How Would You Handle This Boy?

[Lilbutterflie]

I have posted about a dcb I have before... I love him but I have to say he is challenging. He is almost 5. Since purchasing MMK, I have been filling out the Daily Reports and sending them to his mom (which she loves); and it's been great b/c I can now track his behavior.

I reviewed the reports this afternoon, which cover the last 16 days of daycare, and I've found that only 4 of these days has he gone without getting a timeout or getting in trouble. He's had a total of 17 timeouts in the last 16 days. That's not counting the other punishments I've given him besides timeouts (I try to take priveledges away when appropriate too). This compared to his step brother (5 days apart in age) who only had 4 timeouts in the last 16 days of care. All of his timeouts are basically for doing things he knows are against the rules, like digging in our neighbors yard, or jumping on the furniture, etc... I have used multiple rewards, like picking a treasure from the treasure box if he's had a good day; or even giving them a donut with their breakfast if they had no timeouts the previous day. The rewards work for the rest of the kids, not so much with him.

I have talked to his mom about his behavior, he basically is the same with her. Sometimes he gets double punished at home for things he did here, which I don't necessarily agree with; but I do feel as if she is concerned and is willing to work with me to correct his behavior.

I don't want to turn this into a debate on whether timeouts work or not; but I DO want to know how you all would handle a boy like him?

Secondly, I'm just curious to know what is normal with your daycare kids? Do any of them break the rules consistently EVERY day, multiple times a day?

[daycare]

I have a child that is 4.5 every day he breaks the rules. Most of the time it is for throwing toys. I have to remind him every day what the rules are and even after reminding him it never fails that he will still go on to break the rules anyways.

Most of it is lack of listening. I also find that there is no room for error with this child. What I mean by this is... if you allow something once, you have to allow it all the time. No changes.... Everything has to be 100% consistent for this child.

I actually suspended this boy due to physical behavior yesterday. kicking and having no remorse for it..... Mom was really really mad, but I had to show him that there was no room for that type of behavior here.

All that I can say is be consistent with the child... cut and dry... no negations whatsoever.

[tenderhearts]

oops I posted in the wrong thread sorry

[Lilbutterflie]

Thanks Daycare. I am very consistent with him, too. He is very sneaky... so my eyes are focused on him for the majority of the day! He gets 1 warning to remind him of the rule, and then punishment.

I just don't understand what goes on his head... he is old enough to understand the rules and remember the rules. Just like you, he is reminded daily of all of the rules here. And when I remind him, he will look right at me and give me eye contact, sometimes he will repeat the rule back to me. And then 10 minutes later, he's doing it again!

[DCMomOf3]

I have SA who are like this. I don't know what to do either. I remind every day, ask if they remember me saying it every day (they say yes). unless its raz-kids time on the computer or the rare wii day, they are constantly pushing the envelope with my rules. There are a lot of days i have to resort to having books only for the remainder of the day. I hate doing it, but it gets out of hand if it happens even once.

[nannyde]

Secondly, I'm just curious to know what is normal with your daycare kids? Do any of them break the rules consistently EVERY day, multiple times a day?

My daycare kids are very sweet and gentle kids. They don't hit, fight, bite, or be mean to each other in any way. They have been raised here and they are VERY loving to us and to each other. They are just really nice respectful kids.

I don't have a kid that has been on time out twice in their life here. I have kids here who have never even been on a time out. I do a time out about once a year or so and that is for what you are describing... multiple behavior issues all in one day.

Separating them from the other kids is only used when there really isn't anything left to do but call the parents. They "need" to be with each other. They aren't whole unless they are with each other doing what everyone is doing.

I'm just not a big fan of time out. I think it's okay if you really need to make a big point to them but it's not something I would use every day. If I had to do sixteen time outs in a two week period I would want to quit my job. It would make me really unhappy to live with that kind of conflict and it would really upset the kids.

[Lilbutterflie]

NannyDe, I wish I was a fly in the wall in your daycare! ::

I know you say your daycare children are generally just good kids; but when you do witness behavior that is unacceptable or against the rules... what do you do if it's not timeout? I'm just looking for an alternative here b/c it's obvious timeouts are just not working with him. Something has to change, b/c I'm just not enjoying being a daycare provider.

He has been much worse this winter, and I chalked it up to two things.
1- he went to stay with his dad out of state for 6 weeks. His dad (I am told) does not discipline the kids and they just run around doing whatever they want when they are with him.
2- it's been winter, and for us North Texans, a very cold winter! We went from being outside about 3-4 hours per day to being outside a half hour, sometimes not at all because they would come to me without hats, gloves or scarves and it was too cold. This boy has A LOT of energy, and I tried to do indoor activities to keep them busy but it just wasn't enough physical activity for him. I know kids will act out when they are not getting what they need, so I've been understanding of that.

