Preschooler's Threats To The Others And Rejecting DCG

[Preschool/daycare teacher]

We have some really sweet girls in our preschool/daycare...most of the time. But lately their attitudes have changed. They stick together in not listening. If one doesn't listen and do as their supposed to, the others won't either. No matter how many consequences they get for it, time outs, etc they just don't seem to care. I guess because they're all in trouble together it doesn't phase them as much. They also reject another dcg their age half the time (the other haf she's right in there with them. Depends on their mood). The leader of the pack is never ever the one rejected by any of them. Everyone wants to be her friend, does whatever she tells them, has a fit if they can't sit beside her, etc (she's a very popular little girl). But the rejected girl is not. One of the problems is during circle games or times we all hold hands to play a game or sing a song (similar to Ring Around the Rosie, for example), they've began refusing to hold certain dcg's hand. They just simply won't take her hand (although everyone else has taken hands with whoever they're beside and hasn't complained).

I know I should know how to handle this, but I could really use some tips. I understand (but don't condone their treatment of her)why they don't want to hold her hand or sit next to her sometimes, but it really hurts dcg's feelings. See, this girl has some pretty nasty habits (hands down her pants, fingers in her nose, really messy nasty eater getting food all over her hands and then touching anyone next to her, constantly spilling her milk into someone else's plate on accident, dropping food into someone else's cup on purpose and thinking it's funny...I wonder if her mom forgets to have her brush her teeth before leaving the house because her breath isn't the best to say the least and she's always right up in someone's face talking to them....I mean this list could really go on for awhile.

I feel so bad for this little girl, but how do you handle their bullying (like I said half the time they're all friends and she's right in there with them, but at other times they can be really mean). Today the 3 of them were swinging on the swings and another little girl came over and got ready to give certain dcg a push (to be nice), but one of the other girls her age exclaimed, "If you push her I'm not going to give you any candy tomorrow!" They've started using that phrase a lot: "if you this I won't give you candy, let you be in my club", etc. At snacks and meals they've started picking a food they "don't like" and telling whoever gets ready to eat it, "Are you going to eat THAT? If you do, I'm not going to give you any candy tomorrow (or be your friend, or be in my club... whatever their thing is at the moment).

The bossiness and bullying the others into being mean to the others has gone too far but I don't know what to do to stop it. I've tried talking to them about how would they feel if... and why are they doing that stuff and all that, but it's not doing a bit of good. We've got some real rebellious children on our hands right now, and it's just getting worse with their new weapon of threatening the other children to withdrawl their friendship or candy. Thing is, they don't even have the candy to pass out. We never give them candy (except one piece during valentine's day party or Christmas or something). That's all over with now, but they are using that threat and it's working. These girls are running the show...and gaining strength. What would you do if you heard one of your dck use the phrase "if you're nice to x, I won't give you any candy tomorrow" or "if you eat that food I'm not going to let you in my club", or "if you pick up those blocks like she said, I'm not going to be your friend" or anything like that?

[jessrlee]

I would be furious! I don't really know how to handle it though. Some ideas...

Split them up! Take the "leader" out of the group and work to get control of the rest of them. It sounds like you work at a preschool with classrooms? Can you talk with the director and get an extra body for a couple of days, or mix the kids of two classes together and then work on it? I don't have "leaders" for this very reason. Even the schoolagers are not allowed to do several "leader" activities. I have outlawed:
"giving" - meaning we do not give one friend anything. If we want to give candy, toys, cards, anything, we bring enough for the group and Mrs. Jess puts it in everyones cubbie to go home.
"inviting" - we do not talk about outside playdates or parties. Even if the whole group is invited we just don't need to talk about it.
"choosing" - just about anything. I don't let them choose where to sit, what color cup or plate, what color treat, etc. If I feel especially onery I even hand out the toys.
"teasing" - we do not tease our friends. Not ever. If you tease your friends you may not talk to them

You need to perfet your tag words- IE a short phrase they just don't even argue with. Said in a semi-sharp voice for best effect. If the school agers move to a topic I don't want them to talk about I use "Take it home", Nan often uses "Go play toys", other good ones are "leave it", "I do NOT! like that!", "You must stop", "wall" = time out) and perfect that stink eye. Once they get the tag words, move on to the stink eye, and soon you can disipline an entire group in silence.

