Okay-Here's A Good One! So Mad!

[Crystal]

Ya know Live and Learn, your username is PERFECT for this situation!

[nannyde]

Oh my goodness-at what age would a child be able to go into the bathroom by themselves in your childcare? Would you even have to accompany a SA child in? What do you mean you aren't able to watch children over the age of 4? Where do they go after that? I don't even know if I would do childcare with all those regulations?

I just care for birth to five so I don't know about SA kids. I would think they would be the most risky group.

[Cat Herder]

Oh my goodness-at what age would a child be able to go into the bathroom by themselves in your childcare? Would you even have to accompany a SA child in? What do you mean you aren't able to watch children over the age of 4? Where do they go after that? I don't even know if I would do childcare with all those regulations?

Kids go to free preschool here at age 4. It is state funded with many being at the Elementary Schools and large commercial centers. Very few small daycares can keep kids past 4 here.

We can't compete with free and the State makes it nearly impossible to since they WANT them in the Pre-k programs.

School agers go to the after school programs also offered by the state at their own public schools WITH tutors available for a minimal fee ($35 week).

Here the standard home daycare is birth to 4, anything else is virtually impossible and not financially feasible.

[Lucy]

The parents should not be made to pay you anything. The way I see it, it was your responsibility to recognize the potential problem (you had a few clues) and change something to prevent a bigger problem from happening. Not trying to beat you while you're down, but just giving my thoughts after stopping to think what I would do in the situation.

Here, they go potty on their own by about age 4 1/2, but they are not allowed to fully close the door. They push it till it touches the door jam, but not pushed all the way shut. (Hope that made sense!) There is a mirror positioned just right, and if I look through the crack of the door, I can see (via the mirror) just their head and back sitting on the potty. I can determine whether they are doing their business, or messing around. If they are in there for more than the appropriate time, I stand in the hall and ask how they're doing. Not in an accusing way, but enough to let them know that I am aware of the fact that they're taking a long time. Most will say "I'm pooping!" and usually I can tell that they are because I smell it. LOL.

Anyway, point being, I afford them what they see as "privacy", but I am in reality closely supervising them. Best of both worlds.

Personally, I would NEVER let two boys go to the bathroom together. Not for any nudity reasons or anything, but because boys are notoriously naughty when they get together unsupervised. Just the nature of the beast. In fact, I have a "one person in the bathroom at a time" rule.

Just my thoughts. Sorry this happened to you.

[Preschool/daycare teacher]

So there have been a few threads lately about rude parents and people forgetting their manners. I have one. Before I say more, let me say that I love these kids and their mother and the dad might be okay, too, if he just learned some better communications skills. Maybe I shouldn't even be mad, but here goes: (sorry it will be long)

So I have two 4-year old boys here (my DS and a dcb). The only bathroom in my house is one level up from the daycare play area. Most of the time, the boys go potty when we are going outside/coming in, etc. Except before nap. After lunch, they go up alone together. I am in and out bringing up lunch dishes and food, so I do check on them, and the bathroom is right at the top of the stairs so they are within hearing at all times. Well, a few weeks ago, we started having problems. First it was toilet paper all over the bathroom, then shoved in the sink with the sink turned on. Then it was wet toilet paper stuck to the ceiling (). We had a few talks with dcm and dcd and made some new rules regarding toilet paper, etc. I also stopped letting them go in the bathroom together. One sat at the top of the stairs while the other went in and then they switched. Things got better and I made MANY more visits. Well, then, every time dcb was in there almost a whole roll of toilet paper would be gone! So we chatted AGAIN! Then, a hook we had on the wall to hold towels was pulled out of the wall. He admitted to hanging on it-so we chatted again.

Fast forward to yesterday. Somehow, dcb put a whole mega roll of tp into the toilet (the majority still on the roll-I had checked on him 30 seconds before he came back down) and flushed. I didn't realize until it was raining in my basement! I ran up, turned off the water, unclogged the toilet, etc. There was standing water in my bathroom, hallway, and dining room. The basement ceiling was leaking in the laundry room, daycare area, and a closet. I wiped it all up, and my DH called a water damage place. They came out to assess right away.

