Another Child Touched My Son at Daycare

[Cat Herder]

It appear unregistered is located in Minnesota:

Minnesota Rules, part 9502.0315 DEFINITIONS.
Subp. 29a. Supervision. "Supervision" means a caregiver being within sight or hearing of an infant, toddler, or preschooler at all times so that the caregiver is capable of intervening to protect the health and safety of the child. [B]For the school age child, it means a caregiver being available for assistance and care so that the child's health and safety is protected.

Yikes!!! So as long as she was home they could go anywhere they wanted within yelling distance? They could be playing at the neighbors in theory.

[jen]

Yikes!!! So as long as she was home they could go anywhere they wanted within yelling distance? They could be playing at the neighbors in theory.

Yep...in MN we can let our school agers go for bike rides, go to the park, etc. as long as we have a permission slip to allow them to do so. I have a 5th going in to 6th grader who is the same age as my son. They frequently go to the park across the street or ride their bikes around the neighborhood. I've got a permission slip from Mom and the States OK.

Where I have issues with this is: common sense tells me that a 5th or 6th grader is one thing, but a kindergardener is another. BUT...a child is considered school age here in May the summer before they start school. YIKES.

I'd still pull a child if I found out my provider failed to tell me about a situation such as this. I'm the parent, I want to use this as a teaching opportunity with my child. I'd be livid if I found out a provider kept something like this from me.

[Unregistered]

Thanks for the replies. the situation has repeated itself today as I was notified by my dc. two children alone but being watched by dc so she could understand what is happening. My daughter was the instigator (ugh!) and played games to get boy to play the "tickle game". He didn't tickle her private part and she in turn grabbed his private part and the boy said "ouch" DC intervened immediately and separate children to talk to them.
I still can't believe this happened today.

SO...my daughter still sticks to her story that its a game and just with this boy. She said no one taught her this and she's very sorry. This morning she said she will not play that game anymore but she did the first chance when they were alone.

DC thinks someone that knows my daughter outside of dc is abusing or teaching her these games. She still says no one taught her. DC wants me to put daughter in scenarios where I can get proof that something wrong is going on. How am I supposed to do that? Set up family members with nanny cams and monitors and wait to see what happens? Oh I'm sure my sanity will stay in tact during this process.

daughter is very upset about it. She's afraid she's going to get in trouble. Says she loves me, can't tell me, doesn't know who taught her this game, no one taught her this game, just the kids at dc. She requested I take her to a girl police officer tonight and could I help her talk to them to tell them what happened? WHAT?! what if she says a name and I find out someone is hurting my child? Police have obligations. But they were great to her and her story remained the same and wanted to make sure she wasn't in trouble. They told her she was very brave. They would make sure she is safe and help her anyway they could. They took her on a tour of the station, gave her police tattoos and a teddy bear that she went to sleep with and is holding on tight. They are going to set me up with Child resources at a hospital and advised not to go to dc until further notice. On the way home she asked me what did the police tell you when they talked to you. I told her that they said she gets to stay home tomorrow as today was a tough day and we are to do something fun and be happy.

My husband and I are beside ourselves in confusion. How? Why? Is there a who? and Now What?

so there you have it...that's the story and as of the moment, my 5 yr old daughter is sticking to it.

[dEHmom]

Thanks for the replies. the situation has repeated itself today as I was notified by my dc. two children alone but being watched by dc so she could understand what is happening. My daughter was the instigator (ugh!) and played games to get boy to play the "tickle game". He didn't tickle her private part and she in turn grabbed his private part and the boy said "ouch" DC intervened immediately and separate children to talk to them.
I still can't believe this happened today.

SO...my daughter still sticks to her story that its a game and just with this boy. She said no one taught her this and she's very sorry. This morning she said she will not play that game anymore but she did the first chance when they were alone.

DC thinks someone that knows my daughter outside of dc is abusing or teaching her these games. She still says no one taught her. DC wants me to put daughter in scenarios where I can get proof that something wrong is going on. How am I supposed to do that? Set up family members with nanny cams and monitors and wait to see what happens? Oh I'm sure my sanity will stay in tact during this process.

daughter is very upset about it. She's afraid she's going to get in trouble. Says she loves me, can't tell me, doesn't know who taught her this game, no one taught her this game, just the kids at dc. She requested I take her to a girl police officer tonight and could I help her talk to them to tell them what happened? WHAT?! what if she says a name and I find out someone is hurting my child? Police have obligations. But they were great to her and her story remained the same and wanted to make sure she wasn't in trouble. They told her she was very brave. They would make sure she is safe and help her anyway they could. They took her on a tour of the station, gave her police tattoos and a teddy bear that she went to sleep with and is holding on tight. They are going to set me up with Child resources at a hospital and advised not to go to dc until further notice. On the way home she asked me what did the police tell you when they talked to you. I told her that they said she gets to stay home tomorrow as today was a tough day and we are to do something fun and be happy.

