Debate About Higher Education

[kendallina]

I like your response and think this is a well-rounded answer. I do have a question though. How much of a difference does would it make to you (and others) if a person's degree is not related to the field in which they work?

This question wasn't for me, hope you don't mind if I answer it anyways

I think that there are a lot of related degrees that give people a lot of knowledge to be able to effectively work with children (social work, rec, psychology, etc.). I think that a completely un-related degree, while it shows a person's drive for obtaining an education (which is a plus), doesn't really help them too much in the classroom. So as a parent, I probably would be less likely to send my child to someone who has an unrelated degree than to someone who has a related degree.

[professionalmom]

I haven't had a chance to read all the previous posts, so I'm just answering the OP's question. I do have a degree, but not in ECE. I did consider it and would have pursued it if I stayed in daycare. As many of you know, I had to shut down due to a combination of financial hardship (trouble getting clients that pay according to their contract) and medical issues related to my twin pregnancy. However, my degree has helped me in this field. My degree is in criminal justice. I got the degree because it was the closest thing to pre-law at my university and I wanted to go to law school. During my education, I took a lot of courses in child development and planned to work in juvenile law and family law. I have always had a passion for children and families, especially protecting children during a divorce and keeping children from veering off course (into a life of crime). I did go to law school and complete just over 1/3 of it (33/90 credits). I was in my second year (out of 3 years) when I quit to be a mommy. However, my passion for children and families has never waivered. I just thought of being a daycare provider as a way to influence the children BEFORE the problems arise rather than AFTER they get into trouble when they are older. Since I had training in how different things influence a child's choice in the future, I thought I could help children at risk by providing a loveing environment for them while they are young.

However, my law school education has also helped me to construct a very good contract so I could avoid many of the pitfalls that new business owners face (daycare business and other businesses). I have never lost a court case when I have had to take someone to court. I'm not proud of that because I wish it never came down to that, but it happens when you run a business.

As for the actual care of the children, my experience comes from being from a huge family with a ton of cousins, second-cousins, nieces, nephew, etc. I have been watching and taking care of children for free for family (that's how my family does it - we don't charge for occasional babysitting) since I was 9 or 10 years old. It started with my mom present. As I got older, I started babysitting on my own. I had logged thousands and thousands of hours of hands-on experience prior to opening my own daycare (professionally) at age 33. So, I feel like I had a ton of experience plus some education to draw upon. And like I said, I intended to get an ECE. But I can't just say that it was to bolster my reputation as a provider. I love going to school and learning. I know, I'm wierd. But I love learning and growing. I do not always agree with the philosophies that are being taught, but that's when I take what I like and ignore the rest (when it comes to real life).

I did mention my education to prospective clients, but it was in a way where I was saying, I am doing this by choice, because I have a passion for children and helping them to become the best they can be and that I believe that the first 5 years are cruical to who they will become. I thought that they would appreciate knowing that I did not just fall into this or am doing this because I couldn't find something else. I wanted them to know that this was a choice I made based on my natural love for children. I would also remind them that there are many women (without the advanced education) out there that are doing it for the same reasons and that they should also be considered before making a decision.

It was never mentioned in an arrogant way. I would also tell people that I am very lucky to have the opportunity to do something I love, while being home with my child(ren). I think it's all in how you say it. However, the problem with forums like this and others, as well as any other typed or written form is that TONE can not be typed or written, so it is up to the reader to infer the tone, which can cause A LOT of problems and misunderstandings. I have made this mistake many times, so I try to comment on the tone I am using. But it still does not solve all the problems.

Finally, I don't see a problem in mentioning your education as long as it is in the context of "here's what I have learned" or "in case you were wondering". And for those of us with degrees (in ECE or other fields) need to remember, the degrees do not make us better, it just makes us a little more resourseful because we were exposed to a greater number of resources during our education. But for the truly dedicated, but degree-less person, that doesn't matter because they can find resources. And in this day and age, that piece of paper does not guarantee a job, clients, or higher pay. It helps. But it's not the guarantee that it used to be. So, it may make those of us with degrees, just more in debt (student loans). Right now I am torn on the education issue. Is it really worth it? It's a delicate balance between the cost and reward. Will the reward outweigh the cost of getting the education? In this economy, that's a tough question with no clear answers.

[Chickenhauler]

Nice response. I've questioned before why the standards for providers are lower than the ones for teachers.it doesn't change anything for me since I already have an ec degree which I got for teaching, not daycare.most providers wouldn't take the time to get one n I don't blame them since its not required, but since the first 5 yrs are the most crucial, I don't see why the standards are lowered to the point that any 18 year old w a GED can do the job.yet to teach an 18 year old adult whose a senior in hs u need a 4 year degree.

