Fingerprinting

[Country Kids]

We have several banks in our area that go by your fingerprints for your accounts.

Many buildings are now requiring finger print ID for employees/clients to get in. My friend worked at a childcare like this and even the parents had to do the fingerprint portion so they could come into the building.

[mommyneedsadayoff]

I really do have to consider quitting. My husband doesn't want to be in a fingerprint database either.

This is a serious decision I'm weighing.

Just because it's become the norm doesn't make me want to fall into line and have it done. I'll be contacting my legislature regarding this big brother move.

Trust me, I get it. I avoided licensing (I operate legally in my state) because I dont want people in my business. I'm not comfortable with giving socials or fingerprints, or retina scans, ect. I just feel like the ship has sailed and the choice now is to participate or not. You are not alone in your concern just fyi. I wish you the best in your decision.

[Blackcat31]

Do it or not is a choice. Do it or quit is no choice.

Now I am confused...

Do it OR quit seems like a choice to me. :confused:

Just like anything else in life. Driver's license, marriage license, child care license, pesticide applicator's license, law license, medical license, teacher's license......

You CHOOSE to follow rules, regulations and requirements in almost everything you CHOOSE to do.

I CHOOSE to follow the food program guidelines for the benefits but there are consequences if I don't comply.

I don't really like to or want to pay taxes but I CHOOSE to comply so I don't suffer the consequences.

I drive to work every day. I don't really agree with the posted speed limit but I CHOOSE to obey it so I don't suffer a consequence.

CHOICE (noun)
noun: choice; plural noun: choices
~ an act of selecting or making a decision when faced with two or more possibilities.
"the choice between good and evil"
synonyms: option, alternative, possible course of action
"you have no other choice"

You don't have to like either option but it doesn't change the fact that you DO have a choice.

I agree... if you are not happy with MN now requiring providers to be finger printed then definitely write your legislators. Providers were vocal about fingerprinting minor children so contacting legislators helped change that so I definitely think that is your best option.

[mommyneedsadayoff]

Now I am confused...

Do it OR quit seems like a choice to me. :confused:

Just like anything else in life. Driver's license, marriage license, child care license, pesticide applicator's license, law license, medical license, teacher's license......

You CHOOSE to follow rules, regulations and requirements in almost everything you CHOOSE to do.

I CHOOSE to follow the food program guidelines for the benefits but there are consequences if I don't comply.

I don't really like to or want to pay taxes but I CHOOSE to comply so I don't suffer the consequences.

I drive to work every day. I don't really agree with the posted speed limit but I CHOOSE to obey it so I don't suffer a consequence.

CHOICE (noun)
noun: choice; plural noun: choices
~ an act of selecting or making a decision when faced with two or more possibilities.
"the choice between good and evil"
synonyms: option, alternative, possible course of action
"you have no other choice"

You don't have to like either option but it doesn't change the fact that you DO have a choice.

I agree... if you are not happy with MN now requiring providers to be finger printed then definitely write your legislators. Providers were vocal about fingerprinting minor children so contacting legislators helped change that so I definitely think that is your best option.

I agree, but I also disagree. Choice is probably not the word I would use. We have options. Pay your taxes or face fines and imprisonment. Comply with licensing or close your business. Making the choice to comply can also be seen as submission to a higher power. In my opinion, it's not as black and white as comply or face the consequence. Maybe in the minds of those who are the "higher power", but in the minds of us normal people, it can be a more difficult decision. The irony is that if you choose not to comply, and cant open your business, your lack of income may make you eligible for government benefits. Not sure how it is in other states, but you dont give your fingerprints to collect welfare here. So they went give you a license to operate daycare, but they will give you funds to live and care for your own. I know I am the oddball here, but I find fingerprinting non criminals to have the same effect the TSA has when they make you and grandma take your shoes off. Makes you feel good and safe. The illusion of safety is very powerful. Governments use it daily.

