Babies 6 Weeks of Age?

[QualiTcare]

exactly - someone has to pick up the garbage and clean the crappers...

and trust me, people are doing the work nobody else wants to do aren't making enough to do much of anything except survive.

maybe some of you have never known poor people (and no, not all poor people just waste their money) but things like insurance, car insurance, retirement plans aren't even in the realm of a possibility.

it's nice to dream though

[Chickenhauler]

exactly - someone has to pick up the garbage and clean the crappers...

and trust me, people are doing the work nobody else wants to do aren't making enough to do much of anything except survive.

maybe some of you have never known poor people (and no, not all poor people just waste their money) but things like insurance, car insurance, retirement plans aren't even in the realm of a possibility.

it's nice to dream though

The reason that menial task jobs are paid a pittance is simple supply and demand.

Brain surgeons command high salaries because there are very few people who can do that task.

Just about anyone who can manage to walk and chew gum at the same time can clean a toilet and take out the trash. This means that roughly half the population can fill this position (maybe less).

Supply and demand.

[QualiTcare]

The reason that menial task jobs are paid a pittance is simple supply and demand.

Brain surgeons command high salaries because there are very few people who can do that task.

Just about anyone who can manage to walk and chew gum at the same time can clean a toilet and take out the trash. This means that roughly half the population can fill this position (maybe less).

Supply and demand.

brain surgeons SHOULD be paid a lot because they do a very important job as do most surgeons - and they deserve the rewards they get.

just about anyone CAN clean a toilet and collect garbage (not exactly taking out trash, but ok).

so, u agree that people with important jobs (brain surgeons) deserve high salaries, while housekeepers and garbage men don't. i can go with that.

but is there ANY job that a WORKING person who is willing to get up, go out, and go do - whether it be brain surgery or especially cleaning toilets....

that they shouldn't be able to afford the LUXURY of healthcare?

that's what is so sick about our country. people who stay at home in their pajamas and do jack crap get everything, including healthcare for FREE. i live in tennessee and our free healthcare to every skank and deadbeat is called TennCare. every woman who doesn't work and has kids is eligible free of cost. it even pays for their lortabs, oxy's, roxy's - u name it. kid gets a fever of 101? RACE to the doctor - it's FREE!

but that trash man we're talking about - he's out in the blazing sun picking up TRASH and would rather suffer with a broken finger than go to the doctor cus he can't afford insurance - and since he's not a lazy bum sitting on the couch - can't get it for free!


the middle class is getting screwed. the upper class are fine cus they have the $$ in their pocket. the lower class is fine cus they're getting the $$ from the upper class's pockets. the middle class is getting screwed.

yeah, i know "be responsible, save your money, blah blah" i get it. that doesn't make it okay that the people who do jack crap are getting taken care of while the ones who work hard are doing without. ever seen someone who gets food stamps at the grocery store? they're easy to spot. buggy loaded full with crap normal people can't afford. i guess it doesn't matte - cus when they have a heart attack, they'll get open heart surgery via free healthcare.

i'll just eat pb&j, call myself responsible, and ignore the fact that our system is screwed and should (and CAN) be fixed.

[Chickenhauler]

brain surgeons SHOULD be paid a lot because they do a very important job as do most surgeons - and they deserve the rewards they get.

just about anyone CAN clean a toilet and collect garbage (not exactly taking out trash, but ok).

so, u agree that people with important jobs (brain surgeons) deserve high salaries, while housekeepers and garbage men don't. i can go with that.

but is there ANY job that a WORKING person who is willing to get up, go out, and go do - whether it be brain surgery or especially cleaning toilets....

that they shouldn't be able to afford the LUXURY of healthcare?

that's what is so sick about our country. people who stay at home in their pajamas and do jack crap get everything, including healthcare for FREE. i live in tennessee and our free healthcare to every skank and deadbeat is called TennCare. every woman who doesn't work and has kids is eligible free of cost. it even pays for their lortabs, oxy's, roxy's - u name it. kid gets a fever of 101? RACE to the doctor - it's FREE!

but that trash man we're talking about - he's out in the blazing sun picking up TRASH and would rather suffer with a broken finger than go to the doctor cus he can't afford insurance - and since he's not a lazy bum sitting on the couch - can't get it for free!


the middle class is getting screwed. the upper class are fine cus they have the $$ in their pocket. the lower class is fine cus they're getting the $$ from the upper class's pockets. the middle class is getting screwed.

yeah, i know "be responsible, save your money, blah blah" i get it. that doesn't make it okay that the people who do jack crap are getting taken care of while the ones who work hard are doing without. ever seen someone who gets food stamps at the grocery store? they're easy to spot. buggy loaded full with crap normal people can't afford. i guess it doesn't matte - cus when they have a heart attack, they'll get open heart surgery via free healthcare.

i'll just eat pb&j, call myself responsible, and ignore the fact that our system is screwed and should (and CAN) be fixed.