The difference is, one position is child CARE, the other is child TEACHING.

What about the parents interacting with their own children? Why is it a daycare providers duty to teach and raise these kids?

Now, if you want a 'school-like' atmosphere, then by all means, seek one out and pay the extra fees to have your child in their care/teaching.

But, many parents are not in search of a Toddler University.

If you're going to raise the bar for providing daycare with the logic of "the first 5 yrs are the most crucial", maybe instead we should raise the bar on who is allowed to have kids. Cuz that's who the onus of responsibility should be placed on, not the person who provides care for a small fee.

[QualiTcare]

The difference is, one position is child CARE, the other is child TEACHING.

What about the parents interacting with their own children? Why is it a daycare providers duty to teach and raise these kids?

Now, if you want a 'school-like' atmosphere, then by all means, seek one out and pay the extra fees to have your child in their care/teaching.

But, many parents are not in search of a Toddler University.

If you're going to raise the bar for providing daycare with the logic of "the first 5 yrs are the most crucial", maybe instead we should raise the bar on who is allowed to have kids. Cuz that's who the onus of responsibility should be placed on, not the person who provides care for a small fee.

first of all, childcare fees are not normally SMALL by any means.

secondly, it's not a debate about parents teaching their children. if that were the case, we'd need no school at all because parents could just quit their jobs and everybody could stay home and teach their own kids. ask them how that's working out in africa.

lastly, i'd like to hear from ONE provider that doesn't feel like they are TEACHING the kids they "just" CARE for. in fact, most of the daycares i've experienced - the "providers" call themselves TEACHERS.

the first five years ARE the most crucial - that's a fact, not an opinion. but - i'm glad you at least realize there is a difference other than "just a piece of paper." most ppl who say providers don't need an education and/or they can do the same or better of a job as a person with an ECE degree seem to think it's a level playing field. if you want the same respect and notoriety, you should be held to the same standards.

[Chickenhauler]

first of all, childcare fees are not normally SMALL by any means.

Hour for hour, are they comparable to a private school tuition?

Nope.

You get what you pay for.

secondly, it's not a debate about parents teaching their children. if that were the case, we'd need no school at all because parents could just quit their jobs and everybody could stay home and teach their own kids. ask them how that's working out in africa.

lastly, i'd like to hear from ONE provider that doesn't feel like they are TEACHING the kids they "just" CARE for. in fact, most of the daycares i've experienced - the "providers" call themselves TEACHERS.

True, but keep in mind, daycare providers aren't teaching calculus or chemistry, they're teaching manners, social behavior, colors, tie your shoes, don't poop on the rug, etc.

They say the first five years are the most important.....but they never say what's most important to teach in that time. IMHO, that is morality/right from wrong.

the first five years ARE the most crucial - that's a fact, not an opinion. but - i'm glad you at least realize there is a difference other than "just a piece of paper." most ppl who say providers don't need an education and/or they can do the same or better of a job as a person with an ECE degree seem to think it's a level playing field. if you want the same respect and notoriety, you should be held to the same standards.

I'll be honest, I think degrees are highly over rated, especially by people who have a degree without having real world experience. They tend to discount/look down their noses on those who have been doing the task for years with great success, but because they don't have a slip of paper that says they parroted back the proper responses at the proper time in a special room, the 'educated' think they are automatically superior.

Just because a person has a degree doesn't mean they have a clue what they are doing.

[MommyMuffin]

As a parent a nurse and a new provider:
I want my provider to show me that she is reading books about child development, activities ect. Taking local community classes about topics that relate. Just show me that you take an interest in what you are doing. I dont care how much the class cost or what school you took it from, hang it on your bulletin board, put it in your newsletter anything, be proud of the little things because parents do notice. That is my point of view.
As a nurse I have been able to fill spots faster than if I did not have the title; but as a nurse I worked with adults. The parents dont care because "nurse" means many things to them. I love that I am a nurse and feel proud of it, but I feel that it does not make me a better provider. I would much rather have lots of experience and my CDA. So I will be working twoards it slowly because I want to be the best provider I can!
I think its that drive and passion for what you do that makes you stand out and it you have it you will most likely be found taking class/events/readingbooks.

[Crystal]

Hour for hour, are they comparable to a private school tuition?

Nope.

You get what you pay for.



True, but keep in mind, daycare providers aren't teaching calculus or chemistry, they're teaching manners, social behavior, colors, tie your shoes, don't poop on the rug, etc.

They say the first five years are the most important.....but they never say what's most important to teach in that time. IMHO, that is morality/right from wrong.