[Blackcat31]

I agree, but I also disagree. Choice is probably not the word I would use. We have options. Pay your taxes or face fines and imprisonment. Comply with licensing or close your business. Making the choice to comply can also be seen as submission to a higher power. In my opinion, it's not as black and white as comply or face the consequence. Maybe in the minds of those who are the "higher power", but in the minds of us normal people, it can be a more difficult decision. The irony is that if you choose not to comply, and cant open your business, your lack of income may make you eligible for government benefits. Not sure how it is in other states, but you dont give your fingerprints to collect welfare here. So they went give you a license to operate daycare, but they will give you funds to live and care for your own. I know I am the oddball here, but I find fingerprinting non criminals to have the same effect the TSA has when they make you and grandma take your shoes off. Makes you feel good and safe. The illusion of safety is very powerful. Governments use it daily.

Not necessarily the odd ball....

I just view things very black and white and I see this issue no different than provider's having issue with having to be licensed at all.

Some states allow you to care for X number of kids before needing a license, some states say even one child and you need a license. But my state requires providers to be licensed to care for more than one unrelated child.

I don't have to like it or agree with it but IF I CHOOSE to be a child care provider I must comply. period. (or face consequences)

I don't get too caught up in details, options or loop holes.
I simply see it as a choice. Do X if I want to be a child care provider in the state of MN or don't and work in a different line of work.

The requirement isn't about what I personally think or don't think. It's just the requirement. MN has been discussing this for years...... before implementing it and I think if a person that wants to be a child care provider in this state feels strongly enough about complying the time to do something about it was BEFORE it was a requirement.

As you said, that ship has sailed.

Now it IS a comply or don't comply.
That is the choice.

[mommyneedsadayoff]

Not necessarily the odd ball....

I just view things very black and white and I see this issue no different than provider's having issue with having to be licensed at all.

Some states allow you to care for X number of kids before needing a license, some states say even one child and you need a license. But my state requires providers to be licensed to care for more than one unrelated child.

I don't have to like it or agree with it but IF I CHOOSE to be a child care provider I must comply. period. (or face consequences)

I don't get too caught up in details, options or loop holes.
I simply see it as a choice. Do X if I want to be a child care provider in the state of MN or don't and work in a different line of work.

The requirement isn't about what I personally think or don't think. It's just the requirement. MN has been discussing this for years...... before implementing it and I think if a person that wants to be a child care provider in this state feels strongly enough about complying the time to do something about it was BEFORE it was a requirement.

As you said, that ship has sailed.

Now it IS a comply or don't comply.
That is the choice.

Very true...thank you for the perspective! And I agree. I think choice seems more like an ultimatum anymore, so it can be tough to get totally on board. In regards to childcare, the "choice" to comply kr not is driving a lot of people out of the industry. I get why, but I dont think governments really understand the impact. Or the irony. Parents seem to be a protected class even though they are shown to be the most harmful to the kids, yet DC providers jump through hoops and give up most of their privacy to provide care. I cant say if it's right or wrong, as I'm sure every situation is different, but shoot. Seems like a downhill slope to me.

[LysesKids]

Very true...thank you for the perspective! And I agree. I think choice seems more like an ultimatum anymore, so it can be tough to get totally on board. In regards to childcare, the "choice" to comply kr not is driving a lot of people out of the industry. I get why, but I dont think governments really understand the impact. Or the irony. Parents seem to be a protected class even though they are shown to be the most harmful to the kids, yet DC providers jump through hoops and give up most of their privacy to provide care. I cant say if it's right or wrong, as I'm sure every situation is different, but shoot. Seems like a downhill slope to me.

Not every parent gets protected; my own step mother turned me into DHS for educational neglect after my dad died; she didn't believe in homeschooling (which my children thrived in) - she didn't realize the consequences it caused me in AR... not only could I lose my career (I was found innocent BTW and told no worries for doing daycare), but I did lose my rental home due to the laws there. People don't always think about what their actions could do

[Josiegirl]

Do they require fingerprinting for coaches, custodians, priests, bus drivers, etc.? I feel it's important to keep littles without voices, protected, by all means. But don't single some possible criminal accesses without including the requirement of everyone. Same requirements across the board, and yes, while I think underage might be overstepping a bit how many school shootings are happening because the underage are gaining access to weapons? A 14 yo boy just stabbed a girl at an OK school, 1st day and they were all gathered in an auditorium. But then, how would fingerprinting been able to prevent that?

