Nonpunitive Discipline

[EntropyControlSpecialist]

http://www.positive-parents.org/2011/07/nonpunitive-discipline-lazy-parenting.html

I especially love this part:
"I'd like to make another quick point. I'm a medical transcriptionist by day, and I type for a neurology account. One of my doctors specializes in dementia, and often these patients, who range from mild cognitive decline to severe dementia, will have behavior problems such as lashing out, aggression, agitation, and inappropriate language and manner. They also often have sleep problems. Never ONCE has the doctor indicated to the caregiver that the patient needs to be punished for his behavior problems. Why not? Because it is widely recognized and accepted that these behaviors are caused by a lack of cognitive ability. Neuroscience has now proven that children (especially under age 6) do not misbehave out of defiance, but rather out of lack of cognitive ability because of their underdeveloped brains. It takes the brain 20+ years to fully develop, but particularly before age 6, children literally do not have full access to the frontal region of the brain which handles logic, sequential thinking, self-awareness, and self-regulation."

[daycarediva]

I posted it on my daycare facebook! LOVE!

Side note: do you use time out? If so, for what? and how?

I only use time out when a child is out of control of themselves. For instance, throwing a tantrum. I say "I can see you are upset. Let's take a break." and move them to a non-designated safe, comfortable place. When they are calmed down, depending on their level of development, we can talk, role model or re-create the situation and give them some words or ideas to use in the future.

Almost everyone I know uses time out as a punishment, and it doesn't work. As soon as the kid hits, they grab him, toss him in 'time out' spot and set a timer. No conversation before or after.

[cheerfuldom]

I posted it on my daycare facebook! LOVE!

Side note: do you use time out? If so, for what? and how?

I only use time out when a child is out of control of themselves. For instance, throwing a tantrum. I say "I can see you are upset. Let's take a break." and move them to a non-designated safe, comfortable place. When they are calmed down, depending on their level of development, we can talk, role model or re-create the situation and give them some words or ideas to use in the future.

Almost everyone I know uses time out as a punishment, and it doesn't work. As soon as the kid hits, they grab him, toss him in 'time out' spot and set a timer. No conversation before or after.

I dont do timed time outs either. I find them to be a power struggle and not productive at all. I try and do as much preventative measures as possible.....making sure kids are rested, fed, changed, occupied in a safe and age appropriate way. We do have a "Cry corner" where kids can go to cool down but there is no time limit to be there and they can come out whenever they are ready to participate with the group. Having clear expectations and talking to kids (not negotiating though) about what is expected helps so much. I also believe in natural consequences...if they choose to not eat a meal, I dont "punish" them for that but I do bring it up if they are saying they are hungry 30 minutes later and the result of not eating your meal when you can, is that you may be hungry for a bit before the next meal....that type of thing.

[EntropyControlSpecialist]

I posted it on my daycare facebook! LOVE!

Side note: do you use time out? If so, for what? and how?

I only use time out when a child is out of control of themselves. For instance, throwing a tantrum. I say "I can see you are upset. Let's take a break." and move them to a non-designated safe, comfortable place. When they are calmed down, depending on their level of development, we can talk, role model or re-create the situation and give them some words or ideas to use in the future.

Almost everyone I know uses time out as a punishment, and it doesn't work. As soon as the kid hits, they grab him, toss him in 'time out' spot and set a timer. No conversation before or after.

You know, I was using time outs for one child. Now, just lots of practicing the appropriate behavior.
We love logical consequences.

[SilverSabre25]

OH, love it! What a great blog.

[daycarediva]

Ok, I have a hitter. He isn't over the top aggressive, just 2. () In a group setting it's really hard to prevent sometimes. What should I do when he hits? I don't put him in time out as often as his parents and/or former daycare. I DO have him take a break when he is completely not going to hear my good behavior modeling and is melting down and is usually having a temper tantrum/hitting/kicking at that point. That happens 1-2x a week. Any advice would be appreciated because time outs obviously do not work.

[Bookworm]

What I've done with hitters (I work with 4's) is place them in a hula hoop. They are still allowed to play with the group but only within the space of the hoop. I allow him/her to get whatever toy they want to play with and take it in the hoop but they can't play with the other children. This worked miracles in my room. This might work for you depending on if he is a younger or older two.

[Hunni Bee]

I use un-timed, non-punitive time-outs too.

I used to time them because that's what I thought I was supposed to do, but it was more about "is four minutes up yet" than taking a breather and getting ready to rejoin the group. Plus all of my kitchen timers were "accidentally" broken somehow .