I'll be honest, I think degrees are highly over rated, especially by people who have a degree without having real world experience. They tend to discount/look down their noses on those who have been doing the task for years with great success, but because they don't have a slip of paper that says they parroted back the proper responses at the proper time in a special room, the 'educated' think they are automatically superior.

Just because a person has a degree doesn't mean they have a clue what they are doing.

Interesting that you would automatically assume that people with degrees look down on others. I certainly don't do that....I use my degree to HELP other providers be better providers, and while doing so, am very open to learning new things from those that I mentor. I not only mentor new teachers/providers, but very experienced ones as well.....I am currently mentoring a Provider who has been in business for 18 years, I have only been in business for 13....but ya know what, SHE realizes that because of my education, that I do have some knowldege that she doesn't have and sought my help in improving the quality of her program.

I find it saddening that providers cannot simply be supportive of one another....while I realize there is competition in this business, the competition should be a local thing. Here on this forum, and any other forum, we should be encouraging each other to move forward in our careers, and supporting one another to be the best we can be.

I will also tell you, as a mentor teacher, I have had the opportunity to be part of a Nationwide discussion re. ECE. The day is coming when all providers, in the United States, will be required to have an education to run their programs.....now would be a good time to start working towards those degrees if you want to be in business in 5-10 years.

Really, though, you shouldn't over-generalize....while some providers with degrees MAY look down on those that don't, so do those with lots of experience towards those that are new to this profession.

I think experience is highly valuable, but I also think education is as well. Ideally we would all have both, but we all have to start somewhere. I started without an education and gained my education over the past 5 years....and while I am very successful in my business, I can say from experience that starting my business would have been alot easier if I had had the education first.

[Chickenhauler]

Interesting that you would automatically assume that people with degrees look down on others. I certainly don't do that....I use my degree to HELP other providers be better providers, and while doing so, am very open to learning new things from those that I mentor. I not only mentor new teachers/providers, but very experienced ones as well.....I am currently mentoring a Provider who has been in business for 18 years, I have only been in business for 13....but ya know what, SHE realizes that because of my education, that I do have some knowldege that she doesn't have and sought my help in improving the quality of her program.

I find it saddening that providers cannot simply be supportive of one another....while I realize there is competition in this business, the competition should be a local thing. Here on this forum, and any other forum, we should be encouraging each other to move forward in our careers, and supporting one another to be the best we can be.

I will also tell you, as a mentor teacher, I have had the opportunity to be part of a Nationwide discussion re. ECE. The day is coming when all providers, in the United States, will be required to have an education to run their programs.....now would be a good time to start working towards those degrees if you want to be in business in 5-10 years.

Really, though, you shouldn't over-generalize....while some providers with degrees MAY look down on those that don't, so do those with lots of experience towards those that are new to this profession.

I think experience is highly valuable, but I also think education is as well. Ideally we would all have both, but we all have to start somewhere. I started without an education and gained my education over the past 5 years....and while I am very successful in my business, I can say from experience that starting my business would have been alot easier if I had had the education first.

I'm speaking from my experience about those with degrees (not only providers, but people in general) and their attitude. Not saying EVERYONE with a degree is that way, but either there sure seems to be a lot of them like that, or the few who are that way make so much racket they make up for the rest.

The day that we're going to spend tens of thousands of dollars so my wife can get a degree to change diapers and wipe runny noses for the current going rate for daycare is the day that I order a custom sleeper semi and we start running team together.

I can understand the need for a degree if you're putting your business forth and billing it as a "education center", but that's not what my wife does, she operates a family structured daycare.

Two very different operations, and two very different rate structures.

[AfterSchoolMom]

first of all, childcare fees are not normally SMALL by any means.

I'd have to disagree with this one point. The going rate in my area for full time home childcare is about two dollars per hour, and parents complain about paying that. I've seen the range that providers on this site charge all over the country, and most are not much higher (some are lower!).

[mac60]

I'd have to disagree with this one point. The going rate in my area for full time home childcare is about two dollars per hour, and parents complain about paying that. I've seen the range that providers on this site charge all over the country, and most are not much higher (some are lower!).

I would love to get $2 per hour per child. Doesn't happen here.

[melskids]

The day that we're going to spend tens of thousands of dollars so my wife can get a degree to change diapers and wipe runny noses for the current going rate for daycare is the day that I order a custom sleeper semi and we start running team together.

that is the issue i am having. my state is changing the regs all around, and want home daycare providers to have degrees. i understand their point, but come on. we are struggling in this economy now....how can they expect me to pay hundreds of $$ a month in student loans, when we are just getting by as it is. i'm a home daycare. i'm not a teacher in an educational learning center. (and even there, the teachers only get $9 an hour) if the state expects us to get degrees, they should be offering some incentive, rebates, grants, something. but do they? of course not. i would LOVE to get a degree, i simply cant afford it.