However, the last two weeks have been wonderful spring-like weather... and we've gone back to spending 3-4 hours outside each day. He is getting the exercise he needs now, and he's still breaking the rules every chance he gets.

[nannyde]

NannyDe, I wish I was a fly in the wall in your daycare! ::

I know you say your daycare children are generally just good kids; but when you do witness behavior that is unacceptable or against the rules... what do you do if it's not timeout? I'm just looking for an alternative here b/c it's obvious timeouts are just not working with him. Something has to change, b/c I'm just not enjoying being a daycare provider.

He has been much worse this winter, and I chalked it up to two things.
1- he went to stay with his dad out of state for 6 weeks. His dad (I am told) does not discipline the kids and they just run around doing whatever they want when they are with him.
2- it's been winter, and for us North Texans, a very cold winter! We went from being outside about 3-4 hours per day to being outside a half hour, sometimes not at all because they would come to me without hats, gloves or scarves and it was too cold. This boy has A LOT of energy, and I tried to do indoor activities to keep them busy but it just wasn't enough physical activity for him. I know kids will act out when they are not getting what they need, so I've been understanding of that.

However, the last two weeks have been wonderful spring-like weather... and we've gone back to spending 3-4 hours outside each day. He is getting the exercise he needs now, and he's still breaking the rules every chance he gets.

I get the kids when they are babies. The average length of stay here is three years eight months. I don't have a high turnover of families. I don't bring kids in that are older and have behavior issues. I also am pretty picky about the parents I work for. I interview them pretty extensively before they start because I want to get a feel for how they were raised and what their family belief system is in regards to childhood behavior.

I'm clear with them that I expect the kids to behave and to mind me. I don't go for chidlren being disrespectful to adults or other kids. I don't go for kids who have a lot of violence in their television and video gaming.

The families I pick want their kids to have good public behavior. They don't want a report from me that their kid is acting up. They KNOW when I tell them something isn't working that it isn't working and it needs to STOP. They don't abide by "no NO" to the kid.

A report of misbehavior from me is going to be DEALT WITH at home. I rarely have to say anything but when I do it's something they KNOW is not gonna work and they work on it at home. There's no free ride between ill behavior here and home.

So everywhere the kids go they are expected to be good kids. You would be suprised how that nets good kids.

What is the Mom doing WITH the kid once the notes come home? What is the consequence at home? When I tell the parents their child is in troubles they do this to me and this to the kid.

I do NOT do reward systems for being good. Getting to play with your friends and living this great day here IS the reward for good behavior. I've never even had a point chart or a sticker chart in my seventeen years. I do bribing with stickers or treats for new potty trainers and that's it. Other than that I don't have a reward system that leads to anything but "go play toys" with your mates.

Careful proximal supervision is one of the key elements in not allow behavior to escalate to an offense. When the kids are up playing we have an adult within a few feet of them. We correct them at the "core" or "root" of the behavior. So for a kid who wants to climb on the table or into the toy bin we correct the first foot lift when he's standing at the table. He never gets to getting his knee up on the table... we see the foot coming off the floor and tell them "noooooooo". Feet on the floor.

When you have a kid that wants to hurl toys... We correct it at the point where the toy is at shoulder height. There's no good play that comes from toys being above their shoulders. So when they are carrying toys around if they hold it above their shoulders we tell them to put it down... down to their waist or down to the floor.

When we have a kid that wants to focus on what another kid is playing with when we see the "fixing" on behavior we tell them NO and go to them and turn them around AWAY from what they are fixating on and tell them to go play something else. If we see them getting into the personal space of the kid who has the toy again... we move them away from them and tell them no. They don't get a chance to take over someone elses stuff. We can tell the difference between co-operatively playing and trying to bogart the toy.

When we have a kid who is trying to monopolize toys we stop it. If they are hoarding they are always sitting in wait for someone to want the toys. When we see them sitting in wait then we disban the collection of toys they are hoarding.

And on and on and on...

It's supervision at the ROOT... the BASE... the CORE and then correction of the little behaviors that lead to big problem behaviors.

There's no way to teach it... you just have to watch kids closely at play and see what leads to what and from experience be able to cut off the begining of the behavior before it gets to the end unwanted behavior.

That's the system I use and it works. With this in place you have kids who are playing properly and as the toy is intended. We mix and match the kids based on who is here and who is doing what. We believe in multi level age play so the four year old plays with the twenty month old and the three year old plays with the five year old... and the five year old plays with the eighteen month old.

The BEST teachers are the YOUNGER kids. The younger kids bring out the behavior that is the most tempting for the older ones to react off of and break house rules. Once an older kid can successfully and easily play with a younger kid it shows me they are fully graduated in "go play toys".