My husband and I are beside ourselves in confusion. How? Why? Is there a who? and Now What?

so there you have it...that's the story and as of the moment, my 5 yr old daughter is sticking to it.

wow! I am so sorry you are going through this. Sometimes children overhear things that the adults have no idea is going on. They could be laying in their beds, and everyone thinks they are asleep and they are not.

It is possible that if she's seen a nudie magazine, movie etc hidden somewhere, they can get a few ideas about sex and different scenarios. Or if someone has told a dirty joke, or story, they may have overheard it. There's so many what ifs. I hope everything works out well for you and your family. Best of luck

[Geegee]

I am now registered as I think this place is going to help me get through this.
FYI - she is not returning to dc. DC says it was right after breakfast that my daughter wanted to go downstairs. I know my child enough to confidently say that she did not wake up Monday morning and thought of this game herself. I agree that it could be so many reasons or impressions of where she learned this. What bothers me is dc insisting that sex abuse is involved. Don't insist until it is confirmed. I will also not set my child up in scenario that may cause possible further harm.

What bothers me is that regardless if she can't remember "who started it" or how she learned it, or that she's afraid to tell me is that she insists she learned it at dc. That's all I need to hear to know that it is not a safe place for her to be and obviously not enough distractions and supervision to prevent this sort of activity.

I contacted a summer program and they have been very helpful so should have a new place for her with lots of kids, lots of distractions and hopefully answers by then or at least a plan of moving forward with minimal or no damage to my child.

[Cat Herder]

Children's sexual development has normal age appropriate milestones just like their ability to read, write and count.

I don't know why it is so taboo to address it... :confused:

Masturbation is natural, kids don't see it as an ethical or moral issue. Mutual masturbation within groups of kids that are inappropriately supervised is going to occur. Think "Blue Lagoon".

Check out some books on Anthropology of other cultures where it is normal and expected. This is a human trait.

This is a good place to start.

http://kidshealth.org/parent/growth/sexual_health/development.html

Obviously be aware of any signs of abuse, but some can really over react to all things sexual in our culture. :confused:

[MN Mom]

Children's sexual development has normal age appropriate milestones just like their ability to read, write and count.

I don't know why it is so taboo to address it... :confused:

Masturbation is natural, kids don't see it as an ethical or moral issue. Mutual masturbation within groups of kids that are inappropriately supervised is going to occur. Think "Blue Lagoon".

Check out some books on Anthropology of other cultures where it is normal and expected. This is a human trait.

This is a good place to start.

http://kidshealth.org/parent/growth/sexual_health/development.html

Obviously be aware of any signs of abuse, but some can really over react to all things sexual in our culture. :confused:

This! I took quite a few human sexuality courses in college. Children are not oblivious to sexual desires or play. Once they figure out something feels good, they do it, and have no idea or concept of the social stigma attached. It could be solo our group play, and its more common than you think.

Think about it...little kids like to mimic their elders.
They play house.
There is a mommy and daddy in a house.
The mommy and daddy have babies (some 5 year olds know HOW to mimic the whole process)
Mommy and daddy sometimes kiss.

etc.....

I'm not saying there isn't sexual abuse going on...I'm just agreeing with those who realize this is also NORMAL childhood behavior.

[Blackcat31]

I had a little boy a few years back when I first opened who had told his dad (a 6'5" State Trooper with a VERY somber personality) that another dcb asked to see his privates. So this dad in all his authority called me at home late in the evening and asked if we could talk...gulp....

He told me how another kid had showed another kid their privates and now this same kid had asked him to show his privates. All these boys were the same age. I talked wiht the dad about normal behavior and all and how there is no way anything funky could possibly be going on since my daycare homeis fairly small and wide open so I have no little nooks and crannies where "funny stuff" can happen without me being aware of it. Of course, sexual abuse and good/bad touch and the whole nine yards came up. After a tense conversation, in which I felt completely interogated (minus any water boarding...LOL!!! ) we hung up and left any further discussion/investigation to continue for the next day.

So the next day during drop off, all three boys happen to be there at the same time with parents.....I thought that it was the perfect opportunity to talk with parents and boys together so I asked the "offending" child why he had asked Mr. State Trooper's son to see his privates and without any hesitation the kid says "Well, he keeps saying he has a spiderman tatoo and I don't see one so it must be under his underwear so I wanted him to show me."

