Debate About Higher Education

[Crystal]

Professionalmom....let's start by saying, I never claimed to "KNOW EVERYTHING" my goodness, what is this, high school?

So, you're right, YOU didn't earn $2 per hour. If you try to get clientele and run an 8-5 business, it's not going to happen. Those are the hours parents are generally at work....they need care from minimum of 7-6, generally. So, you ended up going for the more varied hours and would have only a few children at a time, working around the clock, so it doesn't add up to $2-3 per hour. BUT, most providers do have set hours, where they have the whole group together at one time, so THEY do and are making more than $2 per hour. I suppose I could have broken it down, that we don't all have 10 kids, but I was just generalizing, as most of us have somewhere between 6-14 kids...I have 14. So, I was kinda averaging it out, to make it simple....although you see I did also say 5 kids.... never said everyone has 10 kids or everyone makes $20 per hour.

Also,I have to say, anybody who runs a childcare program needs to treat it as any other business. You set up a budget....if you aren't making enough money to purchase supplies, etc. you change your budget and buy what the program can afford....just as with a household budget....you don't buy new markers and paint if you cannot afford them. Why run your business into the gorund and end up losing money simply to purchase supplies that we can live without.

One request, if you want to COMPLETELY derail a thread that has a legitimite discussion occurring, please start a new thread. This thread was about higher education.

[professionalmom]

Professionalmom....let's start by saying, I never claimed to "KNOW EVERYTHING" my goodness, what is this, high school?

So, you're right, YOU didn't earn $2 per hour. If you try to get clientele and run an 8-5 business, it's not going to happen. Those are the hours parents are generally at work....they need care from minimum of 7-6, generally. So, you ended up going for the more varied hours and would have only a few children at a time, working around the clock, so it doesn't add up to $2-3 per hour. BUT, most providers do have set hours, where they have the whole group together at one time, so THEY do and are making more than $2 per hour. I suppose I could have broken it down, that we don't all have 10 kids, but I was just generalizing, as most of us have somewhere between 6-14 kids...I have 14. So, I was kinda averaging it out, to make it simple....although you see I did also say 5 kids.... never said everyone has 10 kids or everyone makes $20 per hour.

Also,I have to say, anybody who runs a childcare program needs to treat it as any other business. You set up a budget....if you aren't making enough money to purchase supplies, etc. you change your budget and buy what the program can afford....just as with a household budget....you don't buy new markers and paint if you cannot afford them. Why run your business into the gorund and end up losing money simply to purchase supplies that we can live without.

One request, if you want to COMPLETELY derail a thread that has a legitimite discussion occurring, please start a new thread. This thread was about higher education.

First, I did not derail this thread, if that was what you were saying. If it wasn't directed at me, then I apologize.

Second, I did not mean YOU were acting like YOU know everything. It was a generalization of people who assume that a provider makes $2 per hour for $6 kids and that equals out to $12 per hour and then don't seem to understand why daycare providers claim that they are so underpaid.

Sure, you may have 14 kids. But do you have an assistant? If so, then you are operating at a ratio of 7 kids per adult and you are not pocketing the amount from all 14 kids because you have an employee to pay our of those earnings. If you are watching 14 kids all by yourself, then that's another story because in every jurisdiction I have heard about, that is way over the legal ratio. But I doubt it's just you because I doubt you'd go over state law like that.

Actually, I was not being irresponsible with my budget. I had supplies like paper, ink, etc. But I also had expenses like utilities. Now I know some people will jump on my case saying, "deducting part of your utilities is a bonus of this job". If I worked out of the home, no one would be there to turn on lights, flush the toilet, use water to wash hands, etc. for at least 9 hours each day. But with the daycare, our utility bills went up significantly. Why? Because the house was "in use". So, yes, I have every right to deduct that added expense from my income, as well as other items. There is a "cost to doing business". I cut corners where ever possible. I was NEVER irresponsible in my budgeting or spending. But I still lost a big chunk to "running the business", even though I am a pro at squeezing a penny until it bleeds.

As for the hours I kept, I tried to find regular day clients that were M-F. But with the economy, I would have only had 3 kids (with 1 or 2 of them PT). I had to allow for more hours. It wasn't like I had 1 kid for 4 hours, then another. Many of the schedules overlapped, but some were midday kids, not really days or evenings. So I couldn't even do a first shift and a second shift. Granted there are many providers that do have 4-6 kids at one time and only work 50 hours a week. But, with the economy the way it is right now, many providers, especially in MI have had to extend their hours and STILL do not have a full rooster!