[Hunni Bee]

I have outlawed:
"giving" - meaning we do not give one friend anything. If we want to give candy, toys, cards, anything, we bring enough for the group and Mrs. Jess puts it in everyones cubbie to go home.
"inviting" - we do not talk about outside playdates or parties. Even if the whole group is invited we just don't need to talk about it.
"choosing" - just about anything. I don't let them choose where to sit, what color cup or plate, what color treat, etc. If I feel especially onery I even hand out the toys.
"teasing" - we do not tease our friends. Not ever. If you tease your friends you may not talk to them

I love this. This has been going on ALOT in my classroom. I have one 3yo who doesn't consider it fun unless someone's left out and crying. Especially the "inviting". They love to "you, you and you can come to my house/party/circus/whatever, but not you. You're not my friend." If I hear "You're not my friend", I always say "If you're not our friend, then you have go home. We only have friends here." But I will try these.

[jessrlee]

I love this. This has been going on ALOT in my classroom. I have one 3yo who doesn't consider it fun unless someone's left out and crying. Especially the "inviting". They love to "you, you and you can come to my house/party/circus/whatever, but not you. You're not my friend." If I hear "You're not my friend", I always say "If you're not our friend, then you have go home. We only have friends here." But I will try these.

See, they KNOW you will not send them home for that. I don't threaten with home, or even calling parents. These kids would RATHER I called home than deal with a mad me. If they want to play the "not my friend" game I remove them from the group. They may only plan in a small restricted area, alone. Get all up in their business. For the first few weeks you will probably hear your voice a lot. Soon though they should just know.

[countrymom]

I don't allow clubs and whispering among children. Sometimes you have to play reverse psychology. gather a group of children and don't let her join your group. Treat her the same as she treats others. I know its mean, but sometimes its the only way to do it. Obv. she is getting this behavior from somewhere, does she have siblings at home. I would let her sit all by herself at lunch, since she is causing such a problem at meal time then she needs to be removed. She has way too much power now, so its going to be hard to stop her.

[DCMomOf3]

I agree with pp. You need to take the power from her and own it yourself. Don't let them choose, YOU choose for them. start assigned seating and put the trouble kids alone or with kids that aren't in the clique. YOU are in charge, not her, and she needs to remember that and soon. The longer it goes the harder it will be for you to take the power back.

[Blackcat31]

I agree with pp also....take the power back. Do not allow them to partner up. Reward for choosing new playmates and including everyone.

On a side note, there has been no mention of parents...where are they in this? I would be mad as a hornet if I knew my child was being bullyied in preschool. Where is the parental responsibility for the ring leader? If I knew my kid was behaving as a bully too, I would be livid, but that is me. Are her parents aware of her manipulative behaviors? I think you should place the ball in their court more and if their dd doesn't act nicely or pulls any of the "if you don't do this then I won't be your friend" stuff, I would have her picked up immediately so parents can deal with their own little bully. It is THEIR responsibilty to raise their dd with morals and values and most of all with personal responsibilty for her own actions.

[Preschool/daycare teacher]

I agree with pp also....take the power back. Do not allow them to partner up. Reward for choosing new playmates and including everyone.

On a side note, there has been no mention of parents...where are they in this? I would be mad as a hornet if I knew my child was being bullyied in preschool. Where is the parental responsibility for the ring leader? If I knew my kid was behaving as a bully too, I would be livid, but that is me. Are her parents aware of her manipulative behaviors? I think you should place the ball in their court more and if their dd doesn't act nicely or pulls any of the "if you don't do this then I won't be your friend" stuff, I would have her picked up immediately so parents can deal with their own little bully. It is THEIR responsibilty to raise their dd with morals and values and most of all with personal responsibilty for her own actions.

Thank you everyone for the suggestions! We haven't mentioned anything to the parents yet (this is relatively new, within the last week or two). And the "leader's" mom already has her daughter on the wating list for another daycare (that she thinks will be cheaper). Besides that I never ever see the mom. She drops off before I get there in the mornings and it's the grandma that picks up.
Jessrlee: I work at a home daycare (in a seperate building from the owner's actual house). We only have two rooms (the front room where we do preschool and the back room which serves as the everything room). The two rooms are not really seperate completely, just a wide open doorway about 5 1/2 feet wide.