We have at least $3500 worth of damage to our floors, ceilings, cabinets, baseboards, walls, and carpet. They came last night to install super drying equipment, which will take at least 4 days. That covers the $3500. Then, they may have to replace carpet, baseboards, cabinets, etc. They may even have to rip down walls and ceilings, so that will cost MUCH MUCH more! Their equipment alone is in 1/2 of our house, and they had to put up temporary walls to block off 1/2 of the daycare. It is also 85 degrees in here from their equipment. The stuff is extensive-they even had to drill holes in our tile floor every 6 inches to let it air out! Not just some big fans-major work! I almost had to close daycare for the rest of the week, but we are managing okay today.

Anyway, I talked to the dcd, and he just said, "Honey, we only use a little toilet paper next time, okay? Okay, let's go, we are going out to dinner!" Then, this morning at drop off he said, "Well, lucky kids, you get to play upstairs today! Have a good day and be good! Bye!" NOTHING to me! Nothing like I'm sorry my kid caused $3500-10,000+ damage to your home. NOTHING at all! What do I do? What would you say? I'm speechless! I'm tempted to tell them that I can't take them for the rest of the week so they have to find alternate care, but I really don't know what to do! What would you do?

Im not seeing this as a lack of supervision thing. As I bolded, she said she had just checked on him 30 seconds prior. She's trying to supervise 7 children. He's 4 yrs old. 4! In my opinion, 4 yr olds are fully capable of going potty alone. Yes, he's shown he can't be trusted in the bathroom alone and she knew she couldn't trust him so she went to check on him. 30 seconds later he comes out. I don't know about all of your regulations, but in my state children have to be in sight OR hearing at all times. He was within hearing distance, she mentioned this in her post. And he did it all in under 30 seconds. It goes to show that it doesn't have to take a long span of time of unsupervision for something to happen. It just takes a second. It sounds to me that she was doing her best to supervise him, take care of 6 other children, clean up from lunch, get nap supplies out, change diapers, etc, etc etc. I know how crazy this time of day is. once our children are potty trained, they all go potty alone. I would have been so embarrased at 4 yrs old to tell my teacher each time I had to go potty, and then to have her stand there while I went potty? I would have been mortified! I don't believe children of this age should have an adult or another child in the bathroom with them when they have to go. If they want to leave the door open and have other children wander in there while they're going potty, that's their choice, but I wouldn't make them go potty while being visually supervised (unles they'd shown me they couldnt be trusted, but in that case this dcb of the op was being supervised in my opinion). She had just checked on him. Even if she had stood right outside the door to make sure he didn't have time to play, he still would have had time to put that roll of tp in the toilet and flush. I've had a 2 yr old throw a toy down the toilet before right in front of me. I saw her get ready to throw it in, I immediately grabbed for it, but she dropped it in before I could get it. I reached in to dig it out and *flush*...away went the toy. I would have been considered visually supervising, since I was helping one child wash hands, while another went potty. But it happens so fast, it doesn't matter. Now a 2 yr old is completely different from a 4 yr old. A 4 yr old KNOWS better. Whether they do better doesn't matter. By that age they should KNOW better, especially if they'd been in trouble for messing around in the bathroom already. If it had been at our daycare, the parent would be asked for a percentage of it. 1/3 of it I'd pay just because I was the one responsible for the child at the moment they did the damage. Another 1/3 because of my own child's part in it, and the last third would have been the parent's part to pay. It's in our policy, also. Children know better than to do a lot of things, but choose not to do better. Adults don't give them enough credit . If the 2 yr old's toy down the toilet had cost anything, we would have paid for it because it's natural for a child of this age to do things like that. They really don't know better. But this 4 yr old knew better.
The op sounds like she has chosen not to ask for any payment from the parents, that's up to her, but she doesn't need a whole bunch of people condemning her and saying it's her own fault. Until you have something happen right in front of you like this, it would be hard to believe that it could happen if you are properly supervising. But I know from experience how fast children are.

[snbauser]

Yikes!! What a mess!! I have to agree with some of the pp though. Here we are required to be able to see the door of the bathroom whenever a child is in there. It is a pain in the neck sometimes but it is the rule. I would also have removed the tp from the room after the previous issues. If they needed it, they would have needed to ask for it and I would have ripped off just enough for them. Also, I'm suprised that you are allowed to have kids on a separate floor from you.