I hear you, but take a step back and let's look at the reality of it all.

Good example....ag workers. If we're going to raise their standard of living to where they can afford health insurance for them and their 19 offspring, suddenly lettuce is going to cost $12 per head.

Nothing in an economy exists in a vaccuum, it's all related. A dollar sign butterfly effect. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_effect

Health care is not cheap. And it shouldn't be, I don't want a minimum wage brain surgeon. I want the best, and one that is being paid a really good wage.

Ask yourself this.....how much is your life worth? Couple hundred bucks a month?



PS-the garbage man where I live makes some really good coin, $50k or better with full benefits.

[Unregistered]

Not everyone has a job where they can get health insurance for a couple hundred bucks a month. And for those that do, even their coverage is not good with high deductibles before any medical expenses are paid, and I am talking deductibles of over $3800 per year, add that up and the insurance cost are well over $500 per month between monthly fees plus deductibles, not really affordable to many families. Yea, we may have health insurance, but we can't use it because we can't afford too.

Try to get your own policy going online or thru a local insurance broker, and you will pay upwards of $400 (That is a low monthly premium) per month for a family of 4, and the deductibles are $10,000 or more per year. Yea, again not affordable to many families.

It is easy for people who have a good health insurance policy to knock those of us who don't, until you have been in our shoes well then.................well maybe someday you will be in our shoes, because it wasn't always this way for us.

[Chickenhauler]

Not everyone has a job where they can get health insurance for a couple hundred bucks a month. And for those that do, even their coverage is not good with high deductibles before any medical expenses are paid, and I am talking deductibles of over $3800 per year, add that up and the insurance cost are well over $500 per month between monthly fees plus deductibles, not really affordable to many families. Yea, we may have health insurance, but we can't use it because we can't afford too.

Try to get your own policy going online or thru a local insurance broker, and you will pay upwards of $400 (That is a low monthly premium) per month for a family of 4, and the deductibles are $10,000 or more per year. Yea, again not affordable to many families.

It is easy for people who have a good health insurance policy to knock those of us who don't, until you have been in our shoes well then.................well maybe someday you will be in our shoes, because it wasn't always this way for us.

I've been in their shoes more than once in my life, and here's what I did....worked more hours, worked harder, found a better job, improved my lot in life, reduced my 'non-essential' spending.

There are many options available, straight up health insurance being only one of them.

Try looking into HSA's once. They can be very affordable and reasonable.

[Unregistered]

HSA are a joke, the money that goes into to them comes out of your paycheck.....that is how ours works. If you don't have money to put in them, you have no money for healthcare. Yes, some companies do contribute something, and yes it is non taxable money. Still, you have to have the money to put in it, and not everyone does. Yea, we would all like to find a better job....hell, some of us would be happy to find ANY job, but with unemployment so high, it is not that easy.

[jen]

According to the Kaiser Institute the AVERAGE cost of medical insurance for a family of four in the United States is $13,375 per year, up from $6,400 in 2000. That is not a few hundred bucks, it is over $1,000.

As for HSA's they do NOTHING for the working poor or lower end of the middle class. In fact, they were designed by the rich and for the rich. The theory is that families can put away a part of their paycheck into a savings account (tax free of course) for future use of medical expenses and secondly, enroll in a high deductible insurance plan.

Here is a list of the published "benefits" of an HSA account:

•used in combination with a high-deductible health plan.

Poor people cannot afford high deductibles and therefore will often refrain from seeking medical attention until a health condition has reached a critical point. This means more hospitilzations and deaths. This is especially a problem for people with chronic conditions such as diabetes.


•contributions are not includible in gross income – they are tax-free.

The working poor aren't making enough wages to have tax liablities. This is a means for the rich to stash away money and shift more of the burden on to the middle class.

•help employees become better health care consumers.
This may be true, especially for the middle class. Consumers who lack education and savy to navigate the health care system are unlikely to have that skill set. The poorest in our country do tend to be the least educated.

•payouts for qualified medical expenses are tax-free.

Again, the working poor don't have tax issues.


•savings are owned by the individual and can move from employer to employer.

True, but if you don't have enough money to put food on the table, it is unlikely that you will have anything to contribute.

•can "roll over" year-to-year to create a sizable retirement nest egg.

Again, if you don't have enough food, you aren't going to be putting much away. Very nice benefit for the upper middle class and above though.


•accumulated interest and dividends are tax-free or tax-deferred.