I know it's normal for children this age to say things like "you can't be my friend" and all that. It started with that, but then has progressed to threats of withdrawing candy if they don't let them play, or if they play with so and so, etc. I started giving quick time outs today when I'd hear any of this talk and doing some stern talking to them about it. I hate giving time outs for something they say (I usually reserve timeouts for being physically aggressive), but this has gone too far and everyone's had their fill of it (except the 3 of them). I just sent them to time out each time and it seemed to curb it some. And we're going to tell the parents they can't let their child bring candy in anymore (apparently they've been bringing candy in and then passing it out after pm snack before they go home (this is after I've already left for the day). So now we won't allow that...I talked to the owner.

Country mom: the leader does have an older brother. She has major attitude when he's around and absolutely refuses to listen, talks back, etc. It's awful when they're together. I think he must do that to her (like maybe telling her if she listens to us then he's going to do something to her when they get home, or won't do something she wants him to...something like that). Now that she has followers she's thrown all respect and rules right out the window. And one of the followers is no longer just a follower. She's now a leader too, right along with the 1st leader, but making her threats even worse.

What do you do when your dcks see someone do something wrong and think it'd be fun to join them in it? Like today we were outside playing, no problems. Then all of a sudden the leader decided to take off outside the gate (it's a chain link fence, with a gate that has a latch they can easily open). She runs around the playground outside the fence, laughing and thinking it's funny even while I yell at her to get back inside the fence. Then the 2nd leader takes off also, while I'm distracted with the first one. Then the 3rd girl took off also! Then a 3 yr old boy followed them... I was firey mad and kinda panicked (because if they're brave enough to do something like that, why stop at running circles around the outside of the fence. Why not run into the woods, or to the road? They finally came back inside the fence and earned themselves a long sit down. But they thought it was funny even while sitting there they laughed with each other (even while spread out far away, there's no way to make it so they can't see each other, so they still made it into a game, none of them minding being in trouble since they were all 3 in trouble together). I wanted to take away their playground time the next time they'd be outside, but I leave before they go outside in the afternoon, and the owner is alone with all the kids, so she couldn't keep them inside and still be outside with the others. Suggestions?

[QualiTcare]

the kids should not feel comfortable enough to say something so hateful within earshot of you - nor should they feel comfortable enough to run outside of the gate AND blatantly disobey you when you say STOP.

i really don't know what to tell you because based on this post along with other posts i've read in the past, it seems like you and the owner have totally, completely lost control of the children and they KNOW it.

until you and the owner sit down and unite i'm afraid we'll keep seeing this type of post.

[jessrlee]

Thank you everyone for the suggestions! We haven't mentioned anything to the parents yet (this is relatively new, within the last week or two). And the "leader's" mom already has her daughter on the wating list for another daycare (that she thinks will be cheaper). Besides that I never ever see the mom. She drops off before I get there in the mornings and it's the grandma that picks up.
Jessrlee: I work at a home daycare (in a seperate building from the owner's actual house). We only have two rooms (the front room where we do preschool and the back room which serves as the everything room). The two rooms are not really seperate completely, just a wide open doorway about 5 1/2 feet wide.

I know it's normal for children this age to say things like "you can't be my friend" and all that. It started with that, but then has progressed to threats of withdrawing candy if they don't let them play, or if they play with so and so, etc. I started giving quick time outs today when I'd hear any of this talk and doing some stern talking to them about it. I hate giving time outs for something they say (I usually reserve timeouts for being physically aggressive), but this has gone too far and everyone's had their fill of it (except the 3 of them). I just sent them to time out each time and it seemed to curb it some. And we're going to tell the parents they can't let their child bring candy in anymore (apparently they've been bringing candy in and then passing it out after pm snack before they go home (this is after I've already left for the day). So now we won't allow that...I talked to the owner.

Country mom: the leader does have an older brother. She has major attitude when he's around and absolutely refuses to listen, talks back, etc. It's awful when they're together. I think he must do that to her (like maybe telling her if she listens to us then he's going to do something to her when they get home, or won't do something she wants him to...something like that). Now that she has followers she's thrown all respect and rules right out the window. And one of the followers is no longer just a follower. She's now a leader too, right along with the 1st leader, but making her threats even worse.

