A "Private" Matter

[Unregistered]

Because I'm dumb and failed to log out before posting previously, I'm reposting this and asking for opinions. Again, I'm a registered user who is (now) logged out as this is a pretty specific situation.

Background: I have a 3.5yo little girl, "Katie", who I've had since she was just three weeks old. She used to come fulltime but has recently dropped to four days a week care (M,T,Th,F). Here mom is on the young side at 23 while her father is on the older side at 34. She has two older half-siblings ages 6 & 8, and a full sister who is 5.

Situation: Around the beginning of the year, "Katie" discovered the art of making herself feel good during naptime, IYKWIM. It would be very obvious to me what she was doing underneath her blanket, and she would continue the act until she drifted off to sleep. As this is a natural act for children her age, I didn't make a huge deal about it. I simply said that she was doing something that should be done in private at her house and not at daycare. She eventually quit completely, with me only reminding her about twice a month.

For the past two weeks, the frequency of when she does it has become very often. And noticable for other children, too. Instead of just doing it during naptime, she'll now do it underneath a baby doll blanket during free play in an abandoned area of the room and even when she's on the couch she'll roll over onto her stomach and hide her hand underneath her body, even though it's clearly obvious, to me, what she is doing. I have younger daycare kids who I don't want picking up on this habit, no matter how natural I believe it is, so I immediately go over and pull her away from the group and send her to the bathroom. She'll stop before she gets to the bathroom and ends up rejoining the group and playing great until she gets the urge again.

Today, as I laid her three younger friends down for a nap in their own rooms, I figured a talk would be in order since there would be no distractions around. I sat next to her on the floor and this is how our converstion went:

Me: "I know when you touch yourself it feels good to you, but that is something that needs to be done in private. You can't do it a daycare because we have friends around. You need to only do at your house in your room, or in your bathroom. Do you understand why we can't do this at daycare?"

Katie: "I'm not allowed to touch my privates in my bed anymore"

Me: :confused: "What do you mean?"

Katie: "My mommy said that if I touch my privates when I'm in bed at night, she's going to put chile on my hands and that it will burn if I touch myself again."

Me:

I have no idea on how to approach this subject AT ALL! I hugged "Katie" and helped her lay down on her cot and covered her with her blanket. The mom, who has previously made a comment about how she finds the act that "Katie" participates in as "disgusting", would definitely threaten her child like this. I've known her for over three years and I know just how gross her language is (she calls her kids seriously horrible names like butthead, fool, a$$hole - no joke! - like they are terms of endearment).

I am at a complete loss on what action to take next. I am hoping for some advice on what to tell Mom, because I do want and NEED to tell her something, and what I can do for "Katie".

Thanks in advance!!

[MyAngels]

I'm completely winging it here, as I've never had to deal with this issue at all with dc parents, but maybe you could either purchase, or suggest a book on the subject that would help her understand what's going on with her daughter better. Maybe these?:

http://www.amazon.com/Whats-Big-Secret-Talking-about/dp/0316101834/ref=pd_sim_b_1

http://www.amazon.com/Amazing-You-Getting-Smart-Private/dp/0142410586/ref=pd_sim_b_1

[youretooloud]

I don't have any idea. I'm dealing with something similar, and the child's dad is about to have a meltdown over it.

I think some parents just can't bear to see their baby acting in a way that we think of as adult behavior.

[nannyde]

I have never come across this in my entire 31 years but I have heard about this over the years. I don't have any experience at ALL with this. I've had a few little boys that were too handsy thru their clothes with their little John Thomas but that's solved with "ay quit that"

I hear that it is so normal that I can't really figure out why I never see this. My guess.. and this is ONLY A GUESS .. is that I don't have an environment of fixation here. I don't do rocking, swinging, binkies, motion consulation, etc.
My kids aren't used to anything rhyhmic to pacify themselves or to self soothe. So when they are old enough to use this to self soothe they don't have a brain that needs to soothe by repetative, metered, physical motions.

Now again.......... this is just a guess on why I never see this in my population.

First things first.. after eliminating as much as possible the possibility that she is being molested or seeing adult stuff she should never see... then

I'm addressing THIS scenario only.. not a kid who does it now and then.. not a kid who can do this in the privacy of their own home... not a kid who is cared for by themselves and not in a group.... not a kid who is with their parents who have no problem with it. JUST THIS: For the past two weeks, the frequency of when she does it has become very often. And noticable for other children, too. Instead of just doing it during naptime, she'll now do it underneath a baby doll blanket during free play in an abandoned area of the room and even when she's on the couch she'll roll over onto her stomach and hide her hand underneath her body, even though it's clearly obvious, to me, what she is doing.