So, it's easy to make it "look" like easy money doing daycare (on paper at least). But the reality of it is not so cut and dry. And it's not the same for everyone (5 DC kids all on the same M-F 7am - 5pm schedule). That's not the case for every provider. If it were then I would agree with what you said about it being more than $2 per hour.

What I took offense with was a provider making it sound like being a provider is an easy way to make a really great income when, in most cases, that is NOT the case. If it is for you, then great! Good for you.

Finally, I was not personally attacking you. I was just explaining that the math YOU provided was not the entire picture. Like you said, not all providers have 10 kids. Most state regulations actually limit it to 6-8 kids per adult. So you were exaggerating. Then you made the assumption that the kids were all there for basically the same amount of time, days, and hours. Then you failed to take "business expenses" into account, which is something employees in other businesses do NOT have to pay for (the corporation does). So, it's not like your get $2 per hour per kid in your pocket. But that's how you made it sound.

[missnikki]

But we do not care for ONE child. Say $2 per hour PER child, 5 children is $10 per hour, 10 children is $20 per hour. This isn't a piece work job, it's a group factor. Sure, if you were caring for ONE child, it wouldn't be worth it at $2 per hour, and you wouldn't charge that.....geez, even my daughter who babysits charges $10 per hour.

Derailed.

Anyway, as a provider with a degree, I find that my experience plays a stronger role in my success as a provider, and the fact that I have education allows me to legally keep my job as a director. That's it and that's that.
I've learned more researching things on my own and asking comrades in the field (like on this site) and by being a people person and communicating with parents, than I did in the "Child, Family, Community' class and the 'Children in a Multicultural Setting' class that are core requirements for a basic AA degree.
In all seriousness, I felt that a lot of those classes were full of obvious common sense. I met a lot of fellow care providers there, though, and have lifelong friendships from that school. I guess it was worth the time and expense for those reasons.

[Crystal]

Derailed.

Anyway, as a provider with a degree, I find that my experience plays a stronger role in my success as a provider, and the fact that I have education allows me to legally keep my job as a director. That's it and that's that.
I've learned more researching things on my own and asking comrades in the field (like on this site) and by being a people person and communicating with parents, than I did in the "Child, Family, Community' class and the 'Children in a Multicultural Setting' class that are core requirements for a basic AA degree.
In all seriousness, I felt that a lot of those classes were full of obvious common sense. I met a lot of fellow care providers there, though, and have lifelong friendships from that school. I guess it was worth the time and expense for those reasons.

Get your point on the derail, however I did not start the derail and I did attempt to keep it short....not go into a long, drawn out story that totally went off the original topic. Perhaps from now on I'll simply move the orginal derail to a new thread and start a new conversation on that new topic-then we can have two interesting and highly debatable topics to discuss


I agree that some of the courses that are required for an AA are basic common sense, but there are many, many things I learned that relate to the appropriate development of children, as well as to developmentally appropriate practices related to environment and "curriculum" that I NEVER could have gained through experience alone. I personally value BOTH education and experience, I have both. But I do know that it would have been much easier for me starting out had I first obtained some basic education about DAP and Child Developmet, aside from my brief experience with my own children before I started my business.

[Chickenhauler]

melskids...

You can get a degree without it costing you anything, if you qualify for Pell Grants and board of governor fee waiver. Student loans are more for those who cannot get the pell grant, and also need help paying for living exenses while they go to school. AND, if you do take out student loans, you do not pay it back until 6 months after you graduate, AND your payment is based on your income. If you would like more information about how to get the grant, please PM me.

As I said in previous post....there is a nationwide momentum right now for all providers to be required to have an education....it IS going to happen....it WILL be awhile, but why not start preparing for it now, rather than wait and then not be able to stay in business? THAT would be way more costly than going to school.

Let's talk about this in reality-even if you get a grant or a freebie, you're still paying for it. That money doesn't appear by magic. It comes from taxes that you and I pay (or debt the gov't goes into, which you and I will have to repay).

And if you get a grant, then you still have to either take night classes or close down your business (lost revenue) or hire someone to cover for you (add'l expense), then travel, your time, books, parking, etc.

And you have to ask yourself....how will this increase my revenue? Will I be able to command higher fees with this degree?

WOW! Do you really believe that your wife's responsibility to the children she cares for stops at changing diapers and wiping noses? I would hope that most providers take more responsibility than that and would like to think that they feel they are contributing to the overall development of the whole child and assisting them in developing the skills necessary to grow up socially responsible and contributing memebrs of society. In order to do so, there needs to be a deep understanding of the development of children and developmentally appropriate practices.

Really, you should give your wife more credit than that.

And to your wife who I know is a member here, please do not be offended by my response, I DO give you more credit than that, I have read your posts and it is clear that you care deeply about the children you work with.

