I Need Help With Difficult Child

[awestbrook713]

I have posted before about this child but she has gotten extremely worse and I am at a loss. Heres the problem: Child is a 3 yr old female who was potty trained but then started having accidents frequently. Parents have split up, both dating new people, and she is about to start headstart in two weeks. When I first started watching this child she was in pull ups over night and we would try underwear while she was here, if she had a bad day (meaning 3 or more accidents) we would put her in a pull up for the rest of the day. I used praise and made a big deal when she went in the potty and didn't have accidents and we had quick conversations asking what happened when she had an accident. Within the last two weeks she has gone from just having accidents to constant accidents to constant accidents and refusal to having her pull up changed and her self cleaned up. Last week I had two really bad days with her, the one I changed her twice and was lucky to get her changed that many times. When told its time to get changed she will refuse to go into the bathroom start crying and repeat over and over again that her pull up is clean. I give her to the count of 5 to start walking to the bathroom, if that doesn't work I have to carry her and she is usually screaming and kicking me. When we get to the bathroom she has spagetti legs can't stand and continues screaming. If I get her to stand and start to help her get her pants and pull up down she will be fighting to pull them back up. When I finally get the pull up off there is both poop and pee filling it. I will place her on the potty so if she has to go anymore she can go before getting the clean pull up. Then I clean her off, put the new pull up on and send her out to the living room while I dispose of the old pull up. I come out and sit next to her and try to talk to her about what would help her to start going in the potty again. These episodes have become so extreme I have had to put her in timeout after to show her its not appropriate to act this way and she fights me on this as well.
The only experiance I have with potty training is my own two boys I potty trained and they were trained shortly after they turned two and were fairly easy.
I am looking for advice on how to help her get back on track, and any opinions on what I am doing wrong. The headstart she is going to apparently has a potty training program and I am hoping it helps. I have spoken to mom and dad and both say they are having the same problems (except last friday when mom and dad were both here at the same time and dad told mom the child has been doing great at his house). Mom thinks it is because she has 3 different places with 3 different systems, her house, dads house, and mine, with number 4 soon to be added (headstart). Would it be out of line to ask both parents to have a meeting with me where we can discuss what they want done and how. I am also concerned she may not be able to stay at headstart because of the extreme behavior and then I will have her 4 days a week for 10 hours a day while mom and dad work. I currently have my own 7 month old and will have a new born from another mom in 2 months and can not be stuck in a bathroom trying to get her cleaned up for 20 minutes with 2 infants to take care of as well.
I think her recent change may have a lot to do with the upcoming headstart, she has had a lot of pressure put on her about not being able to go if she doesn't learn to go potty in the toilet and that she needs to be a big girl. During one of last weeks episodes she cried over and over again for 10 minutes straight before being changed during and after " I want to be a big girl!" I told her she could be a big girl but that was up to her. Its almost as if she thinks if we don't see the dirty pull up shes being a big girl but when we want to change her she knows we are going to find the mess and she is disappointed in herself. Friday was so bad I tried to change her because you could smell she had gone and after running around playing it had leaked from her pull up, she refused and I was at my limit and just don't feel comfortable trying to wrestle with a 3 yr old to change a pull up when they aren't my child. I wouldn't allow her to slide down the slide outside because of the mess and when she came inside she wasn't allowed on the furniture and had to sit on a mat that I could disinfect later.
Sorry this was so long any and all help and advice is appreciated, this girl is so sweet but I am lost and don't know how to help her anymore, I am afraid I may have to terminate if something isn't figured out.

[blessedmess8]

I've dealt with this before and you are probably getting in to some psychological issues here that are beyond your control. E things that initially come to mind are: 1. Her world is changing and one thing she has any control over is her bowels. SHE gets to say when and where they happen. Sounds weird, but when she can't control anything else in her environment, that's the one thing she can. 2. She is going back to a place (being a baby - wearing a diaper) where things were safe and normal in her life. Regression is completely normal in a divorce situation. Divorce wreaks havock on kids at any age. I unfortunately know this first hand. Kids don't understand their feelings and don't know how to sort them out so they can emerge in all kinds of behaviors!
I would talk to the parents. Gather some literature on how divorce effects kids and how to help them cope. Don't be accusatory, but come at it from an angle of concern for the child and what all THREE of you can do to get on the same page and help her. (Doesn't mean it will happen, but you can try!) Get some children's books from the library to read with her about divorce. There are some great titles out there and it will help her label her feelings.
Unfortunately, these things take time. You very well may not be able to meet her needs if it continues. Losing you would probably be so hard on her, as you have probably been a constant through this ordeal, but you are only one person and if no one will get on board with you to help her through this, it may end up being too much for you!