My immediate reaction to this is that she needs to be blocked. I would put a pull up on over her undies and backwards footed pajamas on her for nap. That way she has no physical way to get skin from hand to skin in the nether regions.

If she was still rubbing from the outside I would double layer the pull ups. As much material as you can get in between hands and her business department the better.

She just needs TIME to know she can get herself to sleep without doing THIS.

Now many will tell you it's totally normal for kids to do this and just make sure they have a private area to do it and wash their hands. For ME... I wouldn't allow it.

To ME.. it's not about what is developmentally appropriate... to me it's whether or not I want to be around a kid who has their hands there and is soothing themselves THAT way.

I don't want to be around that so "I" say no to it. I don't want to have these conversations with little children. I don't want it to have anything to do with child care. I don't want to be a part of deciding when they can and when they can't... whether they wash their hands or not... where they can or can't do it... whether it's normal or not. I don't want to be in the loop of the discussion. I want kids to keep their hands playing toys and nap time to be peaceful, calm, without intercession from me.

I would prefer a simple clothing and barrier block and be done with it. My words would be... hey scoot over here and get your pull up and princess footies on.

Simple as that.

It sounds like the Mom feels like she's out of options to get it stopped. Maybe suggest the blocking method at home. The chilli thing is rediculous and she needs to be told there is a better way.. at least to try a better and easier way.

For playtime at the center it may be best to have her have "union suits" or all in one piece jumpers for blocking and even a pull up if necessary for the extra layer. Even if she has to wear the same set of clothes frequently over the course of a few weeks... it's okay. She just needs TIME to get over the urge and know that she can cope with day to day life there without doing this.

[Kaddidle Care]

Maybe ask the Mom to talk to the Pediatrician about it. (They will tell her it's natural/normal even though for those of us in childcare, it's not appropriate.)

If the child is prone to UTI's, it may have come about because she was originally uncomfortable down there and then realized there was another feeling. (We had a child like that.)

As far as doing it when it's NOT naptime, I'd ask her to wash her hands and then get those little hands busy with something else.

It's not appropriate for School or Daycare and I know the "experts" will say it's perfectly natural but we can't have kids bumping and grinding all day. Yikes! There's a place and a time for this and it's home thank you.

[QualiTcare]

I have never come across this in my entire 31 years but I have heard about this over the years. I don't have any experience at ALL with this. I've had a few little boys that were too handsy thru their clothes with their little John Thomas but that's solved with "ay quit that"

I hear that it is so normal that I can't really figure out why I never see this. My guess.. and this is ONLY A GUESS .. is that I don't have an environment of fixation here. I don't do rocking, swinging, binkies, motion consulation, etc.
My kids aren't used to anything rhyhmic to pacify themselves or to self soothe. So when they are old enough to use this to self soothe they don't have a brain that needs to soothe by repetative, metered, physical motions.

Now again.......... this is just a guess on why I never see this in my population.

First things first.. after eliminating as much as possible the possibility that she is being molested or seeing adult stuff she should never see... then

I'm addressing THIS scenario only.. not a kid who does it now and then.. not a kid who can do this in the privacy of their own home... not a kid who is cared for by themselves and not in a group.... not a kid who is with their parents who have no problem with it. JUST THIS: For the past two weeks, the frequency of when she does it has become very often. And noticable for other children, too. Instead of just doing it during naptime, she'll now do it underneath a baby doll blanket during free play in an abandoned area of the room and even when she's on the couch she'll roll over onto her stomach and hide her hand underneath her body, even though it's clearly obvious, to me, what she is doing.

My immediate reaction to this is that she needs to be blocked. I would put a pull up on over her undies and backwards footed pajamas on her for nap. That way she has no physical way to get skin from hand to skin in the nether regions.

If she was still rubbing from the outside I would double layer the pull ups. As much material as you can get in between hands and her business department the better.

She just needs TIME to know she can get herself to sleep without doing THIS.

Now many will tell you it's totally normal for kids to do this and just make sure they have a private area to do it and wash their hands. For ME... I wouldn't allow it.

