New to Daycare - Always in the Swing

[misol]

I could understand this with the swings of years ago where the infant basically sat up, but the swings of today are very much a reclining swing, a least mine is, which makes a big difference. Infants also sleep much better in a reclining position vs laying down. Personally, I feel we all need to do whatever works the best for each individual infant. Not every infant is the same, sleeps the same, etc.

I agree with mac60. The swing that I have holds the baby at about the same angle as if you were holding the sleeping baby in your arms. One of my parents specifically said to put her baby in the swing for a nap Unless licensing prohibits it in your area, I see nothing wrong with letting a baby fall asleep in the right kind of swing.

[momofsix]

Fyi

http://pediatrics.about.com/od/weeklyquestion/a/0707_baby_sleep.htm

Info about sleeping in swings/carseats and cranium deformities and SIDS]

[nannyde]

I agree with mac60. The swing that I have holds the baby at about the same angle as if you were holding the sleeping baby in your arms. One of my parents specifically said to put her baby in the swing for a nap Unless licensing prohibits it in your area, I see nothing wrong with letting a baby fall asleep in the right kind of swing.

Parents can't give you permission to do the wrong thing. They don't get to decide for you to do something that isn't safe. It doesn't matter that they are the parents. They can decide what THEY do but they can't decide what you do if what they decide is wrong.

Babies should sleep FLAT out on their backs. They need gravity to keep their head from jutting forward and cutting off their wind pipes. The only way they can do that is to have their whole bodies laying FLAT. If the angle of their head is above their butts it's not safe.

The ONLY exception would be a medical exception. The child would have to have a note from the Dr. ORDERING them to sleep at an angle or upright position.

For one of the above posters: The difference between cradling a child in your ARMS to the same angle as them sitting in a seat is that you are HOLDING the child the entire time. That way YOU balance the position of their heads in relation to their necks. A swing can't do that. It's an apples and oranges comparison.

[mac60]

This is probably one of those debates that will never be solved. Someone is always going to disagree. And a parent does have and should have the right to say how their baby can and can't sleep, or has the government taken that right of parenting away too.

[jen]

This is probably one of those debates that will never be solved. Someone is always going to disagree. And a parent does have and should have the right to say how their baby can and can't sleep, or has the government taken that right of parenting away too.

Yes, in daycare the parent does loose the right to decide how the baby can and and cannot sleep. Not following the regs regarding this issue has HUGE legal ramification if, God forbid, something terrible should happen.

The debate may never be solved, but the law has been made so there really isn't a debate to be had in this instance.

[Childminder]

If you are licensed in the state of MI and the state inspector walks in you are in violation of the following statue. Doesn't matter to the state what your rationale is for letting a child sleep in a swing. Doesn't have to do with position it has to do with softness of surface. If a child is in your arms 'hopefully' said child is being monitored by caregiver, not so in swing.


R 400.1916 (10-11) Bedding and sleeping equipment.
(10) Infant car seats, infant seats, infant swings, bassinets, highchairs,
waterbeds, adult beds, soft mattresses, sofas, beanbags,
or other soft surfaces are not approved sleeping equipment for
children 24 months of age or younger.
(11) Children 24 months or younger who fall asleep in a space that
is not approved for sleeping shall be moved to approved sleeping
equipment appropriate for their size and age.
Rationale Assures for the safety and well-being of children.
Technical
Assistance
If there is a health issue or special need that requires a child sleep in an
elevated position, documentation from the child's health provider is
required prior to allowing a child to sleep in anything other than a crib
or porta-crib. The documentation must include specific sleeping instructions
and time frames for how long the child needs to sleep in this manner

[mac60]

Yes, in daycare the parent does loose the right to decide how the baby can and and cannot sleep. Not following the regs regarding this issue has HUGE legal ramification if, God forbid, something terrible should happen.

The debate may never be solved, but the law has been made so there really isn't a debate to be had in this instance.

As a parent, it is my right to speak on behalf of my child, or did somewhere the gov't take that away too.

Every child is different in some way, in their sleeping patterns, eating patterns, their disposition, simply every child is different in some way. I have had some parents tell me their child sleeps so much better in a swing or bouncer seat in a reclining position, and that is what they do at home, whether it is because they are congested a lot, or whatever the reason may be. I just feel that a parent should have that right to make those kind of decisions for their own child, and if a parent tells me to let their child sleep in a swing, it is their right to ask me the provider to care for their child as they see fit.

As for the original question of the child appearing to be sleeping in the swing everytime the parent logged on to see in the daycare. I can seriously see that this could "seem like a problem", when it truly isn't. As if the provider attempted to take the child out of the swing and put in crib, the child will more than likely wake up, so the provider then used the swing to get the child to calm down, the child nods off, the provider tries to take them out again, just a potential vicious cycle. If your child appears happy, content and well cared for at the end of the day, is that not the goal of both parent and provider, and it should be of the gov't too.

