Nonpunitive Discipline

[cheerfuldom]

Ok, I have a hitter. He isn't over the top aggressive, just 2. () In a group setting it's really hard to prevent sometimes. What should I do when he hits? I don't put him in time out as often as his parents and/or former daycare. I DO have him take a break when he is completely not going to hear my good behavior modeling and is melting down and is usually having a temper tantrum/hitting/kicking at that point. That happens 1-2x a week. Any advice would be appreciated because time outs obviously do not work.

you need to watch him even more closely and figure out his triggers. Intervene BEFORE he escalates to out of control behavior. Most of the time, there is some sort of pattern to why a kid is doing something like this and you can be aware of that and head him off at the pass. Try and go towards preventative measures, instead of punishments after the fact.

For my hitter here, it is about her being bored and having too much freedom during particular parts of our daily routine. When I know that her triggers are coming around in our daily schedule, I give her a specific activity or instruction so she is occupied and not looking for trouble out of boredom. The other kids can handle free play a lot better than she can.

[My3cents]

There are some good points in that post, but this made me scratch my head:

I thought one day, why does my husband come home from work after 12 hours and do the dishes for me? He surely doesn't fear me. He does it out of love. Why do I lug the trash across the road when he's running late? Love. Why would my child tidy his room if I asked? There are 2 choices. He could tidy up because he's afraid of his punishment if he doesn't, resenting me all the while, OR he could do it for the same reason hubby does the dishes and I take out the trash. Love.

I choose love.

I believe that we're raising kids (our own AND our dc kids) to function appropriately within society, not just within a family. And I don't know about you guys, but I didn't work at my job outside the home because I loved my boss. I don't follow the rules of the road because I love police officers. And I don't brush my teeth everyday because I love my dentist.

I haven't read any of the other posts on the blog, and I'm sure I'm missing something, but I really don't think that expecting kids to behave because they love me is a realistic expectation.

I totally agree with natural consequences, and I believe a truly loving parent will allow their child to experience those consequences in a safe environment. And of course, I love my family dearly and do many things out of that love for them. But the implication I got was that we should use a child's love for us as a basis for expecting obedience from a child.

What am I missing here?

I thought it was a good article- food for thought. but.....agree, not everything is great and wonderful in the real world,not everything is love. I think you need to find a balance. Teaching a child that he or she has reached limits is not a bad thing. I don't always have it in me to stop and explain every little thing. I sometimes need things to stop because I said so, because I do have your best interest at heart. I am an extremely patient person and teacher etc...... but I am human. I react. I agree with the above. I agree with natural consequences to an extent. I also agree with it is ok for children to learn the word No. I feel time out works for some kids and not others. I feel teaching kids there are limits in life is ok, if you don't follow the rules, life doesn't go on happy oh happy. Sometimes a time out is for me not just the child, time away- I agree children need to be ready to be mixed in with society, not just the cushy family. Limits and Boundaries are what kids thrive on, because this teaches them the rules of the road. Every child is different and what works for one may not work for another. Thanks for sharing-

[My3cents]

Which would kind of add strings to something that is suppose to be unconditional :confused:

interesting.

just putting this out there, so you love love love and then your child does something horrible, unthinkable. Do you still love the child unconditionally? I believe that love has conditions on many levels. Teaching kids limits is ok for me. Beating a child is not. Having a child go to a time out to think about what the child has done, to give me a chance to think and the child is not going to harm the child for life. Somewhere along that child's journey someone is going to put a wall up to that child and teaching the child to back away to think is ok for me- call it punishing or not.


I go with finding a balance of what works and keeping it real, being consistent as much as possible, clear expectations, but remembering that we are human and make tons of mistakes along the way- When there are teachable moments grab them but when there are not showing kids the limits and that consequences happen is ok too. I think we are multi faceted people and more then one approach is what is needed to make well rounded individuals.

[My3cents]

you need to watch him even more closely and figure out his triggers. Intervene BEFORE he escalates to out of control behavior. Most of the time, there is some sort of pattern to why a kid is doing something like this and you can be aware of that and head him off at the pass. Try and go towards preventative measures, instead of punishments after the fact.

For my hitter here, it is about her being bored and having too much freedom during particular parts of our daily routine. When I know that her triggers are coming around in our daily schedule, I give her a specific activity or instruction so she is occupied and not looking for trouble out of boredom. The other kids can handle free play a lot better than she can.

yikes- agree to an extent. You do have to watch the hitter more but hitting can be so spontaneous and happen quick that you can be sitting next to the child when it happens and not be able to stop it. I think if a child hits, he is going to learn we don't do that when he is taken away from the other kids more then if I try to reason why to him. I have found that teaching gentle sometimes causes more hitting, because it is a cause and effect thing for the littles. They want to see the reactions of me saying and showing gentle, the reaction of the kid that gets hit and then again another reaction of what happens to the kid when all the gentles come in. I find they do it more. I think trust is something that has to be taught and they learn this by not doing it when I say we don't hit. Keeping it simple. We just don't do it because we don't. Trust me, we don't hit. NOOOOOOoooooooooooooo hitting. If you hit your going to be punished by being separated from the other kids. I don't go into details that the child is being punished. I just do it. Actions.

[Heidi]

yikes- agree to an extent. You do have to watch the hitter more but hitting can be so spontaneous and happen quick that you can be sitting next to the child when it happens and not be able to stop it. I think if a child hits, he is going to learn we don't do that when he is taken away from the other kids more then if I try to reason why to him. I have found that teaching gentle sometimes causes more hitting, because it is a cause and effect thing for the littles. They want to see the reactions of me saying and showing gentle, the reaction of the kid that gets hit and then again another reaction of what happens to the kid when all the gentles come in. I find they do it more. I think trust is something that has to be taught and they learn this by not doing it when I say we don't hit. Keeping it simple. We just don't do it because we don't. Trust me, we don't hit. NOOOOOOoooooooooooooo hitting. If you hit your going to be punished by being separated from the other kids. I don't go into details that the child is being punished. I just do it. Actions.