So we do rotational toys with a large collection... rotational kids with a range age of new walkers to five year olds.. and a roatational activities with toys... and a pack walk every possible day. This with excellent nutrition, excellent sleep, good humor and love... keeps everyone happy every day.

[Unregistered]

engage, direct, give a space of freedom without peril

The last post was really great.

I very much agree that positive direction at the root of the issue is key, but if you have to say no five times in an hour - look at changing the situation, environment, toys, company and activity.

I find that children act up or act out when they are ignored, unengaged, not provided with age/intelligent appropriate activities and opportunities to shine.

Ask yourself - What DO I want to see, and try to phrase this is your mind with out the word not, isn't, didn't, won't.....

If he is throwing crayons, give him one at a time and trade him for the next. If he is throwing toys, take the thrown ones away (or the ones carried above shoulder level).

He needs to be able to have some time doing something successful. If the only thing he is successful at is getting in trouble..... no one will be happy.

Ask him to help you.

Ask him to work through the rules with you so that everyone can have fun.

Give him a chance to flourish in his own -positive- way.

DO not continue to shame him, compare him to other kids (or his step siblings) or reinforce negative behavior by making that his most personal inno.teractions with you. Find away to praise him at least as many times as you say no.

[Hunni Bee]

what do you about "quiet" rule-breakers?

I would love to do behavior modification from the "root" and I do as much as I can, but its unrealistic given the number of kids I have. I rely on time-outs and a behavior chart...goes from green to yellow to orange to red. Both are pretty effective...the chart is eliminating the need for time-outs so much and the chart allows them self-monitor their behavior. I always use "take a rest" instead of time out, and sometimes its a doing a chore, sometimes its just holding my hand (so if I doing something boring, you're doing something boring)...I try to be creative.

But my real question is, what do you do about "quiet" rule breakers...the kids who break rules that really dont hurt anyone else, but its still a rule. I had a dcb yesterday who I told no less than a dozen times "no climbing up the slide" and each time I went over to him, he was climbing up the slide...he even attempted to do it while I was standing there! Then I gently took him off and said "I have told you not to climb up the slide because other people cant slide down. You have play somewhere else now" and led him away. He went right back and climbed up the slide, three or four times...so then it was time to "take a rest"...he screamed his head off and glared at me for the rest of our outside time ...But I was actually impressed at his determination...he meant he was GOING to climb up the slide - he didnt disagree or anything, he just nodded everytime I corrected him and went right back to climbing...

[QualiTcare]

there is a REASON this kid is acting out. my guess is that he needs attention.

just curious - you mentioned his step brother. is the "problem child" the same child whose father isn't in the picture. usually children who have consistent behavior problems have single parents who work a lot or they feel "left out" in some way. i know - i have a child who feels "left out" because she's "different" although she does well in school and had the same family since she was barely a year old. she's an attention seeker (probably bc she's a different ethnicity) but she's always saying silly things and seeking attention.

nannyde, i agree with many things you say, but in reality - there are lots of children with "issues." whether it be issues because they feel "different" or because they were "abandoned" or because they have idiotic parents who may even be drunks or drug addicts (which NO you can't always detect) they still have issues.

it's nice if you can only keep "ideal kids" and you can interview in such a fashion to weed out the kids who are not "ideal" but the reality is - the kids who aren't "ideal" are the kids who need you (and i - and many posters on this site) the MOST. you should know from being a nurse, the easiest patients to deal with are the ones who have family by the bedside. they'll cover them up, get them a drink, help them to the bathroom, etc. it's the patients who don't have a family (or they have some psycho lady with blue eyeshadow on her cheeks) there to try to stock her purse with mt. dew from the galley who need the MOST help.

i'm not saying you're WRONG for weeding out the sort of parents who you know are going to be problems or the kids you know are going to be "not a good fit," but saying that all of your children go through extensive interviews and sing "kumbaya" isn't typical or easy to relate with most providers. like i said, those kids who nobody WANTS are the kids who need a responsbile adult the MOST. the answer isn't always "don't take that kind of kid" just like the answer in nursing isn't "take the patients who aren't incontinent and don't need meds very often." you get what you get and they all need help. there is no, "well, i don't deal with hypertension so i wouldn't have that issue."

once you DO have the kid that does X what do you do to fix the problem?

again, i'm not trying to offend you. i do think you have a great program and i trust what you say. it's just that what you say isn't reality for most providers. some providers DO have kids that misbehave and there's no way to predict that they'll be brats at 4 years old even if you did have them since newborns - it still happens - at least to the worst of us.

[Lilbutterflie]

QualiTCare, I think you are correct... I do believe he might be lacking a bit of attention at home. Even though his mom is not single now, she was up until exactly a year ago when she remarried. His dad lives out of state, and he now has a step dad at home. There are 3 siblings, he has a step brother and a sister. All 3 are with me. I don't have any behavior issues for the most part with his siblings.