What do you do when your dcks see someone do something wrong and think it'd be fun to join them in it? Like today we were outside playing, no problems. Then all of a sudden the leader decided to take off outside the gate (it's a chain link fence, with a gate that has a latch they can easily open). She runs around the playground outside the fence, laughing and thinking it's funny even while I yell at her to get back inside the fence. Then the 2nd leader takes off also, while I'm distracted with the first one. Then the 3rd girl took off also! Then a 3 yr old boy followed them... I was firey mad and kinda panicked (because if they're brave enough to do something like that, why stop at running circles around the outside of the fence. Why not run into the woods, or to the road? They finally came back inside the fence and earned themselves a long sit down. But they thought it was funny even while sitting there they laughed with each other (even while spread out far away, there's no way to make it so they can't see each other, so they still made it into a game, none of them minding being in trouble since they were all 3 in trouble together). I wanted to take away their playground time the next time they'd be outside, but I leave before they go outside in the afternoon, and the owner is alone with all the kids, so she couldn't keep them inside and still be outside with the others. Suggestions?

First: no! It is not "normal" for a 3yo to know how to exclude and be so mean. I do not usually run into that behavior until 1st grade. (they KNOW I won't have it but have to try once anyway) It sounds like you let these kids do tons of things that are not daycare appropriate, and that you do not have the respect of the group. At this point you are asking for something to happen. Personally, I would term at least the three troublemakers, keep my ratio small and learn how to handle the group, and then take on more kids. The kids are in danger, and growing in power every day. You are so right. What will YOU DO when everyone runs out of the gate in a different direction? I think you need to show these threads to the owner. She may not realize her and your legal responsiblity.

second, if one of the children even TOUCHES the gate you need to snap "stop!" I know we all want the kids to "feel good" but primary should be their safety. Find the tag words I told you about. Practice then in a sharp no nonsense voice, and get those kids in line before someone gets seriously hurt!

[Kaddidle Care]

We haven't mentioned anything to the parents yet (this is relatively new, within the last week or two). And the "leader's" mom already has her daughter on the wating list for another daycare (that she thinks will be cheaper).

Everything for a reason - I hope they leave. It would make life so much easier for you.

As far as the children running out of the playground - that must be addressed immediately as it's a major safety hazard. I tend to station myself in front of the gate and the children know it's major taboo to touch the gate - it's to be opened by Teachers only. Sometimes an easy open clip on the gate helps too - in case you are across the playground - it delays them ever so slightly and it's just enough time for you to get there before they escape. Some parents pick up from the playground and don't get it and encourage "jr" to open the gate. That is stopped immediately. If it's a safety matter I have no problems talking to parents and setting them straight.

What age is this child? I was picturing a 5 year old doing this and this usually happens in June when they are soooo ready for Kindergarten. If this is a 3 year old doing this all I can say is "Wow!"

They need more activities so they are too busy to be nasty. Set up 3 different tables for snack and lunch and make sure the ring leaders are split up. Don't let them get the chance to take control. With the little ones you always have to stay one step ahead which is something I admit I am unable to do but thankfully I work with a Teacher who knows how to take control quickly.

Encourage the good, even if it is something slight. The Teacher I work with tends to sing everything and the kids love it! Just a gentle song "I like the way Jr. is sitting" and watch your little ducks conform because they want to be part of the song too. It's been an amazing year for me to be with this new Teacher with fresh ideas and more than 15 years experience under her belt.

It's never too late to learn something new!

[nannyde]

This like many of your other posts show that the only leadership you have in this business is the leadership of young children which always turns out badly as they are not capable of leading.

There's no advice that will work because in the end the owner of this business apears to just want the money and is not interested in protecting the happiness of the adults, the safety of the children, and maintaining discipline and order for all.

I can't offer you a single bit of advice because I've never been in a child care situation where three/four year old children were the leaders. It will end in injury, fighting, and a very stressed staff.

[Hunni Bee]

This like many of your other posts show that the only leadership you have in this business is the leadership of young children which always turns out badly as they are not capable of leading.