To ME.. it's not about what is developmentally appropriate... to me it's whether or not I want to be around a kid who has their hands there and is soothing themselves THAT way.

I don't want to be around that so "I" say no to it. I don't want to have these conversations with little children. I don't want it to have anything to do with child care. I don't want to be a part of deciding when they can and when they can't... whether they wash their hands or not... where they can or can't do it... whether it's normal or not. I don't want to be in the loop of the discussion. I want kids to keep their hands playing toys and nap time to be peaceful, calm, without intercession from me.

I would prefer a simple clothing and barrier block and be done with it. My words would be... hey scoot over here and get your pull up and princess footies on.

Simple as that.

It sounds like the Mom feels like she's out of options to get it stopped. Maybe suggest the blocking method at home. The chilli thing is rediculous and she needs to be told there is a better way.. at least to try a better and easier way.

For playtime at the center it may be best to have her have "union suits" or all in one piece jumpers for blocking and even a pull up if necessary for the extra layer. Even if she has to wear the same set of clothes frequently over the course of a few weeks... it's okay. She just needs TIME to get over the urge and know that she can cope with day to day life there without doing this.

i agree. there have been discussions about this before and people act like it's just as normal as the sun rising every morning - so i can't figure out why i haven't seen it either - other than the occassional hands in the pants you know.

would it be ridiculous for the mom to put chili powder on her hands? yeah. but she isn't going to. she doesn't have to. the threat alone has made the little girl stop. my grandma told me the same thing when i used to bite my nails. i believe she would've actually put chili powder on my hands - that's why i quit before she had to.

i don't think there's anything wrong with this mom not wanting her daughter to be doing this at THREE. i don't care how normal everyone thinks it is. it's even more normal NOT to do it. no young child should be fixated this much on masturbation.

i can't make any judgements about the mom on the basis she calls the kids "butthead" or whatever. some people are really uptight about language and others aren't. i'm someone who isn't. i tell my kids they're acting like punks all the time amongst other things. they think it's funny. no harm done.

[Hunni Bee]

I've had a few little girls who've done this. For some reason, its usually more noticeable in girls than boys.

There was always a problem at home...one was being abused by her mother, and the another's mother had just moved her boyfriend in, and the dcg did not like him at all. The third's mother is bipolar, and her sister has emotional problems as well.

I do have one boy who has frequent "winky times", and he also has some issues- with exposing himself and touching other children.

I've said that to say this: in all my experiences with this, the children were emotionally disturbed. And their fixation on masturbation was less about it feeling good, and more about it being a coping mechanism. So the "i know this feels good, but you need to do it at home" talk never really made much sense to them. As it probably doesn't to Katie, because its something she knows makes her feel better temporarily.

A parent who feels comfortable calling her 3yo "a**hole" in public likely does the same and worse frequently at home. I would document and refer to Children's Services if need be.

JMO.

[Unregistered]

I've tried to be registered but for some reason first I was blocked, then allowed to register, but now my password does not work. I've been reading posts for a few months now and have learned a lot from this forum but it's been ok not posting, even though I originally wanted to ask a question and was not able to ask. Anyway - this post really bothers me. Especially the responses to it. Especially Nanny de's. Such intense and negative reaction to a normal behavior. Perhaps you haven't seen it because you don't allow your kids any self-soothing. They know you won't like it. I just felt really sad for all of your kids when I read your post. And some of the others as well. Kids explore their bodies - remember sensory activities? Kids **** thumbs. Kids have all sorts of behaviors adults do not have. I have had 2 little girls recently who have done the same sort of thing, and I absolutely know that they have great home lives, and that they are well-adjusted, happy children. I think what I find most disturbing in this whole thread is the absolute NO, the totally negative response. Let the kids be kids - even in daycare. It looks like Nanny is revered here but I can't quite figure out why - so authoritative about everything. Especially in this thread. Why is this behavior so not ok in daycare? Under the privacy of a blanket at naptime or in the bathroom?

[Lucy]

If you are licensed, call either your licensing agent (the one who comes out to do your inspections), or your resource & referral office. The latter has always been extremely helpful to me for things like this. And they are always willing to come out to your house to do some observing. If JUST observing, you don't need parental approval. The upside to asking for this type of help is that you've been upfront about it from the get-go. What I mean is that if the parents later try to accuse you of doing something untoward, you have the state or county already on your side.

[Candyland]

Now many will tell you it's totally normal for kids to do this and just make sure they have a private area to do it and wash their hands. For ME... I wouldn't allow it.