But they are with me most days for just a little over 10 hours. Step Dad could bring them one full hour later in the mornings, but it's mom who brings them early b/c she is the one with the car seats. When one child is sick, that child stays home but the others still go to daycare. I have reason to believe dcm has one or two half days per month but still picks them up at 5:30pm every day. They are taking one vacation this summer, but they are not taking the kids with them. They have gone out of town twice already in less than one year and they have not brought the kids.

I do feel as if I try hard to give all of them the love and attention they need; but I am going to try harder with him. He loves to talk, I'll just spend more time talking with him and create little things for him and his siblings to do with me to spend one on one time. Thanks for the advice.

[nannyde]

there is a REASON this kid is acting out. my guess is that he needs attention.

just curious - you mentioned his step brother. is the "problem child" the same child whose father isn't in the picture. usually children who have consistent behavior problems have single parents who work a lot or they feel "left out" in some way. i know - i have a child who feels "left out" because she's "different" although she does well in school and had the same family since she was barely a year old. she's an attention seeker (probably bc she's a different ethnicity) but she's always saying silly things and seeking attention.

nannyde, i agree with many things you say, but in reality - there are lots of children with "issues." whether it be issues because they feel "different" or because they were "abandoned" or because they have idiotic parents who may even be drunks or drug addicts (which NO you can't always detect) they still have issues.

it's nice if you can only keep "ideal kids" and you can interview in such a fashion to weed out the kids who are not "ideal" but the reality is - the kids who aren't "ideal" are the kids who need you (and i - and many posters on this site) the MOST. you should know from being a nurse, the easiest patients to deal with are the ones who have family by the bedside. they'll cover them up, get them a drink, help them to the bathroom, etc. it's the patients who don't have a family (or they have some psycho lady with blue eyeshadow on her cheeks) there to try to stock her purse with mt. dew from the galley who need the MOST help.

i'm not saying you're WRONG for weeding out the sort of parents who you know are going to be problems or the kids you know are going to be "not a good fit," but saying that all of your children go through extensive interviews and sing "kumbaya" isn't typical or easy to relate with most providers. like i said, those kids who nobody WANTS are the kids who need a responsbile adult the MOST. the answer isn't always "don't take that kind of kid" just like the answer in nursing isn't "take the patients who aren't incontinent and don't need meds very often." you get what you get and they all need help. there is no, "well, i don't deal with hypertension so i wouldn't have that issue."

once you DO have the kid that does X what do you do to fix the problem?

again, i'm not trying to offend you. i do think you have a great program and i trust what you say. it's just that what you say isn't reality for most providers. some providers DO have kids that misbehave and there's no way to predict that they'll be brats at 4 years old even if you did have them since newborns - it still happens - at least to the worst of us.

Qual

I'm not weeding out kids. I take the kids from infant on. I don't know when they are newborns how they are going to be as older kids. I'm not THAT good.

What I'm saying is that I have a way of bringing them up from babies that nets really nice kids. The first step is to get great day care parents who have the same belief system I have. That's a long process here and I invest a LOT of time on the front end of the relationship to net the back end of a five year (hopefully) relationship with each family/kid.

I don't weed out kids I weed out parents. Give me your newborns and a good strong (strict) parent and we will raise a good kid.

If you don't have the parents behind you with discipline you are sunk. No matter how good you are at caring for kids you can't do it without having parents who don't want their kid to be a little creep at your house. That's why I'm asking her WHAT the parent is doing after these bad reports.

[Lilbutterflie]

Qual

That's why I'm asking her WHAT the parent is doing after these bad reports.

Well, she wants lots of details every day. Which I give her in daily reports that get emailed to her before she leaves for work. Depending on what his offense is, she might punish him at home by giving him a timeout as soon as he gets home. I don't really believe in this, it's way too late after the offense for a timeout to work. Timeouts are not even working with me right after the offense! She has been talking with him at home about thinking about his actions, think about whether it's against the rules or not; before he does it. Then when she drops them off she reminds each one of them (him and his siblings) "Remember! Think about what you do before you do it!" So far for him that's not working out. It's working for his siblings, not for him. She also rewards the kids that have no timeouts during the day with a chocolate candy when they get home. Again, not a big factor for him. He really doesn't care.

I think there are two issues with him;

1-He is so full of energy that no matter what I do I can't seem to tire him out. When he's sitting, he's wiggling his feet. When he's trying to go to sleep at naptime, he's wiggling all around, then eventually he settles down and just wiggles his feet. He even moves his eyes back and forth while his eyes are shut (it's not REM, he'll do it right when he lays down for nap). He does things without thinking about it b/c he's so hyper! We are spending close to four hours each day outside playing lately, but he still has LOTS of energy.

2-I do believe it's an attention thing as my previous post indicated.