Pretending and Violence

[Blackcat31]

I don't disagree with you there.

I was merely debating it's touted *necessity* and the theory that what is old practice is always relevant and best

Oh okay, gottcha! Well, I definitely agree there! I don't buy into that theory either.

Heck my Dad used to tell me my parents dipped my pacifier into brandy to help with teething. ::

[Heidi]

Oh okay, gottcha! Well, I definitely agree there! I don't buy into that theory either.

Heck my Dad used to tell me my parents dipped my pacifier into brandy to help with teething. ::

That explains so much! I'm sure my parents did the same thing....::::

[Michael]

I personally believe this is something boys have been doing since the beginning of time, its who they are, its so normal, its boys being boys, as long as no one is really getting hurt, I allow all their imaginative super hero play, I don't have play guns, but think those are fine also, I remember playing all that with my brother, girls play pretend house boys plays super heroes, wrestling, cops robbers, this has been going on forever, they dont even need to have video games to pretend this, I have a few boys that I know have no video games at home, and pretend fight all the time, I think its sad its viewed as something wrong, its normal needed development for them..........dont get me wrong when the boys are in a pile on the floor, and being loud boys and the girls are all at the table drawing, sometimes I wish for an all girl daycare.

I agree with this. I was playing with BB guns at 6 and was always into the Hunter-gatherer types of play. I am not a violent person so I am wondering what the fear is. I also believe children should behave and follow the rules and if a provider wants to remove things which they view as violent, from their daycare, it is their decision.

One would think that all the concern for this over the last 20 years would have made a difference but look at what the public wants in their movies. I see more violence and guns in films now then in any time previously.

Heck my Dad used to tell me my parents dipped my pacifier into brandy to help with teething. ::

Well???? Do you still like brandy? :confused:

[Jewels]

I don't disagree with you there.

I was merely debating it's touted *necessity* and the theory that what is old practice is always relevant and best

im not talking about old "practice", I'm saying that from way back when, you put a group of young boys together in a room , and naturally most start the imaginary play, it happens naturally, my son as well used to never really wrestle or pretend to much, but once he started playing with alot more boys it just came out in him, I think its our jobs as parents to guide them as to when its okay and when its not, my son knows that he can tackle and wrestle with dad, but his dad has taught him that its only okay with him, he doesn't try to tackle mom or girls, if your told stop, you stop, and its not appropriate in school. I think people are just looking for reasons things happen. Now I have one boy in my care who can take it too far, he seems to enjoy when people get hurt, and he takes the superhero play to far, and he concerns me, and I can tell he will have problems next year in school, and I watch him very close when the boys are playing, he has a lack of empathy....and you could completley stop this boy from wrestling or pretending he's a bad guy, but is this going to gain him empathy? is this going to stop his like of hurting people? I don't think so. But my other little boys, their play is so young and innocent. Do parents ever take boys and say "okay boys when you play make sure you wrestle and fight, thats what boys are supposed to do, it was in that old book I read you" I meant nothing like that, I meant boys have always naturally played that way, as girls play house naturally.

[Lyss]

I agree with Jewels. maybe not for the same reason or for deeper reasons but I too allow my DCK's to play guns. Whether it be cops/robbers or cowboys at the OK Corral or even an infantryman in the army.

I don't allow games that are outright violent and certainly don't allow them to emmulate the highway sniper or the cop gone rogue type play but a goood ol' shootout as imaginary play is definitely allowed.

Toy guns/gun play are no more the cause of violence than toy kitchen sets are the cause of obesity.

Psychologist and author Glen David Skoler has argued that games involving toy guns and swords most often occur as boys are transitioning from the “amoral, self-centered, and unsocialized” world of toddlers. He calls this an “intermediary level of moral functioning,” where boys experiment with “games of good guys vs. bad guys and epic struggles between good and evil.”

(http://jonathanturley.org/2011/03/08...-and-toy-guns/)

I also think that comapring gun play from our childhoods to things like car seat safety are two COMPLETELY different types of truths.

Car seat laws changed because kids died and we now have the knowledge to do things in a safer manner.

Prohibiting gun play in childhood does not stop the issues we currently have with guns.

I allow my kids to play this way as well.

For me I look at like if no weapon/gun play in DC or schools for young children was making a difference then wouldn't there be less violence in schools not more like we seem to be having? I remember being allowed to play good guys/bad guys in DC and school but my brother who is 6 years younger (now 24) was not and I don't think things/people have gotten any safer, its not about the imaginative play its a whole other can of worms. Not very scientific I know but it's how I look at it so it's OK at my house. I know not everyone feels that way in DC and I respect whatever view they take on it when I am in their home

My DCKs play all kinds of good vs evil scenarios and frequently it ends with some in "jail" and then that kid has to do something nice to get out. To me its learning morality and boundaries, right and wrong, and even confidence (standing up for what they think is right). I don't think my DCK that loves playing pirate is gonna head on over to Somalia someday. I do keep an ear out and if it gets out of hand I'll step in and we'll talk about it together. If they were playing it to really hurt someone or becoming completely obsessed with a weapon then yes I would talk to them and parents but general imaginative play I think it part of learning.