[Crystal]

melskids...

You can get a degree without it costing you anything, if you qualify for Pell Grants and board of governor fee waiver. Student loans are more for those who cannot get the pell grant, and also need help paying for living exenses while they go to school. AND, if you do take out student loans, you do not pay it back until 6 months after you graduate, AND your payment is based on your income. If you would like more information about how to get the grant, please PM me.

As I said in previous post....there is a nationwide momentum right now for all providers to be required to have an education....it IS going to happen....it WILL be awhile, but why not start preparing for it now, rather than wait and then not be able to stay in business? THAT would be way more costly than going to school.

[Crystal]

The day that we're going to spend tens of thousands of dollars so my wife can get a degree to change diapers and wipe runny noses for the current going rate for daycare is the day that I order a custom sleeper semi and we start running team together.

WOW! Do you really believe that your wife's responsibility to the children she cares for stops at changing diapers and wiping noses? I would hope that most providers take more responsibility than that and would like to think that they feel they are contributing to the overall development of the whole child and assisting them in developing the skills necessary to grow up socially responsible and contributing memebrs of society. In order to do so, there needs to be a deep understanding of the development of children and developmentally appropriate practices.

Really, you should give your wife more credit than that.

And to your wife who I know is a member here, please do not be offended by my response, I DO give you more credit than that, I have read your posts and it is clear that you care deeply about the children you work with.

[Crystal]

I'd have to disagree with this one point. The going rate in my area for full time home childcare is about two dollars per hour, and parents complain about paying that. I've seen the range that providers on this site charge all over the country, and most are not much higher (some are lower!).

But we do not care for ONE child. Say $2 per hour PER child, 5 children is $10 per hour, 10 children is $20 per hour. This isn't a piece work job, it's a group factor. Sure, if you were caring for ONE child, it wouldn't be worth it at $2 per hour, and you wouldn't charge that.....geez, even my daughter who babysits charges $10 per hour.

[professionalmom]

But we do not care for ONE child. Say $2 per hour PER child, 5 children is $10 per hour, 10 children is $20 per hour. This isn't a piece work job, it's a group factor. Sure, if you were caring for ONE child, it wouldn't be worth it at $2 per hour, and you wouldn't charge that.....geez, even my daughter who babysits charges $10 per hour.

But let's look at this for a moment at the $2 per hour. Sure, if you have 10 daycare children AT THE SAME TIME, it does become $20 per hour. But that is NOT the reality. Here in MI, we can only have 6 children at any one time AND our own children count toward that. So, when I only had my DD, I could only have 5 DC kids at any one time. That would be $10 per hour. Ok, still good money. However, no matter what I tried, I couldn't find the 8am - 5pm clients. I had varying amounts of kids (1-5 DC kids) between the hours of 7am - 11pm. That's 16 hour days * 5 days a week = 80 hours per week. Even with 5 kids @ $150 per week, that comes to $750 per week. Now divide that by the 80 hours and I was making $9.37 per hour. Still pretty decent.

However, that still was not the whole picture. Some of those were PT spots, so they were not paying the full amount. I had 2 FT M-F 7:30am - 4:30pm. One that was 2-3 evening per week (PT). One that was FT but the times were 10:30am - 9pm (days/afternoon crossover). One was PT 2-4 days per week. So when I pieced together the FT and PT, I couldn't take on more clients, but was only making $500 per week to work 80 hours per week or $6.25 per hour. And that was the fullest I ever was and it lasted for only 2 months!

Technically, in 2009, I got stiffed out of over $5K. Then, after deductions (the cost of actually doing business, cleaning products, ink, paper, toys, craft supplies, paying for the increase in utilities for the extra water and electricity used to operate the business, etc.), I made half of THAT because 1/2 of every dollar I earned went right back into the daycare! Then I had to pay taxes on that. I worked approximately 3000 hours that year. So after taxes and deductions (expenses), I grossed $6.50 per hour, but netted $2.50! Neither one is even close to minimum wage!

So, NO, it does not add up to $20 per hour! We are darn lucky if we ACTUALLY get $10 per hour when we add up all the children. But most of us are earning less than minimum wage (even before taxes) even though we are working more hours and get fewer breaks than people who work outside the home. Before you ASSUME the "wealth" of others, get the facts, look at tax returns, and realize that you do not know everything - sometimes what you "know" is merely an assumption.