See above

•contributions by employers are exempt from payroll taxes.
The working poor are having very little taken out for taxes, little benefit for them.

•"the better rainy day fund" health care savings plan.

See above

[professionalmom]

I've been in their shoes more than once in my life, and here's what I did....worked more hours, worked harder, found a better job, improved my lot in life, reduced my 'non-essential' spending.

There are many options available, straight up health insurance being only one of them.

Try looking into HSA's once. They can be very affordable and reasonable.

I agree with the "reduced your non-essential spending". Been there, done that! However, in this day and age, many people do not know how that is defined. I try to tell people that you have to think of survival NEEDS - food, water, clothing, shelter, etc. - the things that you WILL DIE without. Beyond those are secondary needs such as health, safety, etc. which make life worth more than a mere exisitence. Then come the wants. However, I find that most people get confused by this category. Many think the Internet is a Need. I "need" it to do the reporting for the food program and DHS, but if I really think about it, I could report by phone or go to the library, so it's really a "want" for convenience.

Sadly, many people buy into the propaganda of the latest commercials for the latest electronic device (and other things). Then they think they "need" it because their neighbors, the Joneses, will get it and they have to "keep up with the Joneses". It's pathetic and embarrassing how easily humans can allow themselves to be manipulated. Thankfully, my parents taught me to think for myself, so I don't fall into these "I gotta have it" traps.

But I also remember tv remotes that had CORDS, rotary phones, and typewriters. When I was growing up, we didn't have wireless "stuff", cell phones, video cameras, DVDS (or even VCRs), digital cameras, Internet, email, ipods, etc. We didn't have that stuff AND we didn't need it. If I lived once without all of that, I could do it again. But, today's generation would feel like they stepped into the stone age. Heaven help us if we lose indoor plumbing!

[professionalmom]

According to the Kaiser Institute the AVERAGE cost of medical insurance for a family of four in the United States is $13,375 per year, up from $6,400 in 2000. That is not a few hundred bucks, it is over $1,000.

As for HSA's they do NOTHING for the working poor or lower end of the middle class. In fact, they were designed by the rich and for the rich. The theory is that families can put away a part of their paycheck into a savings account (tax free of course) for future use of medical expenses and secondly, enroll in a high deductible insurance plan.

Here is a list of the published "benefits" of an HSA account:

•used in combination with a high-deductible health plan.

Poor people cannot afford high deductibles and therefore will often refrain from seeking medical attention until a health condition has reached a critical point. This means more hospitilzations and deaths. This is especially a problem for people with chronic conditions such as diabetes.


•contributions are not includible in gross income – they are tax-free.

The working poor aren't making enough wages to have tax liablities. This is a means for the rich to stash away money and shift more of the burden on to the middle class.

•help employees become better health care consumers.
This may be true, especially for the middle class. Consumers who lack education and savy to navigate the health care system are unlikely to have that skill set. The poorest in our country do tend to be the least educated.

•payouts for qualified medical expenses are tax-free.

Again, the working poor don't have tax issues.


•savings are owned by the individual and can move from employer to employer.

True, but if you don't have enough money to put food on the table, it is unlikely that you will have anything to contribute.

•can "roll over" year-to-year to create a sizable retirement nest egg.

Again, if you don't have enough food, you aren't going to be putting much away. Very nice benefit for the upper middle class and above though.


•accumulated interest and dividends are tax-free or tax-deferred.

See above

•contributions by employers are exempt from payroll taxes.
The working poor are having very little taken out for taxes, little benefit for them.

•"the better rainy day fund" health care savings plan.

See above

Ok, this thread has gotten WAY off topic. However, I am curious about solutions. We can debate the healthcare issue all day. Some people think it's the government's job to step in and "fix" everything. Others, like Chickenhauler and I think that the government can't "fix" anything because when you hand over control to "Big Brother" you lose your rights and freedoms (which our forefathers gave their blood, sweat, tears, and lives for). Why can't we, the thinking, intelligent civilians, figure out a way to make these "dreams of a brighter future" a reality withOUT giving up our rights and freedoms? Let's search for solutions. It's pointless to point out what's broke unless you can help develop a "solution". But I wonder if the "solution" is part of the problem. I could be wrong, but to me it seems like some people just want to complain and then pass the buck to "big Brother" to fix. Others want the general population to step-up and be responsible for themselves without expecting a government bailout. So, is the solution a debate over WHO is responsible for finding the solution? If that is the case, we will never find a solution.

If anyone has any solutions to propose, I'm sure we would all love to hear those.

