going to like that answer. I'd much prefer to teach my kids that sometimes, you don't get what you want (or even need), and sometimes, it's okay to cry about it, but heck...you're still ok.

I make it very clear to my dcp's about what I do here. This is something I've added to my handbook, because honestly, 22 years ago when I started this, it wasn't even a consideration. But, over the years it has come up, and I want parents to know that if they choose me, they'll get a whole lot of wonderful, but they are not getting AP parenting. So, they can either teach their child to sleep independently, or the tough-love will happen here.

Love this!!!

[lovemykidstoo]

I am not for or against AP, I believe to each their own and it is none of my business how anyone parents. With that being said...
I have an acquaintance who is an AP parent. She co-sleeps and breast-feeds her 5 year old daughter. She is very judgmental and very quick to "correct" the way other people parent (including me). She is always preaching to me about some parenting advice she has read in an article or book. What I should and shouldn't be doing.... So, she basically throws AP parenting down my throat. Yet, she complains she never gets a break. She has to go to bed when her daughter does and sneak out when she falls asleep. She also complains about getting kicked every night and not getting a good night sleep. If they go out for a night, their child is anxious and will wait up until they get home (so she ends up staying up til 12am). These are statements out of this mother's mouth, not mine. She also sends me articles on how detrimental crying it out is to a child's health.
Now, I have been watching children for 15 years. Years ago (long before I had my own child), I would see kids who would sleep like a charm. We would read stories and I would give them a hug goodnight- and that would be it. Then I would sit for kids that had no bedtime routine. It was a disaster. So I knew that when I had my own child, I would let them cry it out and put them on a routine. I did that with my son and he sleeps great! Putting him on a sleep routine was not some horrific, traumatic event. When he was old enough, we let him fuss a bit and he would eventually fall asleep (no, this was not hours on end). He sleeps well for us, sitters, and his Grandparents. I think this is a lot healthier/less traumatic than the women whose daughter has a breakdown if she is left alone.
I actually stopped being friends with her because she was too overbearing. Also, her daughter wasn't enjoyable to be around. The girl would cry/ cross her arms/ storm away in a huff and the mom would chase her around asking, "what's wrong honey" every 5 minutes on the playground.
I have no other experience with AP parents, so I am not sure what is the norm? I just do what feels right and what I have learned (hands on) throughout the years. I take all parenting articles with a grain of salt...

Shoot, 5 years old and still breastfeeding? UGH!

I have a couple of dcf's that say that they "have" to lay with their almost 3 year olds to get them to fall asleep. I'm really sorry, but I don't understand it. I was with my children from the moment I opened my eyes until the moment I shut my eyes, so the 6 hours of sleep a night that I got, I wanted my bed to myself. Call me selfish.

[Jewels]

I believe sometimes there is nothing else you can do, I tell the story of my son, and I believe that cio can be prevented, it can be parent error.. In my case with my son it was our error, he was 4 days old when he started projectile vomiting, no wet diapers, but still nursing, my first baby, we had to bring him in, after everything he just had a bad Case of reflux, it was bad though in his tummy scan, he was puking up everything, and very dehydrated, they didn't was to do Meds right away, they wanted us to keep him upright, which if he wasn't He would scream if layed flat, but we struggled getting this tiny baby to sleep, we tried the carseat, a sling thing for crib, I tried holding him up so he could sleep, but then I could crying, and he would n't sleep, we were so miserable, we then went out looking for a good swing, his car seat made him spit and cry really bad, we needed somewhere he would be happy at night, we bought the really nice cradle swing(don't knock me on unsafe sleep, this baby could not lay flat, I'm not exaggerating his dehydration. We got it home and that night after eating, he feel asleep and slept his very first 2 hours, after 6 weeks he was on Meds and things got really good, by ten weeks when I had to go to work he slept through the night in the swing not swinging just laying, fast forward to him 5 months old and getting to big, and us thinking well time to move to the crib we did not know what we had done, we should have switched him when he got on meds, but didn't know any better, I thought it be easiest to just let him translation to laying in bed with me, he layed next to me for 30 minutes screaming his little head off, the while time with me holding him, he was so addicted to his swing, I finally put him in the swing and he feel right asleep, tried again the next night holding him after bottle..: screams.... Layed him in his crib... Screams.... Put him in the swing.. Out like a light, the next night we decided he had to figure it out, put him in that crib, we tried to go in and comfort him but he would get even more pissed, he cried for 2 hours, next night an hour, next night 10 minutes and after that right away and then he would sleep nowhere but his crib, so when we would travel with the pnp, he would sleep 2 hours of a night.... He's now 6 and a very happy super laid back calm 6 year old in kindergarten at a 3Rd grade reading level, reading small chapter books, the first Monday after we let him cio his daycare that day when I picked up....gave me the biggest smile and said "you fixed my baby!" I had never known quite how bad it was for her, she knew I wanted to be home with him,I hated bringing him to daycare, so she never really said that he never slept, but she said he slept his first really baby naps that day for her. You can bet with my 2nd, she was never placed in a swing for sleep, never once had to let her cry, I could always soothe her, but the only thing that soothed my son was his swing, I don't think he would have lasted in an ap daycare, I can guarantee she had to put him down once in a while when he was tired but refused to sleep.
I have never seen one as bad as my son, but my current 5 month old, was held for every nap and slept in a rocker thing at night, and hated the crib at first, for the first couple months he would take a few 15 minute naps in there then wake up screaming and I would get him but eventually he needed some longer naps, he was soothed very essay by touch, so I would also consider this sleep training not cio, I would rub his head he would close his eyes, then after a week of that I stopped touching and then would talk soothing so he knew I was there, which was enough, and then after that I would just last him down and leave fussed for a couple minutes then out, and then id wait a couple minutes when he would wake up after 20 crying, then he would be right back asleep, takes 2 hour naps now, a baby held all the time for naps at home has to be trained different at daycare. Training doesn't mean throwing them in a crib and letting them scream for 2 hours, I did it with my son, but my son was a well... Unique case... Sometimes cio is necessary.