[awestbrook713]

I already know talking to these parents would be a lost cause. I try to keep them informed of how she is doing and they just seem to be in their own little worlds. With mom and dad both in new relationships and moms bf just moved in they both seem more involved in their social life then in their childrens lives. I think they are good parents, just a little confused at the moment. I know I am a constant in her life and she likes me and coming to my house for daycare, shes told me so. I don't want to throw another change at her that is why I am putting up with so much even though I feel overwhelmed and a little frustratated. I will go to the library like you said, the next few weeks I will have a smaller group since school is starting and headstart starts 2 weeks later, so I am really gonna focus on her and try to help her alittle bit at a time. thanks for the advice!

[blessedmess8]

I already know talking to these parents would be a lost cause. I try to keep them informed of how she is doing and they just seem to be in their own little worlds. With mom and dad both in new relationships and moms bf just moved in they both seem more involved in their social life then in their childrens lives. I think they are good parents, just a little confused at the moment. I know I am a constant in her life and she likes me and coming to my house for daycare, shes told me so. I don't want to throw another change at her that is why I am putting up with so much even though I feel overwhelmed and a little frustratated. I will go to the library like you said, the next few weeks I will have a smaller group since school is starting and headstart starts 2 weeks later, so I am really gonna focus on her and try to help her alittle bit at a time. thanks for the advice!

I commend you! You are taking on a lot, but you are making a difference in her life!! You are clearly a great provider and they are all lucky to have you!

[nannyde]

I would first have her fully go back into diapers.

Secondly my mission would be that she mind me and come to the changing area... lay down... and have a diaper change when she needs one. THAT would be the ONLY thing I would do now.

She's not toilet trained. She's not "training". She needs to be put back completely into diapers and wait a few months and then start over fresh. If they want to train her at Head Start and home with pull ups that's on them.

At my house she would be fully in diapers and I would COMPLETELY stop putting her on the toilet unless she asked to go on it. I would NOT have discussions about ANYTHING but her laying down and getting her diaper changed when I tell her to without fighting.

This kid is sorting chaos. Get the chaos completely gone and re-establish a caring, nurturing, and even babying with her if that is what it takes.

I'm honestly a little suspicious that something isn't going on with her. The visciousness about moving her clothing/pullups that ultimately leads to her being naked from the waist down and being touched with wipes to clean... makes me hope and pray that someone in her life isn't acting inappropriately with her.

When you do change her do an assessment of her and let the mom know if there is an excoriation, rash, or if she starts doing any rubbing or shows sign of irritation. I would be on super red alert with her and document.

[blessedmess8]

I'm honestly a little suspicious that something isn't going on with her. The visciousness about moving her clothing/pullups that ultimately leads to her being naked from the waist down and being touched with wipes to clean... makes me hope and pray that someone in her life isn't acting inappropriately with her.

When you do change her do an assessment of her and let the mom know if there is an excoriation, rash, or if she starts doing any rubbing or shows sign of irritation. I would be on super red alert with her and document.

I had that thought, too, unfortunately. (Comes with seeing too many abuse cases) Especially with the introduction of new people in her life. I would document her behavior as well, on a daily basis.

[SilverSabre25]

I second a lot of what nannyde said.

When you said, "She's under a lot of pressure..." that was the key for me. Three year olds are complicated creatures, and don't always respond well to pressure. Someone in her life has probably made this either a) a power struggle or b) punished/punishes her for the accidents. She really does think that if you don't change her/see the mess, then you won't know. She's trying to avoid the punishment, the shaming that has undoubtedly been used. She might be so worked up about avoiding the accidents that it's actually causing them.

I would STOP the struggles. Get her to at least agree to being laid down and changed like she's wearing a diaper. Make NO mention of big girl or baby or anything, just let her be where she is right now. If being taken to the bathroom is part of the trouble, just bring a mat and change her wherever she is, if that's what works.

[Blackcat31]

I agree with Nan and Silver. I think there might be more to the story.

I also think Silver is right about the fact that she is more than likely being punished for having an accident and trying to simply "ignore" it buy saying she is dry when she is not. Then she gets put in time-out (punished) for her struggling with you, so in her mind just being punished for all things toilet related. She cannot differentiate between being punished for wetting herself or for the struggle, to her it is punishment attached to the whole toileting process.