[Chickenhauler]

HSA are a joke, the money that goes into to them comes out of your paycheck.....that is how ours works. If you don't have money to put in them, you have no money for healthcare. Yes, some companies do contribute something, and yes it is non taxable money. Still, you have to have the money to put in it, and not everyone does. Yea, we would all like to find a better job....hell, some of us would be happy to find ANY job, but with unemployment so high, it is not that easy.

An HSA worked really well for me for many years, and I never laughed at it.

Bummer, the money comes out of your paycheck....how awful, you have to pay for your health insurance! What next, you have to pay for your own groceries, electricity, housing?

Why do so many people think that someone else should pick up the tab for their healthcare?

[Chickenhauler]

According to the Kaiser Institute the AVERAGE cost of medical insurance for a family of four in the United States is $13,375 per year, up from $6,400 in 2000. That is not a few hundred bucks, it is over $1,000.

As for HSA's they do NOTHING for the working poor or lower end of the middle class. In fact, they were designed by the rich and for the rich. The theory is that families can put away a part of their paycheck into a savings account (tax free of course) for future use of medical expenses and secondly, enroll in a high deductible insurance plan.

Here is a list of the published "benefits" of an HSA account:

•used in combination with a high-deductible health plan.

Poor people cannot afford high deductibles and therefore will often refrain from seeking medical attention until a health condition has reached a critical point. This means more hospitilzations and deaths. This is especially a problem for people with chronic conditions such as diabetes.


•contributions are not includible in gross income – they are tax-free.

The working poor aren't making enough wages to have tax liablities. This is a means for the rich to stash away money and shift more of the burden on to the middle class.

•help employees become better health care consumers.
This may be true, especially for the middle class. Consumers who lack education and savy to navigate the health care system are unlikely to have that skill set. The poorest in our country do tend to be the least educated.

•payouts for qualified medical expenses are tax-free.

Again, the working poor don't have tax issues.


•savings are owned by the individual and can move from employer to employer.

True, but if you don't have enough money to put food on the table, it is unlikely that you will have anything to contribute.

•can "roll over" year-to-year to create a sizable retirement nest egg.

Again, if you don't have enough food, you aren't going to be putting much away. Very nice benefit for the upper middle class and above though.


•accumulated interest and dividends are tax-free or tax-deferred.

See above

•contributions by employers are exempt from payroll taxes.
The working poor are having very little taken out for taxes, little benefit for them.

•"the better rainy day fund" health care savings plan.

See above

Sounds like a classic case of class envy instead of looking at another option to determine if it will be viable for your personal situation.

Here's an idea, if your current employer does not offer health insurance and does not pay enough to afford it, find one that does.

Here's a starter http://www.mcdonalds.com/us/en/careers/benefits.html

yup, even Fry-O-Later operaters get health insurance.

[Unregistered]

An HSA worked really well for me for many years, and I never laughed at it.

Bummer, the money comes out of your paycheck....how awful, you have to pay for your health insurance! What next, you have to pay for your own groceries, electricity, housing?

Why do so many people think that someone else should pick up the tab for their healthcare?

Wow, I can't believe how some people comment here. No one said anything about anyone paying for my healthcare. I have ALWAYS paid for it. I just said HSA'a are a joke, you HAVE to have money to put in them for them to work. Jen spelled it out very well in her post. Until a person has been in the shoes of a parent or family that is dealing with unemployment, no jobs in the area, barely able to buy groceries, working a part time job in order to pay for a health insurance (thru COBRA), with a high deductible, well, life isn't always that easy. And I never said anything about anyone paying for my groceries, electricity, housing. We have never received a food stamp, had a utility bill paid, received any help from anyone.....WE HAVE ALWAYS PAID OUR OWN WAY. There are many many many families struggling right now just to survive. It has nothing to do with the way they have managed their money. Many have lost their jobs due to absolutely no fault of their own, and unless you have the money to move away, we do what we have to to survive.

[jen]

Sounds like a classic case of class envy instead of looking at another option to determine if it will be viable for your personal situation.

Here's an idea, if your current employer does not offer health insurance and does not pay enough to afford it, find one that does.

Here's a starter http://www.mcdonalds.com/us/en/careers/benefits.html

yup, even Fry-O-Later operaters get health insurance.

LOL! you didn't read the disclaimer!!!!

*Subject to availability and certain eligibility requirements and restrictions. Talk to your local franchise owner or restaurant manager to learn more.

[Chickenhauler]

LOL! you didn't read the disclaimer!!!!

*Subject to availability and certain eligibility requirements and restrictions. Talk to your local franchise owner or restaurant manager to learn more.

I did, and believe it or not, most McD's offer not only medical, but dental, 401k, profit sharing, flex time, etc etc.

(I visit many McD's around the country in my travels, I have a weakness for their big breakfast burrito's....and I think it's starting to show.....OINK)