I cant' quote all your responses...so I will just say I agree with all 3 100%. I especially like the part about balance.

Yes, I lead by example. Yes, I teach and lead with love. Yes, I expect some compliance because they love me. But, sometimes they do things because not doing it costs them something (or don't do something because doing it will cost them something.

Usually, if a child is overwhelmed, I tell them to go sit somewhere else until they are ready to be kind (or quiet, or polite). But, occasionally give a "real" time-out, when the other things aren't sinking in. With my own children, I have occasionally spanked (more like swatted) as an "exclamation point"(but I've never spanked a child for hitting...that's plain silly). I kind of use true timeouts the same way with dc kids. Now, you really know you blew it, because you are sitting and Heidi has said SHE will choose when you get up.

Sometimes, they've just crossed the same line too often and too far, and all the words in the world don't seem to be making an impression. Maybe their frontal lobes weren't developed enough to think it through first. But, that's what I'm here for. It's kind of "fake it 'til you make it". They need us to guide their behavior until they can internalize it.

That, to me, is how children develop their ethics. They learn the behavior first, then begin to understand why, THEN learn to care about why.

Some of the ideas...like the cuddle corner thing, sound good, and to some extent I agree with it. But, when do we teach them that you don't HAVE to be angry all the time? Sure, everyone is entitled to their feelings, but is it ok to be mad whenever you don't get your own way? Once in a while, can we forgo the "angry spot" or "cuddle corner" or whatever and just **** it up? Just make a sad face, take a deep breathe, and say "oh, ok"? I had a 5 year old here for a year who was completely incapable of that.

I guess where it seems like the blogger goes too far (to me) is by putting all these items in there. Basically, toys. I would like to see it in action, because it SEEMS like it would just be a lot of drama. "Mom said no ice cream, so I am going to be angry now, and go stomp off screaming to the crying spot. Then, I will calm down from the enormous trauma I have suffered by staring at some glitter in a jar and squeezing the balloons".

eh...it just seems like too much of a production, and in my mind might reinforce the idea of "I need to be mad about something".

BTW...I am not criticising the blogger or anyone else. I just don't think it would work for me.

[DBug]

I guess where it seems like the blogger goes too far (to me) is by putting all these items in there. Basically, toys. I would like to see it in action, because it SEEMS like it would just be a lot of drama. "Mom said no ice cream, so I am going to be angry now, and go stomp off screaming to the crying spot. Then, I will calm down from the enormous trauma I have suffered by staring at some glitter in a jar and squeezing the balloons".

eh...it just seems like too much of a production, and in my mind might reinforce the idea of "I need to be mad about something".

I totally agree! I could see my dc kids seeing those special "calm-down" toys as rewards for freaking out. Why should someone who is having trouble controlling themselves get special treatment for it?

Why not focus on teaching self-calming techniques (deep breaths, counting to 10, walking away) so that the child will have the skills to take with them wherever they go?

[Blackcat31]

interesting.

just putting this out there, so you love love love and then your child does something horrible, unthinkable. Do you still love the child unconditionally? I believe that love has conditions on many levels.

Ok, I am looking for clarification here because if I am reading this right, you are saying that you DO place conditions on love? :confused:

If my child does something horrible and unthinkable would I still love them unconditionally?? For me the answer is yes. I love my children and my family UNCONDITIONALLY. PERIOD. No strings attached. No conditions.

I may not be happy with their behavior, but I absolutely love them unconditionally.

[Heidi]

Ok, I am looking for clarification here because if I am reading this right, you are saying that you DO place conditions on love? :confused:

If my child does something horrible and unthinkable would I still love them unconditionally?? For me the answer is yes. I love my children and my family UNCONDITIONALLY. PERIOD. No strings attached. No conditions.

I may not be happy with their behavior, but I absolutely love them unconditionally.

I agree. It would break my heart, and I would be ashamed for them, but I would still love them. Heck, I still love my ex-husband...sort of. Not in the I-wish-I was-still-married-to-him sort of way, but I still care about him.

[daycarediva]

you need to watch him even more closely and figure out his triggers. Intervene BEFORE he escalates to out of control behavior. Most of the time, there is some sort of pattern to why a kid is doing something like this and you can be aware of that and head him off at the pass. Try and go towards preventative measures, instead of punishments after the fact.

For my hitter here, it is about her being bored and having too much freedom during particular parts of our daily routine. When I know that her triggers are coming around in our daily schedule, I give her a specific activity or instruction so she is occupied and not looking for trouble out of boredom. The other kids can handle free play a lot better than she can.

I actually started jotting them down in a notebook today, since he was so agressive right off the bat(it is NEVER this bad)!

He hit at drop off, Mom. (mad about drop off? iono) He didn't cry at drop off.
breakfast (one hour later, free play in between) kicked dcb under the table hard enough for dcb to cry. He was smiling while he did it with a banana in his hand that he continued to take bites of.
am free play (this one was obvious, he wanted a toy)
lunch he was running around the room pushing people and if they didn't fall he would push them again. He ended up sitting in the kitchen the entire time I cooked lunch.


Then he had a nap and was picked up shortly after that/within the hour. Holy moly! I put my helper on him as a shadow. we will document it all and try to figure it out.