She needs to go back to diapers and simply start all over until she is emotionally and mentally ready to complete the process. Having moved to so many different care facilities is definitley not helping her feel stable and secure. Poor child.

[awestbrook713]

Reading that you guys suspect something makes me feel that much more worse because as loving as the parents appear here when picking her up I can't say the thought hasn't crossed my mind. I am sure to check her when cleaning her up just in case and have not witnessed any physical proof. Underwear is not being sent any longer she is strictly in pull ups at the moment.
Mom says that her big sister went through the same thing, so punishment for accidents just might be the problem. The fact that both children have gone through the same thing makes me think the potty training technique is not the best. She will be here tomorrow and I will only have 4 kids since school starts tomorrow. We will start with the changing out in the living room on a mat and see if this helps her.

[awestbrook713]

Oh and one more thing mom told me last friday that she has been giving the child apple juice alot because she thinks she is trying to hold her bowels and not go and she doesn't want her to get bound up like her sister use to, so this kid is being given large amounts of apple juice and might not be able to hold her bowel movements or control them, she gets mostly milk or water here with the occasional apple juice or cranberry apple juice.
I always know when she is messing herself because she will go off by herself and hit her knees and just sit there for a bit by herself and then get up and go back to playing. I have gone over to her and asked if she needed help or what shes up to but she just says "nothing".

[mickey2]

I'm honestly a little suspicious that something isn't going on with her. The visciousness about moving her clothing/pullups that ultimately leads to her being naked from the waist down and being touched with wipes to clean... makes me hope and pray that someone in her life isn't acting inappropriately with her.

When you do change her do an assessment of her and let the mom know if there is an excoriation, rash, or if she starts doing any rubbing or shows sign of irritation. I would be on super red alert with her and document.

My first thought as soon as I read your post, before reading any other comments. I would suspect abuse. I have experienced it before!

[momma2girls]

I would first have her fully go back into diapers.

Secondly my mission would be that she mind me and come to the changing area... lay down... and have a diaper change when she needs one. THAT would be the ONLY thing I would do now.

She's not toilet trained. She's not "training". She needs to be put back completely into diapers and wait a few months and then start over fresh. If they want to train her at Head Start and home with pull ups that's on them.

At my house she would be fully in diapers and I would COMPLETELY stop putting her on the toilet unless she asked to go on it. I would NOT have discussions about ANYTHING but her laying down and getting her diaper changed when I tell her to without fighting.

This kid is sorting chaos. Get the chaos completely gone and re-establish a caring, nurturing, and even babying with her if that is what it takes.

I'm honestly a little suspicious that something isn't going on with her. The visciousness about moving her clothing/pullups that ultimately leads to her being naked from the waist down and being touched with wipes to clean... makes me hope and pray that someone in her life isn't acting inappropriately with her.

When you do change her do an assessment of her and let the mom know if there is an excoriation, rash, or if she starts doing any rubbing or shows sign of irritation. I would be on super red alert with her and document.

I agree with Nanny de on this!! She needs to be placed in diapers if not completely potty trained, this means goes on their own, without reminders from myself

[awestbrook713]

Update on this girl. I am floored she just came over told me she had to go to the bathroom went in and did it all by herself. I had asked mom how she was doing and mom said she just decided to start over she wasn't going to yell or get upset with her she was just gonna let her do it how she wanted. I must say it must have worked, she has down a complete turn around, I am hoping this continues today.

[Blackcat31]

Update on this girl. I am floored she just came over told me she had to go to the bathroom went in and did it all by herself. I had asked mom how she was doing and mom said she just decided to start over she wasn't going to yell or get upset with her she was just gonna let her do it how she wanted. I must say it must have worked, she has down a complete turn around, I am hoping this continues today.

That's great! Maybe it was all about the punishment then? Or maybe it was a control issue and now that the child has been given the control she feels better about the whole thing and is now willing to use the toilet.

At this point, if I were you, I would make sure that you give her lots of positive reinforcement and praise for using the toilet; especially when she does without being prompted. Support her efforts, not necessarily just the results.

[awestbrook713]

I let her know how proud I was with a high five and told her how awesome I think did. I am just gonna let her be for the most part because I don't want to add any pressure. I want her to feel its her decision and either way I will be here to help her.