Perfect example of how we, as adults read into things when sometimes the situation needs to be looked at through a child's perspective and anyone who knows anything about cognitive and emotional/social development knows a child's perspective vs an adult's perspective is sooooo far apart it isn't even comparable.

[Country Kids]

When you asked the offender in front of all the parents didn't you violate the privacy act of letting the parent know who did it. What I don't get about how we aren't suppose to tell the parents who did what is because all they have to do is ask the child and they will tell you.

[Blackcat31]

When you asked the offender in front of all the parents didn't you violate the privacy act of letting the parent know who did it. What I don't get about how we aren't suppose to tell the parents who did what is because all they have to do is ask the child and they will tell you.

Nah, these kids were friends and each kid was old enough to be verbal so it was the kids themselves that told their parents who it was, I only finished up the situation. Had the families not known who or whom, I would never have said anything. But good point, I try not to say who did what but in a small family daycare, keeping that kind of privacy is next to impossible so I try to never be the one who says names but once a kid lets the cat out of the bag, all's fair game.

[Geegee]

the reason we took the escalator to a higher level is because dc says she had a strong sense from actions and answers from questions that my daughter was being abused. Not just by anyone but by a family member, this is a serious allegation. She has been a dc for 30+ years and was telling me the horror stories and that I needed a plan. So what I initially determined a game of show me, I'll show you took a quick turn.

A situation was created at dc so the environment invited repeat behavior. I was informed that children were not going to be left alone. i found out that this was not the case. They were left alone and my daughter wanted to play the game again. I am the one now who does not feel safe with my child being there. I want her to be in an environment that is supervised and will not promote behavior. They were probably bored and thought of something new and interesting. And yes who knows where they mimiced it from and now from my week's experience I have the tool and resources to teach and learn more so our family can grow from this.

So I am over-reacting to wanting to move her to an alternative dc after this?

[Cat Herder]

the reason we took the escalator to a higher level is because dc says she had a strong sense from actions and answers from questions that my daughter was being abused. Not just by anyone but by a family member, this is a serious allegation. She has been a dc for 30+ years and was telling me the horror stories and that I needed a plan. So what I initially determined a game of show me, I'll show you took a quick turn.

A situation was created at dc so the environment invited repeat behavior. I was informed that children were not going to be left alone. i found out that this was not the case. They were left alone and my daughter wanted to play the game again. I am the one now who does not feel safe with my child being there. I want her to be in an environment that is supervised and will not promote behavior. They were probably bored and thought of something new and interesting. And yes who knows where they mimiced it from and now from my week's experience I have the tool and resources to teach and learn more so our family can grow from this.

So I am over-reacting to wanting to move her to an alternative dc after this?

Oh, hun.... NO, I meant the provider may have over-reacted...not you. It is common for people to assume the worst when it comes to sexual behavior.

I still think you made the right choice.

I wanted you to read the article so you felt more comfortable knowing that most of what your daughter was initiating was normal, expected behavior. I did not want you to feel you were somehow to blame or she was somehow wrong for it.

If there was other stuff...that should ALWAYS be investigated.

[Blackcat31]

the reason we took the escalator to a higher level is because dc says she had a strong sense from actions and answers from questions that my daughter was being abused. Not just by anyone but by a family member, this is a serious allegation. She has been a dc for 30+ years and was telling me the horror stories and that I needed a plan. So what I initially determined a game of show me, I'll show you took a quick turn.

A situation was created at dc so the environment invited repeat behavior. I was informed that children were not going to be left alone. i found out that this was not the case. They were left alone and my daughter wanted to play the game again. I am the one now who does not feel safe with my child being there. I want her to be in an environment that is supervised and will not promote behavior. They were probably bored and thought of something new and interesting. And yes who knows where they mimiced it from and now from my week's experience I have the tool and resources to teach and learn more so our family can grow from this.

So I am over-reacting to wanting to move her to an alternative dc after this?

No, you are NOT crazy for wanting to move her. I would have done the exact thing. I think that you will find that your daughter will behave differently in a different setting so that is good. Plus you will get another perspective. Kind of like what you were saying about an environment that "allows" this to happen/continue. I know allow isn't the right word but I think you know what I mean.

I also want to say that just because she has been in the biz for 30+ years does not make her an expert unless she is educated and trained in diagnosing and stating things as such. I have heard all sorts of things from kids...things I probably shouldn't hear but I do not immediately think that it means abuse let alone being wise or educated enough to state that it was from a family member? I wonder how she came to this conclusion without ever having brought to your attention the things said by your daughter that led her to believe she was sexually abused by a family member.