I just say "when you scream, it makes it too loud in here. come back when your inside voice is working" or "you can go over here and finish crying. come back and play when you're done". Other than that, I just use "natural" consequences and as much redirection as I can stand. You hit - you play alone for a while. You run - you sit. You say mean words - you rest your words for a while.

[SilverSabre25]

Did you guys see this post on the same blog?

http://www.positive-parents.org/2012/07/anger-control-stoplight-for-kids.html

[EntropyControlSpecialist]

Did you guys see this post on the same blog?

http://www.positive-parents.org/2012...-for-kids.html

Love that post. Those kinds of things are what we call therapeutic parenting in the adoptive world. Everything has to be handled like that, even happy emotions (because they can trigger other emotions that just aren't pretty).

[DBug]

There are some good points in that post, but this made me scratch my head:

I thought one day, why does my husband come home from work after 12 hours and do the dishes for me? He surely doesn't fear me. He does it out of love. Why do I lug the trash across the road when he's running late? Love. Why would my child tidy his room if I asked? There are 2 choices. He could tidy up because he's afraid of his punishment if he doesn't, resenting me all the while, OR he could do it for the same reason hubby does the dishes and I take out the trash. Love.

I choose love.

I believe that we're raising kids (our own AND our dc kids) to function appropriately within society, not just within a family. And I don't know about you guys, but I didn't work at my job outside the home because I loved my boss. I don't follow the rules of the road because I love police officers. And I don't brush my teeth everyday because I love my dentist.

I haven't read any of the other posts on the blog, and I'm sure I'm missing something, but I really don't think that expecting kids to behave because they love me is a realistic expectation.

I totally agree with natural consequences, and I believe a truly loving parent will allow their child to experience those consequences in a safe environment. And of course, I love my family dearly and do many things out of that love for them. But the implication I got was that we should use a child's love for us as a basis for expecting obedience from a child.

What am I missing here?

[Blackcat31]

There are some good points in that post, but this made me scratch my head:

I thought one day, why does my husband come home from work after 12 hours and do the dishes for me? He surely doesn't fear me. He does it out of love. Why do I lug the trash across the road when he's running late? Love. Why would my child tidy his room if I asked? There are 2 choices. He could tidy up because he's afraid of his punishment if he doesn't, resenting me all the while, OR he could do it for the same reason hubby does the dishes and I take out the trash. Love.

I choose love.

I believe that we're raising kids (our own AND our dc kids) to function appropriately within society, not just within a family. And I don't know about you guys, but I didn't work at my job outside the home because I loved my boss. I don't follow the rules of the road because I love police officers. And I don't brush my teeth everyday because I love my dentist.

I haven't read any of the other posts on the blog, and I'm sure I'm missing something, but I really don't think that expecting kids to behave because they love me is a realistic expectation.

I totally agree with natural consequences, and I believe a truly loving parent will allow their child to experience those consequences in a safe environment. And of course, I love my family dearly and do many things out of that love for them. But the implication I got was that we should use a child's love for us as a basis for expecting obedience from a child.
What am I missing here?

Which would kind of add strings to something that is suppose to be unconditional :confused:

[DBug]

I got the impression that the blogger was saying we should expect a child to feel love for us and as a result of that, follow the rules. Not the other way around (ie, if you obey Mommy, she'll love you more).

But that's what I don't get: if we're teaching kids that the reason why they should follow the rules is because they love us, we're setting them up for failure when they get to school (where they probably won't love their teachers) or into the real world (where they won't love their bosses, etc).

We're also setting them up to break the rules when they feel like they DON'T love us, kwim?

But perhaps I misunderstood the gist of the post?

[EntropyControlSpecialist]

What I got from the post was helping the child develop their internal locus of control rather than having the child do XYZ because they fear punishment.

http://www.aubreymontessori.com/ParentingTips.html

[Hunni Bee]

I remember in one of my psych classes a few years ago learning that, children under the age of six (?) don't have fully-functioning moral compasses. Things aren't inherently right/wrong to them - stuff is right when it nets favorable reactions from adults and wrong when it doesn't. Cause and effect is really big with this age - if I "do" this, then I "get" that.

If you ask most four-year-olds "why is hitting wrong/bad" they'll say "because you will get into trouble if you do it" before anything else.

Also, empathy is hard for them to grasp and they have trouble understanding how their actions affect other people. So I don't think a child that young would equate behaving well with loving other people. It just readily wouldn't occur to them that misbehavior on their part might hurt other people, but knowledge of a impending consequence (not punishment) would.

Just the way I see it.