[nannyde]

Im not seeing this as a lack of supervision thing. As I bolded, she said she had just checked on him 30 seconds prior. She's trying to supervise 7 children. He's 4 yrs old. 4! In my opinion, 4 yr olds are fully capable of going potty alone. Yes, he's shown he can't be trusted in the bathroom alone and she knew she couldn't trust him so she went to check on him. 30 seconds later he comes out. I don't know about all of your regulations, but in my state children have to be in sight OR hearing at all times. He was within hearing distance, she mentioned this in her post. And he did it all in under 30 seconds. It goes to show that it doesn't have to take a long span of time of unsupervision for something to happen. It just takes a second. It sounds to me that she was doing her best to supervise him, take care of 6 other children, clean up from lunch, get nap supplies out, change diapers, etc, etc etc. I know how crazy this time of day is. once our children are potty trained, they all go potty alone. I would have been so embarrased at 4 yrs old to tell my teacher each time I had to go potty, and then to have her stand there while I went potty? I would have been mortified! I don't believe children of this age should have an adult or another child in the bathroom with them when they have to go. If they want to leave the door open and have other children wander in there while they're going potty, that's their choice, but I wouldn't make them go potty while being visually supervised (unles they'd shown me they couldnt be trusted, but in that case this dcb of the op was being supervised in my opinion). She had just checked on him. Even if she had stood right outside the door to make sure he didn't have time to play, he still would have had time to put that roll of tp in the toilet and flush. I've had a 2 yr old throw a toy down the toilet before right in front of me. I saw her get ready to throw it in, I immediately grabbed for it, but she dropped it in before I could get it. I reached in to dig it out and *flush*...away went the toy. I would have been considered visually supervising, since I was helping one child wash hands, while another went potty. But it happens so fast, it doesn't matter. Now a 2 yr old is completely different from a 4 yr old. A 4 yr old KNOWS better. Whether they do better doesn't matter. By that age they should KNOW better, especially if they'd been in trouble for messing around in the bathroom already. If it had been at our daycare, the parent would be asked for a percentage of it. 1/3 of it I'd pay just because I was the one responsible for the child at the moment they did the damage. Another 1/3 because of my own child's part in it, and the last third would have been the parent's part to pay. It's in our policy, also. Children know better than to do a lot of things, but choose not to do better. Adults don't give them enough credit . If the 2 yr old's toy down the toilet had cost anything, we would have paid for it because it's natural for a child of this age to do things like that. They really don't know better. But this 4 yr old knew better.
The op sounds like she has chosen not to ask for any payment from the parents, that's up to her, but she doesn't need a whole bunch of people condemning her and saying it's her own fault. Until you have something happen right in front of you like this, it would be hard to believe that it could happen if you are properly supervising. But I know from experience how fast children are.

I disagree with almost this entire post.

No one is condeming her. She made a mistake like we all have. It's just a costly mistake.

I don't care if a four year old is embarrassed to ask to go potty or to be supervised. They can't be here if that's a problem. I have to supervise them at all times. A four year old doesn't have a say in that. That's decided by grown ups who make laws and regulations... not a four year old and their four year old feelings.

Of course it could have happened right in front of her. This didn't. She wasn't in the room or next to the room when he did it. She was there before but not thirty seconds after.

The provider HAS a choice about how many children she cares for. If seven is too many too supervise the bathroom while doing the other tasks then she has to decrease the number of kids to the number she CAN supervise and do the other things.

This kid showed SO many signs that he couldn't be trusted alone in there. She knew he behaved badly numerous times before. Whatever supervision she is doing today.. could have been done yesterday. She's saying she will never leave him alone in there again... that means she CAN care for him and not leave him alone in there.

Your response seems to me to be from someone who would really never have to pay the damage for this kind of mistake. It's easy to SAY this but paying for it is a whole nother thing. I don't think there are any center employees who could afford a third of this kind of situation.

[jen]

I have some first hand experience with this one!