[jen]

As a parent, it is my right to speak on behalf of my child, or did somewhere the gov't take that away too.

Every child is different in some way, in their sleeping patterns, eating patterns, their disposition, simply every child is different in some way. I have had some parents tell me their child sleeps so much better in a swing or bouncer seat in a reclining position, and that is what they do at home, whether it is because they are congested a lot, or whatever the reason may be. I just feel that a parent should have that right to make those kind of decisions for their own child, and if a parent tells me to let their child sleep in a swing, it is their right to ask me the provider to care for their child as they see fit.

Are you on the food program? Do you follow the rules? I don't personally agree with many of the requirements of the program but as I am utilizing that program I do have to abide by them.

The same goes for being a licensed provider. If you are licensed, then you have to follow the guidelines of that license. The water has be at a certain temperature, you need have the proper paperwork on file, and that includes sleeping arrangements as well.

Is the government taking away your rights or the rights of the parent? Well, yes, but those are the laws and you really, really want to follow them. Seriously, you could land in actual JAIL were you to be found negligent. Parents may tell you one thing, but if their child dies of SIDS in your care, they will be looking for someone to blame and it will be you.

[mac60]

Never said I didn't follow the rules, just that as a parent I should be able to say what is ok or not for my child. And honesly, can anyway say that "yes, every got't rule and regulation is the "right way"? I doubt it.

[nannyde]

This is probably one of those debates that will never be solved. Someone is always going to disagree. And a parent does have and should have the right to say how their baby can and can't sleep, or has the government taken that right of parenting away too.

Mac,

I've lurked on this board for quite a while and just recently started posting. Over the many years of lurking I have found some posters that I really enjoy reading. You are at the top of my fave list I agree with you on almost everything. I don't agree with you on this one.

Here's the deal that many providers don't get: Parents don't have the right to get someone else to do something that's not best practice or safe. There are MANY situations where parents want something for a child but are not physically with the child to be the ONE person who takes responsibility for the decision. As soon as the responsibility becomes SHARED or soley on someone else the parents "rights" diminish greatly. That's because it's not just them that will pay.

In this situation... for example.. even if you had the parents provide "permission" for sleeping in a swing and something happened to the baby... then the PARENTS would most likely not be able to come after you for the death of their baby. The parents, however, can not decide what society or the goverment will do with you for this mistake. The parents can't get the Department of Human Services to not hold you accountable. The parents can't get the child's insurer to not come after you should the child not die but have life altering medical conditions because of a suffocation. The insurer won't give a flip what the parents told you to do. They will want the money for the child's care and they will want that from YOU.

You see there are other entities to consider. The parents are just ONE part of the package of who is affected by something happening to a child. Society, the government, and ANY business that has a financial stake in the child CAN and will make you accountable for the actions YOU take with the child.

See?

That's why I say that parents can't give permission for a provider to do the wrong thing. I can't TELL you how many times I have had parents tell me to do something that I simply can not do. One example was a few years back I had a Mom who wanted her newly turned SIX month old baby switched from formula to whole milk. She got free WIC but she wanted to keep the WIC for her at her house and have me just use milk. The baby was taking enough formula that what WIC gave didn't cover all of it. The Mom wanted ME to switch her to milk so she didn't have to provide formula.

I refused and educated her as to why babies under the age of one can't have whole milk (pernicious anemia, digestion etc.). The Mom insisted that SHE was the Mom and that SHE got to decide. I told her to get me a Doctors note saying that I could give milk. She actually took the kid to the Doc and of course.. the Doc refused to give the note for the same reasons I gave her.

She was furious and did a lot of stomping around because she believed what you believe.... that if she is the parents she should be able to decide. That was fine for when SHE was giving the milk but she couldn't ask ME or the Doc to be a part of doing something that research clearly indicates is not safe for a baby.

Same deal with the swing. It's just not safe to leave babies unattended in a swing sleeping. Their heads are very heavy and gravity can pull that head down. Their little necks and shoulders are not strong enough to RIGHT their head back in position. Having a heavy head jutted forward over the neck can cause the childs wind pipe to collapse and kill the child or cause a lack of oxygen that can permanently damage their brains. It's just not safe. There is a reason the State's one by one are putting it in their regs. It's simple laws of physics that tell you not to allow something heavy (head) over something weak (baby neck) and expect gravity to not take over and cause the big thing to crush the little.

See?

I understand your premise... but now maybe you can see a little different pov. It's a GREAT conversation to have... and I have had it over the years with many an experienced provider like you. Even with a lot of experience and the best interest of the kids.. you still can grow and change your opinions. I hope you do on this one.