[Jewels]

I agree with this. I was playing with BB guns at 6 and was always into the Hunter-gatherer types of play. I am not a violent person so I am wondering what the fear is. I also believe children should behave and follow the rules and if a provider wants to remove things which they view as violent, from their daycare, it is their decision.

One would think that all the concern for this over the last 20 years would have made a difference but look at what the public wants in their movies. I see more violence and guns in films now then in any time previously.



Well???? Do you still like brandy? :confused:

Yes and if there were more men on this site, I'm guessing this topic would be much greater debated. Because all men were once boys, and they all understand better than any women, I still watch my husband and his friends tackle each other, and they are all in their 30's. And they are amazing husbands, and fathers, and hard working guys(well I guess truly I can only speak for my own husband.)

[Starburst]

Well, it also depends on what they are doing when they are re-enacting the violence are they pretending to save someone? are they pretending to both be villians? If they are more into the "superhero" part of it try asking open ended questions like "how do super heros save people?" "other than weapons and super powers, what are some ways that they can help people?". "what is a hero/heroine?", "What is a superhero/superheroine?", "can normal people be heros/heroines? Why (or why not)?" you can explain to them that their are lots of real heros who do help people without violence (fire-fighters, doctors, cops {they don't always use guns})

It's one thing if they take turns being the villain but if one is always the villain and is always more agressive- I would seriously talk to the parents. But while more little boys who do superhero play do usually wind up normal there are a few weirdos out there who don't grow out of it- there are actual grown up people who try to be superheros! The police hate them because they tend to get in the way of real and serious investigations, most of them never studied AJ and I guess they couldn't cut it out to be cops. There was one guy that was actualy child care worker and when his "secret identy was revield" he lost his job.

http://natgeotv.com.au/videos/taboo/a-real-life-superhero-CF082646.aspx

-These people actualy tick me off because they think they are helping but it looks like they are really ****y and full of themselves . It looks like they are just making things more complicated and getting in the way of police business.

I mean when I was growing up we used to rough-house and stuff just joking around but it is actually proven that many children who are exposed to violent actions not only immitate violent behavior but they also tend to try to step it up and become more creative with improvising (The Bobo experiment- now considered unethical).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YclZBhn40hU

One thing I really cannot stand though (when I was working at one home daycare) was when kids would be outside playing 'Dora' (I never liked her) or 'Superheros' and start shouting "HELP!" or "I'm hurt I need help" it just freaks me out to think that if a neighbor heard that and thought the child was in danger they would call 911 (not good for the provider or the kids) or that if they were playing and someone got hurt we would think they were playing ('Boy who cried wolf' syndrom). One of my ECE teachers suggested for that to look into doing a field trip to the local PD or having an officer come to do a 'career day' and explain why you should never pretend to cry for 'help' if it's not an emergency. So maybe look into something like this to have them explain that cops don't only use weapons but also use their smarts to help people- and that people who hurt other people go to jail (they will probably find an age appropraite way to explain it to the children if you let them know the situation you are having). I would definetly also try to make sure parents understand that you do not allow any type of toy weapons, violent games (video games/toys), or actions/behaviors in your program.

BTW I am NOT into superheros (okay maybe I did like the Powerpuff Girls) and I told my fiance that when we have kids and I have my daycare I don't want any guns or really any superhero things and I don't want them to put themselves in danger thinking they are super strong or can fly (some younger kids do not yet understand the difference between fantacy and reality). Also it one thing if that child's parents let them play with guns at home but you will have children from multiple backgrounds and beliefs in your program and many do not want their child exposed to any type of violence (even pretend) and it is easier to respect their wishes by just not allowing that than allowing it because the other daycare parent allows it at their home.

This is actually a big debate between us because he does want a gun for protection and I keep telling him it could effect my business: liability insurance? low enrollment if parents find out? Because of licensing regulations it can't even be left loaded or in easy access- So whats the point of having it protection!

Then he tried to get me to watch the Batman movies and I explained I don't like superhero movies and he actually made a good point: "Batman doesn't have any super powers. He has a few tools in his utility belt but not really much that he uses as weapons and he has a car so he doesn't fly(even though he is alter-ego is part bird :confused. He does fight when he needs to but he normally tries to think and talk his way out of trouble" (in most of the cartoons anyway).

[lovemykidstoo]

I don't have play guns in my daycare, because I just don't have them. Really didn't make a conscious effort not to have them. Sometimes the kids will make their own weapons per se with the big legos and stuff and pretend cops robbers kind of thing. We played cowboys and indians, charlies angels with pretend guns when we were kids and we didn't turn out to be mass murderers.