Sorry I didn't list EVERY duty she does, but her main task is the insure that the children a safe, fed, clean and reasonably content. She's not teaching calculus, physics or chemistry.

While we're at it, since we're legislating that everyone have a degree in raising kids that comes in contact with them, why don't we start with the parents? Before you can have a child, you must have a college degree!

Why not make it the parents responsibility to teach their kids the basics of being a decent human being? Why are we as a society continually making every move possible to take that out of the parents hands?

My mother had nothing beyond high school education, and every one of my siblings (myself included) have started from the ground up, and been very successful, running our own business's. She raised us, not a daycare center or baby sitter.

Why should a home daycare operator be suddenly required to be a school teacher? And how can you compare a home daycare setting to that of a school teacher?

Heck, why not just teach school if a person has to get a degree? 6-1/2 to 7 hour days, every holiday off, 3 months in the summer off, and probably make more cash in the end. And you don't have to make or feed lunch to the kids, you just take them to the cafeteria and head for the lounge. Nor is there the investment or wear and tear on the home.

But we do not care for ONE child. Say $2 per hour PER child, 5 children is $10 per hour, 10 children is $20 per hour. This isn't a piece work job, it's a group factor. Sure, if you were caring for ONE child, it wouldn't be worth it at $2 per hour, and you wouldn't charge that.....geez, even my daughter who babysits charges $10 per hour.

Your daughter is a temp worker, not a regularly scheduled, every day service provider.

Even at $20 per hour, it's peanuts when you consider this isn't just labor, but space, supplies, materials, etc. For owning a business AND having to get a degree to continue operating that same business because some 'crat some where in some office thinks that suddenly, daycare providers are too stupid to do what they've been doing for decades, is pure silliness.

Let's put this in perspective....a construction laborer (you know, the guy with the little "slow" sign?) gets $20 an hour, and he doesn't hardly have to be literate, much less have a college degree, and his "capital investment" is a pair of jeans, boots, and shirt. The employer provides a hardhat and vest.

Let's be realistic....if the goobermint tries to ram this down daycare providers throats, you'll see many good providers either ignore it, go 'under the radar', or just plain quit.

Those that remain, their prices will rise to the point where EVERYONE will be on public assistance, because not even a 'good' job will pay enough to cover the daycare fees.

[Crystal]

Let's talk about this in reality-even if you get a grant or a freebie, you're still paying for it. That money doesn't appear by magic. It comes from taxes that you and I pay (or debt the gov't goes into, which you and I will have to repay). Okay, so I pay for it through my taxes. I'd have to pay those wether I went to school or not, so at least I gained something positive from paying them.

And if you get a grant, then you still have to either take night classes or close down your business (lost revenue) or hire someone to cover for you (add'l expense), then travel, your time, books, parking, etc. The majority of my courses were on-line, and I completed my school work at home during naptime. My books were paid for through my grants. My time, well, to me, it was very much worthwhile.


And you have to ask yourself....how will this increase my revenue? Will I be able to command higher fees with this degree? This increased my revenue in several ways...I am now able to advertise as a preschool and I have additional children who attend for preschool only, while school age children are at school-parents who value an educated teacher pay me $25 for 3 hours of my time for their children to attend my program. I was able to become a mentor teacher for the colleges, having student teachers placed in my program and I get paid for them to be here while I mentor them...they work for me 3 hours per day, I currently have three students. I was able to become a Environmental Raing Scale assessor for our R&R, they pay me $500 for each program assessment I conduct and I was hired as an Independent Consultant for Head Start, paid $50 hour to conduct assessments on their programs....HUGE increase in revenue, and I couldn't do any of it without my education.




Sorry I didn't list EVERY duty she does, but her main task is the insure that the children a safe, fed, clean and reasonably content. She's not teaching calculus, physics or chemistry. No, she's not teaching those things, but she holds the future in her hands. You made it sound like she does nothing but clean up after snotty kids all day.

While we're at it, since we're legislating that everyone have a degree in raising kids that comes in contact with them, why don't we start with the parents? Before you can have a child, you must have a college degree! Almost with you on that one...I wish there were some sort of standards for being a parent....unfortunately, that would not be something that could realistically be regulated.

Why not make it the parents responsibility to teach their kids the basics of being a decent human being? Why are we as a society continually making every move possible to take that out of the parents hands?
It is, and should be. No one said that we should be responsible for everything with these children, but I take a personal responsibility for what they are learning when they are with me, which, more often than not, is more time than they actually have with their parents because they are working....I am proud of my work and "my" children when they move on to school.