[frgsonmysox]

I am not for or against AP, I believe to each their own and it is none of my business how anyone parents. With that being said...
I have an acquaintance who is an AP parent. She co-sleeps and breast-feeds her 5 year old daughter. She is very judgmental and very quick to "correct" the way other people parent (including me). She is always preaching to me about some parenting advice she has read in an article or book. What I should and shouldn't be doing.... So, she basically throws AP parenting down my throat. Yet, she complains she never gets a break. She has to go to bed when her daughter does and sneak out when she falls asleep. She also complains about getting kicked every night and not getting a good night sleep. If they go out for a night, their child is anxious and will wait up until they get home (so she ends up staying up til 12am). These are statements out of this mother's mouth, not mine. She also sends me articles on how detrimental crying it out is to a child's health.
Now, I have been watching children for 15 years. Years ago (long before I had my own child), I would see kids who would sleep like a charm. We would read stories and I would give them a hug goodnight- and that would be it. Then I would sit for kids that had no bedtime routine. It was a disaster. So I knew that when I had my own child, I would let them cry it out and put them on a routine. I did that with my son and he sleeps great! Putting him on a sleep routine was not some horrific, traumatic event. When he was old enough, we let him fuss a bit and he would eventually fall asleep (no, this was not hours on end). He sleeps well for us, sitters, and his Grandparents. I think this is a lot healthier/less traumatic than the women whose daughter has a breakdown if she is left alone.
I actually stopped being friends with her because she was too overbearing. Also, her daughter wasn't enjoyable to be around. The girl would cry/ cross her arms/ storm away in a huff and the mom would chase her around asking, "what's wrong honey" every 5 minutes on the playground.
I have no other experience with AP parents, so I am not sure what is the norm? I just do what feels right and what I have learned (hands on) throughout the years. I take all parenting articles with a grain of salt...

Thats not normal AP parenting. The only one who still co sleeps with us is our 13 month old. All my other kids (8, 6, 4, 3) sleep on their own, at their bed time. Responding appropriately is NOT the same as dismissive parenting.

I should also clarify I don't actually lay down and sleep with my kids. I lay with the babies (or rather sit) while they lie around me. When everyone is asleep I get up and eat, clean, ect.

Yes, AP kids tend to take longer to sleep through the night. Biologically speaking many studies have shown kids are not ready to sleep through the night until 2 years old or so, and even adults don't sleep through the night. I know I get up to pee or get a drink a few times myself. Babies need that too. An AP child will learn to self soothe over the first 2 years and then be on par with their peers who were sleep trained. At 18 months my kids stop waking to nurse. At 2 they move to their own bed, and if ready, their own room.

I'm actually extremely strict and don't allow my children to be rude, disrespectful, ect. Being AP does not mean you aren't strict.

Shoot, 5 years old and still breastfeeding? UGH!

I have a couple of dcf's that say that they "have" to lay with their almost 3 year olds to get them to fall asleep. I'm really sorry, but I don't understand it. I was with my children from the moment I opened my eyes until the moment I shut my eyes, so the 6 hours of sleep a night that I got, I wanted my bed to myself. Call me selfish.

Why ugh? 5 years old is not too old to nurse. This is a great article I think everyone should read.

http://www.kathydettwyler.org/detwean.html

[frgsonmysox]

When I first started out parenting I didn't feel right. I wasn't parenting the way I felt best, but the way my family and my husbands family told us was best.

When our daughter was born, she was born screaming and didn't stop for 8 months. She had severe reflux, colic, and FTT. Prior to this I was super ANTI co sleeping. I had only heard negatives about it.

When she was 6 weeks old, my husband was deployed, I had extreme post partum depression, and I was EXHAUSTED. I fell asleep one night nursing her sitting up. I woke a few minutes later and she had rolled out of my arms and on to the bed. I freaked out. I started researching because I knew I would lose my mind, and everything came back to co-sleeping. So I bit the bullet. That very first night she slept, for the first time, for more than an hour or so. She started sleeping 3 hour stretches that first night, and over the next 7 months she got better and better. For the first 2 years of her life she was held nearly non stop, she would have panic attacks when we went out in public, if anyone was near her she didn't know.

I worried and worried that my daughter was never going to be able to function in public. But I kept reading Dr. Sears and he kept telling me to follow my instincts and my instincts said to keep doing what I felt was right and to listen to my daughter.

Now she is 6. She is super sociable, extremely sweet (we call her "little mama"), and the teachers tell me they have never had a sweeter or more helpful student. She has remained on "green card" for two years straight. She loves going out in public, and although she still needs mommy and daddy cuddles those first few years of responding to her every need have made her a very independent girl. I truly believe she would not be who she is had we parented differently and left her to deal with that all alone.


My third child solidified my NEED to co sleep. He was born with fluid in his lungs. At a few weeks old he had his first major apnea episode. Over the next few weeks they came more and more frequently and he was placed on an apnea monitor. That first apnea episode occurred in the middle of the night. After nearly half a minute I started rubbing him, and trying to encourage him to breathe. It took almost another 30 seconds before I could. That was not the last apnea episode my husband and I had to encourage breathing again. Had he been in his own bed he would have most likely succumbed to "sids".


My second child brought me to the AP life style. My third child solidified it.