My thoughts; I don't believe that normal play with pretend weapons makes a mass murderer just as I don't believe a boy playing with a barbie will make him a gay man or a boy or girl playing with the kitchen set will make him obese either. There are so many other factors that makes a person lose their mind and take someones life. I really don't think a normal minded person grows up and does that and blames it on when they were 3 and played with another child by pointing their finger at them and saying bang.

[saved4always]

I am in the toddler room at a center. The violent play seems to happen most with my older toddlers that are near 3 yo. I tell them that there are no guns or shooting or fighting allowed in Miss **'s room. If they say they are allowed at home, I tell them that they can play that at home then if mommy and daddy are ok with it, but it is still not okay in Miss **'s room. It takes ALOT of reminding when they are used to playing that at home. I try really hard to stop it because the parents of the younger toddlers do not like when their little ones come home using their fingers and toys as guns. And they will definitely tell me about it, if it happens.

[Blackcat31]

Well???? Do you still like brandy? :confused:

Actually no. I am not really a drinker at all. Maybe I had my fill while I was a toddler and teething.

[Scout]

I personally believe this is something boys have been doing since the beginning of time, its who they are, its so normal, its boys being boys, as long as no one is really getting hurt, I allow all their imaginative super hero play, I don't have play guns, but think those are fine also, I remember playing all that with my brother, girls play pretend house boys plays super heroes, wrestling, cops robbers, this has been going on forever, they dont even need to have video games to pretend this, I have a few boys that I know have no video games at home, and pretend fight all the time, I think its sad its viewed as something wrong, its normal needed development for them..........dont get me wrong when the boys are in a pile on the floor, and being loud boys and the girls are all at the table drawing, sometimes I wish for an all girl daycare.

My sons play like this all the time....boys do this and I think it is normal behavior for them. I do not like toy guns but, I let my boys bang their action figures together all day long if they want! They play rough...they are boys. If I see it getting out of hand I separate them.

[rmc20021]

I appreciate all who have replied and certainly didn't expect so much debate...I was just concerned maybe I was overly sensitive to this subject, and wanted to know if others have this issue, and if so how they dealt with it.

I totally do not feel that by allowing kids to play this way creates or encourages bad behaviors or mass murders or anything of that sort.

My concern is simply because the schools and media make such a big deal of it and don't hesitate to suspend kids as young as kindergarden, for even acting as though they are using a weapon...I feel it's necessary to curb those behaviors before they get into a situation where the tolerance is zero.

Now, seeing how so many people have different opinions, I also feel that there would be many parents who may object to allowing their child to be in a situation where they are playing with weapon type toys and showing those types of agressive behaviors, even if it's harmless play.

And there are, I'm sure just as many parents who feel there's nothing wrong with it. As providers, we can't please everyone so I feel it's best to go with the option of not allowing it, and if the parents want to allow it at home, then that's their choice.

If it came down to which parent would be more likely to pull their child from a daycare, I believe it would be the one who didn't want their child playing that way, over a parent who was upset because the provider didn't allow their child to 'pretend' shooting somone.

[Evansmom]

I agree that boys will be boys but I do not allow words like kill or murder or any other violent wording like that. I encourage the boys to instead say "I'll get you" or something like that instead. I didn't start out feeling that play fighting was ok but after having sons and working in this field for 17 plus years I changed my mind.

So I have a question for you all. While interviewing, do those of you who allow play guns in your daycares bring this up with parents of boys? Because I know some parents who wouldn't like their children playing with guns.

I'm asking bc I've never thought of this before and I'm interviewing a family with a little boy tomorrow.

[lovemykidstoo]

I think that is what is so great about this board, that everyone can have their own opinion. I find it so interesting to see what everyones views are. It's fantastic that we all respect each other and can do this without anyone getting mad. I really don't think there is any right or wrong answer, it's just a matter of perception. Good thread!

[nanglgrl]

I personally believe this is something boys have been doing since the beginning of time, its who they are, its so normal, its boys being boys, as long as no one is really getting hurt, I allow all their imaginative super hero play, I don't have play guns, but think those are fine also, I remember playing all that with my brother, girls play pretend house boys plays super heroes, wrestling, cops robbers, this has been going on forever, they dont even need to have video games to pretend this, I have a few boys that I know have no video games at home, and pretend fight all the time, I think its sad its viewed as something wrong, its normal needed development for them..........dont get me wrong when the boys are in a pile on the floor, and being loud boys and the girls are all at the table drawing, sometimes I wish for an all girl daycare.

Exactly! The last paragraph of this article is very interesting regarding this type of play.

http://news.yahoo.com/analysis--disciplining-children-over-fake-guns-may-be-wrong-lesson-195101197.html