My bathroom is the first left after the kitchen. The kids line up in the hallway to go potty while I am preparing lunch (I check hands to make sure they were washed before they get to the table). One of my kiddo whose not quite four, recently decided to try to flush the paper towel roll. When he came out, he said there was water in the bathroom...I didn't think anything about it until a few minutes later when the fire alarm started. Now, I knew there wasn't a fire so I started looking to see what was up...

WATER!!! Flowing through the ceiling, in to the fire alarm below. Since they are all hardwired, all SEVEN alarms were going off in short order. I got all the kids outside, turned off the water, flipped off the power to the alarm and then called hubby to get his butt home.

I did mention it to the daycare parents who were horrified at their child's behavior. I immediately told them that when he is with me, it is MY responsibility to know what he's up to. He now has to pee with the door open.

In the end, I simply don't think we can really hold a 4 year old responsible for very much...they just don't understand the scope of their actions.

[Symphony]

I'm so sorry this is happening to you OP. I can understand both sides of the "what is the parent's responsibility" argument, but either way, I think it would be nice to have gotten an apology from the family. If this were my child, and I couldn't afford to help you in any way, I would AT LEAST let you know how sorry I was and have my child make you a card or something.

My regs state that we have to be within hearing distance for children over 2, so I wouldn't be in trouble over a supervision issue for a child alone in the bathroom. I would be in trouble for having kids on seperate floors though.



Just a random comment too...obviously the child in the OP's house has shown he cannot be trusted alone in the bathroom, but I totally disagree that all four year olds need to be supervised. I would have become physically ill at four years old if I was required to be supervised to use the restroom. I literally would have held it til my mom came or til I had an accident to avoid that humiliation. Apparantly some of you have children who are not like that. I guess it's a good thing I was never in daycare!

[Former Teacher]

Unfortunately IMO you are the one responsible since it happened on your watch. But I do agree that the parents should have at least apologized for their child's behavior.

[snbauser]

Just a random comment too...obviously the child in the OP's house has shown he cannot be trusted alone in the bathroom, but I totally disagree that all four year olds need to be supervised. I would have become physically ill at four years old if I was required to be supervised to use the restroom. I literally would have held it til my mom came or til I had an accident to avoid that humiliation. Apparantly some of you have children who are not like that. I guess it's a good thing I was never in daycare!

See here we do not have to actually see them in the bathroom, we just have to be able to see the door to the bathroom. We usually have a teacher who stands right outside the door and the kids leave the door ajar. The teacher can hear what is going on so we can hear if they are playing with the toilet paper or the water. We also will peek in if they seem to be taking an unusually long amount of time.

[Missani]

Okay, I just have a few comments on these posts, but feel free to keep the responses coming.
1) I did not allow more than one child to go to the bathroom together. One child was in the bathroom.
2) I have taken complete responsibility for this due to lack of supervision (as stated at least twice in my posts)
3) I have followed ALL regulations I have, so PLEASE do not call licensing on me, it's a waste of your time. I know some of you could track me down, but really, there is no point as I have already contacted them regarding the situation. I mean, you can if you want, but they know about it and it will be a waste of both the licensor and my time.
4) I have to be within sight OR hearing of preschool children. I was within hearing and the child was alone between 30-45 seconds. This follows all rules I have. Licensing is aware of my bathroom situation and has approved it.
5) I am capable of taking all of the children to the bathroom, which is what will have to happen from now on. The youngest 2 can go in their cribs and the oldest 5 can come upstairs with me. This is inconvenient, but I am capable. I stated in my post that I am not overwhelmed by the 7 kids I have, and I am fully capable of taking care of them. I will not, however, be able to be gone for more than 5 minutes because I am not able to leave the infants alone for longer. Therefore, all children MUST go potty in that 5 minute span and then be back downstairs so I don't leave infants alone. There will be no 30 minute poops at this house.
6) As far as what am I wanting, I think I CLEARLY stated that in my post. If my child did $3500 (NOT $10,000 as it somehow extrapolated into) worth of damage to anyone's house NO MATTER WHO'S FAULT IT WAS, I would apologize. Accident or not, supervision or not, I would not ignore it. That is why I posted this. I asked if you would be upset if the parents completely ignored the situation. I stated that I do NOT expect monetary compensation, that if I did, I had it in my policy that the parents pay damages, and that I have taken FULL blame for the incident. Was this somehow unclear?
7) It truly was 30 seconds since my last visit. I came down the stairs, placed a sippy cup in a drawer, and they came down. I think I stopped to throw a bib in the laundry basket as I walked by. I did not "lose track of time." Anyone who does not think this is enough time to wet a wad of tp and toss it on the ceiling (and for the record, that was 2 weeks ago, and my DH was in the hallway when it happened...with the door open...and it STILL happened) or toss a roll of tp into the toilet has clearly NOT met a 4 year old. I would say either task would take 10 seconds. I was gone 30...this IS enough time for this to happen.
and FINALLY, AND MOST IMPORTANTLY:
8) I put this on here to get your opinions. If I didn't want your opinion, I wouldn't have asked. My question was, I am feeling upset over this parent's non-chalant attitude, do I have a reason to be upset and/or would you be upset? That is why I asked. I wasn't sure if my feelings were validated, so I asked what you thought. You can call me a horrible provider all you want, but I followed ALL of my regulations, I addressed this issue previously, I did not do anything wrong (per licensing), I have paid the damages, and I have made changes. None of those really apply because that is NOT what I asked. Although, I do again appreciate your opinions.