Nan

[misol]

I don't think that ONE sleeping position is best for ALL babies. As was said in an earlier post, every child is different in some way. Since the regs in my state (VA) do not specifically prohibit sleeping in swings, my daycare baby sleeps in a swing at the mother's request. Most of the current literature regarding sleeping positions seems to be more about SIDS than about blocked airways. I just checked and there is also nothing in our regs that state that you MUST put sleeping infants on their backs either. I have this written in my own policies, but it is not in our minimum standards. I always put daycare infants to sleep on their backs but when my own two children were infants I regularly put them to sleep on their stomachs (or in a swing). It was their preferred method of sleeping so that's how I let them sleep. That was how my mother let me sleep, and that was how my grandmother let her sleep. Whatever works best for the individual baby and their family.

[nannyde]

I don't think that ONE sleeping position is best for ALL babies. As was said in an earlier post, every child is different in some way. Since the regs in my state (VA) do not specifically prohibit sleeping in swings, my daycare baby sleeps in a swing at the mother's request. Most of the current literature regarding sleeping positions seems to be more about SIDS than about blocked airways. I just checked and there is also nothing in our regs that state that you MUST put sleeping infants on their backs either. I have this written in my own policies, but it is not in our minimum standards. I always put daycare infants to sleep on their backs but when my own two children were infants I regularly put them to sleep on their stomachs (or in a swing). It was their preferred method of sleeping so that's how I let them sleep. That was how my mother let me sleep, and that was how my grandmother let her sleep. Whatever works best for the individual baby and their family.

The risk is your risk to take. As the sole provider of care for the child at that time the decision to allow a "preferred method of sleeping" is something only you can make absent any regulations telling you otherwise.

I don't do what the children want. I do what they need. I also have to consider my livlihood and the future of my family. I wouldn't knowingly do something that would put a child at risk especially when there is a very simple viable option that is endorsed by solid research and the American Academy of Pediatrics. That option is to put them to bed on their backs on a firm bottom without ANYTHING in the bed with them.

I put kids to bed completely wide awake every single day. Day after day after day..... month after month.. year after year. They go to sleep and sleep like little lambs. I can't understand the NEED for swings to lull babies to sleep. It takes such a small amount of time to get them used to motionless, wide awake.. put themselves to sleep sleep.

I've had a number of babies who are "swing and motion" addicted when they come to me but a good solid routine with a ton of exercise and activity quickly changes their need to be put to sleep. Tucker them out... fill their bellies before nap... give em time to poop... and then put them to bed wide awake in a darkened room. Magic formula that works thru the years.

Nan

[Chickenhauler]

No babies should not sleep in a swing. Small babies don't have the strength to hold their heads straight, even when sitting in a reclined position, making it easy for their airways to be blocked. The risk of baby's head falling forward in a way that would affect breathing is one reason why it's important to be sure that the baby is never left unattended in a swing.

That makes sense. Thanks.

And a parent does have and should have the right to say how their baby can and can't sleep, or has the government taken that right of parenting away too.

Regulations like this are in place for two reasons-to protect you the provider (criminal and civilly), and to protect the child....both from people who don't know any better.

Stop and think about this-just because someone squeezes out a kid, does that make them an expert on anatomy, development of anatomy, and biology?

SIDS has been studied by people with WAY more education, time, and expertise in these fields than you, I and the parents combined. They have determined, through years of study, data, and research that certain things increase the risk factors.

If you feel it's OK to ignore the law and put your freedom (ever done time for negligent manslaughter?) and life's savings on the line, feel free to do so.

Were it me, if a parent asked me to go against the law of the land for their child, I'd require a doctors written note to back it up and a signed release by the parent.

It's about limiting liability.

[mac60]

That makes sense. Thanks.



Regulations like this are in place for two reasons-to protect you the provider (criminal and civilly), and to protect the child....both from people who don't know any better.

Stop and think about this-just because someone squeezes out a kid, does that make them an expert on anatomy, development of anatomy, and biology?

SIDS has been studied by people with WAY more education, time, and expertise in these fields than you, I and the parents combined. They have determined, through years of study, data, and research that certain things increase the risk factors.

If you feel it's OK to ignore the law and put your freedom (ever done time for negligent manslaughter?) and life's savings on the line, feel free to do so.

Were it me, if a parent asked me to go against the law of the land for their child, I'd require a doctors written note to back it up and a signed release by the parent.

It's about limiting liability.

Who said anything about ignoring the law, doing time for negligent manslaughter.........I only said that the government gets into our business way too much.

[Crystal]

Nanny...thank you for making my argument me....you said it all very well, and I agree with you 100%.