My mother had nothing beyond high school education, and every one of my siblings (myself included) have started from the ground up, and been very successful, running our own business's. She raised us, not a daycare center or baby sitter.
And, that's GREAT! I never said that you cannot be successful without a degree, I just think there are alot of advantages to having it....my biggest complaint about this whole issue is that many people consider it "just a piece of paper" when in reality, it is much more than that.

Why should a home daycare operator be suddenly required to be a school teacher? And how can you compare a home daycare setting to that of a school teacher? I think this really lies in what the provider wants for her program and her expectations of herself. My program is set up very much like a preschool, and that is what I wanted, and it's what my families want and appreciate.

Heck, why not just teach school if a person has to get a degree? 6-1/2 to 7 hour days, every holiday off, 3 months in the summer off, and probably make more cash in the end. And you don't have to make or feed lunch to the kids, you just take them to the cafeteria and head for the lounge. Nor is there the investment or wear and tear on the home.
Why? Because I don't want to work for someone else, AND, guess what? I couldn't make HALF of what I make if I worked for the school district. I grossed 6 figures last year....no way that would happen working in public schools.



Your daughter is a temp worker, not a regularly scheduled, every day service provider. So? If I had to hire someone to work for me, I would pay them more than $10 per hour. I paid my daughter $10 per hour to work for me all summer.....my sub makes $15 per hour.

Even at $20 per hour, it's peanuts when you consider this isn't just labor, but space, supplies, materials, etc. For owning a business AND having to get a degree to continue operating that same business because some 'crat some where in some office thinks that suddenly, daycare providers are too stupid to do what they've been doing for decades, is pure silliness.
Sure, but there are MANY perks to being self-employed as well. I don't pay for commute, meals out, a wardrobe for the job, etc. And, I don't think anyone feels that daycare providers are stupid, but what is wrong with having a higher education?

Let's put this in perspective....a construction laborer (you know, the guy with the little "slow" sign?) gets $20 an hour, and he doesn't hardly have to be literate, much less have a college degree, and his "capital investment" is a pair of jeans, boots, and shirt. The employer provides a hardhat and vest.

Yep. BUT, is he HAPPY with his work? I know I am, I wouldn't trade my career for anything.

Let's be realistic....if the goobermint tries to ram this down daycare providers throats, you'll see many good providers either ignore it, go 'under the radar', or just plain quit.

Those that remain, their prices will rise to the point where EVERYONE will be on public assistance, because not even a 'good' job will pay enough to cover the daycare fees.

I disagree. I charge one of the lowest rates in my area. It's not necessary to charge exorbitant fees to make a decent living and provide a valuable service....only the providers who get a big head because they went to school would raise their rates to the point of not being affordable at all. For those who choose to ignore it, they get what they get, just as those who choose to ignore licensing regs and get caught. For those who quit, simply because they are required to LEARN something new, well, then, maybe the field is better of without them.

I hope that clarifies for you.

[nannyde]

I hope that clarifies for you.
Why? Because I don't want to work for someone else, AND, guess what? I couldn't make HALF of what I make if I worked for the school district. I grossed 6 figures last year....no way that would happen working in public schools.

Don't you have to have a Bachelors degree to work as a teacher in the school district in California? Are you saying that you make twice that of a teachers aid? What position are you comparing yourself to that you would be qualified to take as someone with an Associate Degree?

[MommyMuffin]

Don't you have to have a Bachelors degree to work as a teacher in the school district in California? Are you saying that you make twice that of a teachers aid? What position are you comparing yourself to that you would be qualified to take as someone with an Associate Degree?

Sorry to be off topic but...Welcome back Nannyde!

[professionalmom]

This increased my revenue in several ways...I am now able to advertise as a preschool and I have additional children who attend for preschool only, while school age children are at school-parents who value an educated teacher pay me $25 for 3 hours of my time for their children to attend my program. I was able to become a mentor teacher for the colleges, having student teachers placed in my program and I get paid for them to be here while I mentor them...they work for me 3 hours per day, I currently have three students. I was able to become a Environmental Raing Scale assessor for our R&R, they pay me $500 for each program assessment I conduct and I was hired as an Independent Consultant for Head Start, paid $50 hour to conduct assessments on their programs....HUGE increase in revenue, and I couldn't do any of it without my education.

I couldn't make HALF of what I make if I worked for the school district. I grossed 6 figures last year....no way that would happen working in public schools.