Oh, and one more thing. The only piece of these posts that does irritate me a bit is the references to me shifting blame. I will still hold my opinion that it is my job to teach a 4 year old bathroom independence. Obviously, we are not there yet and I thought we were getting closer. I was WRONG. This IS MY FAULT. Have I indicated ANYWHERE that I do not believe this is my fault? How am I shifting blame when I am taking full responsibility? This is not a case of me trying to blame others for my actions or of being angered for hearing what I don't want to hear. I do want to hear it, so I asked you. I paid the deductible, not a huge deal, and I am once again (in case it's not clear) taking responsibility. So, how again am I shifting blame? I don't get it...

FWIW, the parent has since contacted me and is insisting to pay half of the deductible. I am not accepting it from him. I have told him that the only thing I want is to work together to resolve the issue. That's all I wanted since the beginning. I don't think I'm wrong to want to work with my families to resolve issues, but we are all entitled to our own opinions, so if you'd rather NOT work with your families, then you can do it differently. I am no longer upset with the situation at all (although feel free to keep adding your input).

[Symphony]

Hugs OP. I'm happy the dad is on board to help you resolve the issue in the future!

[MN Day Mom]

Hugs OP. I'm happy the dad is on board to help you resolve the issue in the future!

Ditto! Ditto! Ditto!

[Missani]

Oh, and since you don't have the layout of my home, I can *sort of* see into the bathroom from the stairs. I can hear, the door is left open, and I can see more than half of the bathroom. I cannot see the toilet. Therefore, I do not say that I am in visual supervision at every point. However, I do look in there almost the entire time, I can hear if they are playing in there (unless it's silent playing as it was this time), I can see the sink so I know they aren't playing in there. This bathroom is used for daycare so there are no poisons/chemicals in there and only cold water comes from the faucet. They are not allowed to use the sink in there (they come downstairs to wash hands). No one has ever been left alone for more than 60 seconds...ever..and that's if I was distracted and BEFORE any problems ever occurred. I usually stand on the top step/in the doorway/in the actual bathroom because we have scheduled breaks. BUT, when they have to go at other times, I let them (if I did not this would be a licensing violation-I cannot deny a child the chance to use the bathroom). I knew the child had issues, I was supervising, and we had gone over a month without unsupervised problems. The tp on the ceiling happened 2 weeks ago while my DH was supervising, and the hook thing happened when I was standing on the step (and I walked in immediately after because I was supervising). Safety is a big thing to me and I am certain these kids were safe. Just my house wasn't. Oh, and no, in my 15+ years experience I have never had a previous flush issue. Not that any of this matters, just clarifying.

And I still think almost 5 is old enough to know that playing with tp is unacceptable because it has been discussed so many times. Did he know what would happen if he flushed? Probably not, but he KNEW he wasn't supposed to be playing with toilet paper and he knew he had a "4 square limit" and an appropriate 4 square piece was there for him to compare. He told me from the look on his face that he knew he was wrong. I just want to teach him right from wrong. That's all I want, and he knew he was wrong.