[nannyde]

the reason we took the escalator to a higher level is because dc says she had a strong sense from actions and answers from questions that my daughter was being abused. Not just by anyone but by a family member, this is a serious allegation. She has been a dc for 30+ years and was telling me the horror stories and that I needed a plan. So what I initially determined a game of show me, I'll show you took a quick turn.

A situation was created at dc so the environment invited repeat behavior. I was informed that children were not going to be left alone. i found out that this was not the case. They were left alone and my daughter wanted to play the game again. I am the one now who does not feel safe with my child being there. I want her to be in an environment that is supervised and will not promote behavior. They were probably bored and thought of something new and interesting. And yes who knows where they mimiced it from and now from my week's experience I have the tool and resources to teach and learn more so our family can grow from this.

So I am over-reacting to wanting to move her to an alternative dc after this?

It's a common thought that children this age SHOULD be able to play without having an adult directly supervising them. The truth is that once you get to age five their need for visual and auditory supervision INCREASES not decreases. In child care they need IMHO an adult within a few feet of them at all times.

Once these kids had ONE incident she should have NEVER allowed them alone unsupervised. When kids tell you what they will do you HAVE to believe it.

Don't let her bully you into thinking this whole thing generates from your home life or your world. She may be right but at this point you don't have any way to know. You have asked for help and will keep your ears open and your radar set on high. You may get an answer... you may not.

One of the biggest problems in child care is providers wanting the job to be easier than it really is. Down through the ages we have been taught that the older a kid gets the less adult they need. Our regulations sanction that with very high child to adult ratios after the age of five in most states.

It may have been true back in the day when there was a societal understanding that stuff was going to happen and kids were going to get in trouble or get hurt. It USED to be okay for kids to be bored and have to find their own entertainment.

Now we have a generation where the cost of ANYTHING happening is so high. We also have a generation of kids who have been raised on VERY high stimulation (tv, video games, noise toys, adults playing with them and "educating" them at a really young age). To expect that once they hit five or older that now they can HANDLE making their own entertainment and having LESS adult is seriously rediculous. We have bred kids that get needier and require more supervision as they age ... NOT LESS.

There's a reason why SO many providers don't take school aged kids. I'm NOT knocking you as a parent... don't think that at all. I'm just saying that we all need to have some REAL conversations about the REAL side effects of the way kids are being raised these days EVERYWHERE they go... not just home.

If we don't get back to good sleep, good exercise, good nutrition, good supervision, self entertainment etc... we will end up with incidences like this happening younger and younger when the kids are bored. We will also end up with a ton of providers who can't accept the work that needs to be done and the level of care these kids need.

Kids have to be TAUGHT how to self entertain and how to need less adult. You have to supervise them until they actually can do it. Adults need to recognize when they really CAN do it and when they can't. These two CAN'T. That's a fact.

Your daughter may have had something happen to her ... and that you need to stay steady on ... but there is a good chance that these kids have been left unsupervised for a LONG time every day and they have come to this behavior because they are unable to really entertain themselves. They both may not be capable of coming up with acceptable LOW stimulus play so when put together they go to this to just have something EXCITING to do.

I'm just guessing... so just put my advice in a little corner of your brain. Listen to what she has said as a possiblity and what I have said as a possiblity.

[Geegee]

Oh, hun.... NO, I meant the provider may have over-reacted...not you. It is common for people to assume the worst when it comes to sexual behavior.

I still think you made the right choice.

I wanted you to read the article so you felt more comfortable knowing that most of what your daughter was initiating was normal, expected behavior. I did not want you to feel you were somehow to blame or she was somehow wrong for it.

If there was other stuff...that should ALWAYS be investigated.

Thank you! I was reading as much as I could find last night about articles related to the one you shared. and each time i was thinking, but she's normal why all this fuss? But me being a determined and protective mother of someone who is labeling my child as an abuse victim I'm going to do something about it and go to resources who know how to deal with this. The woman who met with my daughter was so good with her and also amazing with me. I'm a first time mom and growing up we did not discuss body parts or what boundaries are. I haven't seen my first What's a Boy? What's a Girl movie until I was in 4th grade. OH so you can teach body parts to children?! How come I didn't know this? I'm SO glad I know now and even more relieved!

I have to send a termination letter tomorrow. My dc has provided care for my daughter since she's been 4 months old and I'm grateful for the such care and want to be considerate in the delivery. I am not giving 2 weeks notice as daughter will not be returning. Not sure based on the situation if she's going to demand it 2 weeks pay. I don't want to tell her that the police and a counselor advised immediate removal. My husband and I will sacrifice the cost as it doesn't matter in the end as having our daughter in a safe environment is priceless.