There's no advice that will work because in the end the owner of this business apears to just want the money and is not interested in protecting the happiness of the adults, the safety of the children, and maintaining discipline and order for all.

I can't offer you a single bit of advice because I've never been in a child care situation where three/four year old children were the leaders. It will end in injury, fighting, and a very stressed staff.

I agree. I read your "Changing of the Guard" post on another thread, and it made perfect sense to me that children should not have to lead. However, my center is under a mentoring program that uses exclusively "The Creative Curriculum". We are supposed to use it too, but I always have just pulled elements from several programs to make a curriculum that works for me and my group...

Anyway, they boast that CC is "child-led" and advises you that your classroom should be too. They say children should be allowed to control as much of everything as possible and there should be a choice for them in every matter. As a result, the materials they give to plan with are very vague because you are supposed to be following the children's lead.

I dont know who this works for. It has never worked in my room. Mind, I do work in a inner-city center with children who do not have the very best home lives, and they do need more structure and clear-cut rules and expectations. My dck's are happier and play and learn better in a stricter environment. They know they may choose who to play with, what to play, etc, but big decisions such as the structure of the day, what's acceptable behavior and what's not, etc should be my job.

[Kaddidle Care]

I was not familiar with the "Child-Led" approach so I googled it and found this article which you may be interested in: http://www.nurseryworld.co.uk/news/1...ed-illiteracy/

Child-Led might be fine for early years but I work in a PreK and we are grooming these children for Kindergarten and beyond. "Child-Led" in a class of 25-30 would be utter chaos. They have to learn to do what Teacher says to do when Teacher says to do it. Choosing what they want to play with at playtime is fine although we limit each item to 2 or 3 children at a time.

Having a fairly small class allows the Teacher to work with curriculum with 2-3 students at a time, I work with 2-3 on a craft and the rest have free play until it's their turn. (Our largest class is 10)

Having a well thought out plan keeps them learning, busy and happy.

To the original OP - how many children do you have in your class?

[nannyde]

I agree. I read your "Changing of the Guard" post on another thread, and it made perfect sense to me that children should not have to lead. However, my center is under a mentoring program that uses exclusively "The Creative Curriculum". We are supposed to use it too, but I always have just pulled elements from several programs to make a curriculum that works for me and my group...

Anyway, they boast that CC is "child-led" and advises you that your classroom should be too. They say children should be allowed to control as much of everything as possible and there should be a choice for them in every matter. As a result, the materials they give to plan with are very vague because you are supposed to be following the children's lead.

I dont know who this works for. It has never worked in my room. Mind, I do work in a inner-city center with children who do not have the very best home lives, and they do need more structure and clear-cut rules and expectations. My dck's are happier and play and learn better in a stricter environment. They know they may choose who to play with, what to play, etc, but big decisions such as the structure of the day, what's acceptable behavior and what's not, etc should be my job.

Homey don't play child led. ::

Honestly, I never read up on that kind of stuff because it bores me.

The way I do it is have a good set of toy collections available in each area that are age appropriate and then rotate those toys thru a period of weeks. I have enough of a collection of everything they could possibly want that it keeps them occupied with next to zero adult involvement other than supervision.

I want my staff assistant to watch them play with these toys and make sure they are playing appropriately, fairly, and are safely for themselves, the other kids, and the equipment. Other than that... we stay out of their play.

So it's "child led" within our structured setting and what we decide they can choose from. I don't have kids saying "can I do play doh?"... "can I paint"... "can I do (fill in something that requires a lot of adult set up, supervision, assistance, clean up etc). I want to give them things that they can inherently do on their own with each OTHER.

We do (cream of the crop activities painting, play doh, puzzles, etc when WE want to do it so it's always done at a time when we have plenty of time and energy to supervise and assist.

Everything available in their play areas are decided upon by:
are they safe?
how much adult involvement does it take to manage this toy?
how much adult involvement does it take to teach the use of the toy?
can the biggins teach the littles how to use this toy?
will it be a "fight" toy or a "conflict" toy
does it require batteries or make noise in any way (no toys like that out)

Any toy that is a conflict toy or requires a lot of adult then it's binned and brought out during times when we can easily manage it. Everything in their play area they can manage on their own, is safe, and has zero conflict to it.