To ME.. it's not about what is developmentally appropriate... to me it's whether or not I want to be around a kid who has their hands there and is soothing themselves THAT way.

I don't want to be around that so "I" say no to it. I don't want to have these conversations with little children. I don't want it to have anything to do with child care. I don't want to be a part of deciding when they can and when they can't... whether they wash their hands or not... where they can or can't do it... whether it's normal or not. I don't want to be in the loop of the discussion. I want kids to keep their hands playing toys and nap time to be peaceful, calm, without intercession from me.

thank you, NannyDe.

And to the OP, is it possible that the little girl is "itchy" down there? just a thought. I'm sure if she was though, she would have told you already.

[bice99]

Okay ladies, you may all think I'm crazy. Both of my girls self-soothed this way at toddlers. We are about as normal as families are nowadays. My girls were not thumb ****ers, binkie girls (never owned one) or anything else. Our 9 year old does love hair since she would hold onto mine while she nursed.

I completely agree that it is not okay at daycare. I don't think it's okay at all. Our girls had those hard headed baby dolls and would rub on them. No hands were ever involved. Our older daughter hadn't done it in years and then she did when we were at my in-laws. She loves being there, but being in a different room stressed her out. I gave her my T-shirt to sleep with after having a chat with her. She's never done it since.

I have had this come up in my class when I taught first grade. Very not okay. It is a tough subject to discuss with a parent, but needs to be taken care of. CCR&R might have some ideas to help. They have so many resources for us.

[Hunni Bee]

I've tried to be registered but for some reason first I was blocked, then allowed to register, but now my password does not work. I've been reading posts for a few months now and have learned a lot from this forum but it's been ok not posting, even though I originally wanted to ask a question and was not able to ask. Anyway - this post really bothers me. Especially the responses to it. Especially Nanny de's. Such intense and negative reaction to a normal behavior. Perhaps you haven't seen it because you don't allow your kids any self-soothing. They know you won't like it. I just felt really sad for all of your kids when I read your post. And some of the others as well. Kids explore their bodies - remember sensory activities? Kids **** thumbs. Kids have all sorts of behaviors adults do not have. I have had 2 little girls recently who have done the same sort of thing, and I absolutely know that they have great home lives, and that they are well-adjusted, happy children. I think what I find most disturbing in this whole thread is the absolute NO, the totally negative response. Let the kids be kids - even in daycare. It looks like Nanny is revered here but I can't quite figure out why - so authoritative about everything. Especially in this thread. Why is this behavior so not ok in daycare? Under the privacy of a blanket at naptime or in the bathroom?

For me, there's a distinction between "occasional hands-in-the-pants" and a fixation on it. Maybe I wasn't clear in my post, but it was the fixation that I was referring to. When a child is choosing to masturbate instead of play, or is doing it so often that other kids are noticing, that screams "Problem" to me. Not even of a sexual nature always, just that this child is experiencing ongoing anxiety and needs to be soothed constantly.

I do not control what my kids do in the bathroom, but my licensing standards DO state that I have to check on a child whose been in the bathroom longer than five minutes.

I don't control what they do at naptime. If they're under their personal blanket on their personal mat, and they're not disturbing anyone, that's their choice. I make everyone wash hands when they wake up anyway. If they're being disruptive, I will ask them to stop, just as I would ask them to stop any other behavior that was disruptive.

I do not, however, allow them to do it while playing or walk around with their hands in their pants. I ask them if they need to use the restroom and then I make them wash their hands, and come back and play. I don't say "you can do it in the bathroom" either.

I dont make an issue out of it with the child. I don't encourage it, or discourage it. If it becomes an issue, I let the parent know.

[countrymom]

I'm sorry all I can think about its dirty hands touching the toys. Maybe when you see her do it get her to start washing her hands. I wonder too if she is itchy maybe a yeast infection, maybe something wrong with her underware. Its weird that she started doing it again but with full force.

[Unregistered]

maybe a dr. can help?

I know that it'll be difficult to approach the parents on this and I have no idea what is typically normal for children at this age. It sounds as if a pediatrician may be able to intervene on this with the family, say the pediatrician. The TLC television channel ran a special on adults with extreme urges - it's a medical condition. I don't know if this could happen to a child, but from the sounds of her frequency, it sounds like it could be and there will not way to know for sure without a doctor visit.