Thank you so much for proving that simply providing a daycare service does not garner a hefty income. You gross 6 figures! Of course you do, you have a bunch of "side" businesses going on. You can take on a heck of a lot more kids because you have "assistants" that you don't have to pay for and are instead being paid to have them there to help out (students that you are mentoring). You are so right. If I wanted to branch out, mentor some students and get paid by the school to do so, I could take on an extra 6 kids. Then with the income from the six additional kids plus getting paid for being a mentor and not having to pay them - I'd be rollin' in the dough!

But I would bet if you take all those side businesses away, you would find yourself only making a FRACTION of what you made last year.

But thank you so much for explaining that you are doing so well BECAUSE of all these side jobs. Now I can see where you are coming from and why you consider providers to be so greedy to ask for additional payment for additional work.

[Crystal]

Don't you have to have a Bachelors degree to work as a teacher in the school district in California? Are you saying that you make twice that of a teachers aid? What position are you comparing yourself to that you would be qualified to take as someone with an Associate Degree?

Not as a preschool teacher, but, yes, as a kindergarten and up you do. So, I suppose I am comparing it to a preschool teacher.

But, even a teacher with a bachelor's degree earns less.

[Crystal]

Thank you so much for proving that simply providing a daycare service does not garner a hefty income. You gross 6 figures! Of course you do, you have a bunch of "side" businesses going on. You can take on a heck of a lot more kids because you have "assistants" that you don't have to pay for and are instead being paid to have them there to help out (students that you are mentoring). You are so right. If I wanted to branch out, mentor some students and get paid by the school to do so, I could take on an extra 6 kids. Then with the income from the six additional kids plus getting paid for being a mentor and not having to pay them - I'd be rollin' in the dough!

But I would bet if you take all those side businesses away, you would find yourself only making a FRACTION of what you made last year.

But thank you so much for explaining that you are doing so well BECAUSE of all these side jobs. Now I can see where you are coming from and why you consider providers to be so greedy to ask for additional payment for additional work.

My student teachers don't count in my ratios, so I cannot take extra kids because they are here. My husband is my assistant and we are licensed for 14 children. And, yes, the side jobs do allow me to make extra income, and I am able to have those side jobs because of my education (which was the point of this thread). BUT, I still grossed 96,000 before my side jobs, just totals from enrollment. suppose you could cut my income in half since my husband works with me, but I don't because it's a household income. And, before anyone asks, YES, it's all claimed on my taxes

[Crystal]

But thank you so much for explaining that you are doing so well BECAUSE of all these side jobs. Now I can see where you are coming from and why you consider providers to be so greedy to ask for additional payment for additional work.

When and where did I say providers are being greedy to ask for additional payment for additional work?

[DCMom]

My student teachers don't count in my ratios, so I cannot take extra kids because they are here. My husband is my assistant and we are licensed for 14 children. And, yes, the side jobs do allow me to make extra income, and I am able to have those side jobs because of my education (which was the point of this thread). BUT, I still grossed 96,000 before my side jobs, just totals from enrollment. suppose you could cut my income in half since my husband works with me, but I don't because it's a household income. And, before anyone asks, YES, it's all claimed on my taxes

I have been reading this thread with some interest, because I am really on the fence about having/needing a degree. Probably because I am thinking about going back to school... ::

This can be a lucrative business for the right person, with or without a degree. I have done this for 22 years; I have a degree but it is NOT in Early Childhood Education, it is in Business Administration. I worked for ten years prior to starting my daycare doing Corporate AR, AP, Income Tax and Payroll. I started my daycare because I wanted to be a SAHM but we couldn't afford it ~ I stayed with it because I loved it, I was good at it AND I made more money than I could make working in my former field. After the first 5 years, we took the plunge and built a house geared for daycare.

I am licensed for 14, but usually have only 12 kids enrolled, some full time and some part time. I grossed $95k last year and I will come very close to $100K this year. All jobs have pros and cons, but I would never go back to working for someone else.

Just my 2 cents worth.

[Crystal]

I have to add, I never said that, for me, obtaining a degree was about being able to make more money....I simply responded to another posters comment. I could make just as much money as I do now enrollment wise, without the education.

For me, having a degree goes beyond the money aspect of it. For me, it's about being educated about what I do, being able to offer a Developmentally Appropriate program AND be an effective teacher for young children. Certainly, having experience is an extremely valuable asset to have - especially when it pertains to working with children. BUT, FOR ME, having an education is equally important.

My original question here was why is it NOT okay to talk about having a degree? Why do some people get so defensive about it and automatically say "it's just a piece of paper" ? Why do some people automatically assume that if someone mentions having an education, they think they are superior?

It has never been about the money for me....if I was working towards NOT being a family childcare provider, it would be about the money, because to work in nearly any industry and to make a decent salary, you have to have an education. But that's not the case. I went to school to be the best I can be at what I do.