[Blackcat31]

Do they require fingerprinting for coaches, custodians, priests, bus drivers, etc.? I feel it's important to keep littles without voices, protected, by all means. But don't single some possible criminal accesses without including the requirement of everyone. Same requirements across the board, and yes, while I think underage might be overstepping a bit how many school shootings are happening because the underage are gaining access to weapons? A 14 yo boy just stabbed a girl at an OK school, 1st day and they were all gathered in an auditorium. But then, how would fingerprinting been able to prevent that?

MN has removed the requirement of printing of minor children UNLESS they are working in some capacity in the business.

As for coaches, custodians, priests, bus drivers being printed as well.... I agree in some cases.

Priests? That's an area I don't enter (religion) in regards to what the do/don't do. Parents don.t normally leave their child alone with clergy and certainly aren't required to in connection with their jobs or family incomes.

Coaches? Another area the parents can safely monitor themselves or avoid if necessary

Custodians or bus drivers? In my area they are considered school employees and I believe are subject to finger printing AND drug testing.

I think the difference is we work (alone usually) with very young children on a much more intimate level and for much longer portions of day to day life (more opportunity to abuse or neglect etc) that environments with coaching Little League or learning Sunday school lessons isn't even comparable to.

I know bad stuff still happens with coaches and priests etc but they aren't the norm and are a small percentage verses the number of child care providers that maybe shouldn't have even been providers in the first place.

[Snowmom]

MN has removed the requirement of printing of minor children UNLESS they are working in some capacity in the business.

I just had a discussion with my licensor about this.
Minor children who are 13/older will need a background check. If anything flags that background check, they will be required to be fingerprinted.
She could not elaborate on what "flagging" means.

[Blackcat31]

I just had a discussion with my licensor about this.
Minor children who are 13/older will need a background check. If anything flags that background check, they will be required to be fingerprinted.
She could not elaborate on what "flagging" means.

Hmm, I have to go back and read now as I thought it said if they are working as an employee or a volunteer they had to be printed too...

My licensor explained "flagging" as basically getting into any trouble with the law....juvenile criminal history etc is tricky as not everyone has access to all of it so I suppose "flagging" is just an alert that they've done something that required the law to address but doesn't automatically mean it was or is grounds for no contact with daycare.

[Blackcat31]

Interesting/useful info from MN DHS site:

Fingerprint and photo retention

Fingerprints are not retained by DHS or the BCA, but will be retained by the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) in cases where an FBI check is required. Photographs are transmitted through a secure system to DHS and are available in NETStudy 2.0. Fingerprints and photo images are not retained by or available to the fingerprint and photo service location.

Are fingerprints saved or used for other purposes?

The state of Minnesota does not, will not, and cannot retain fingerprints for any DHS study subject. The BCA submits fingerprints to the FBI for review and requests that the FBI not retain them. The FBI states that it does not keep fingerprints if the submitting agency requests this status.
The FBI uses the Next Generation Identification (NGI) system to process background studies submitted by Minnesota.
In its Privacy Impact Statement for the NGI system, the FBI states that fingerprints for non-criminal justice studies are only retained when the submitting agency authorizes them to be retained. Minnesota requests that they not be retained.

I just had a discussion with my licensor about this.
Minor children who are 13/older will need a background check. If anything flags that background check, they will be required to be fingerprinted.
She could not elaborate on what "flagging" means.

For home-based providers: Will this affect minors living in my household?

Yes, all children (ages 13-17) living in the household with a family child care program or a legal nonlicensed program are required to have a background study. Most children (ages 13-17) living in the household will continue to be required to have a background study based on their name and date of birth. Once the enhanced studies for child care programs are available, there are a limited number of circumstances in which a child living in the household would be required to have a fingerprint-based FBI background study. These are when:

• They supervise children, or
• They are employed by the child care provider, or
• They live outside of Minnesota, or
• They have lived outside of Minnesota at any time in the last five years, or
• They have a Minnesota criminal record, or
• There is reasonable cause to believe that they may have a criminal record in another state.

Note: The Department has authority to require an individual (ages 10 and older), who does not provide services but may have unsupervised access to children in care, to obtain a background study when there is reasonable cause.
Reasonable cause means that information exists that indicates the person may have a history that would disqualify the individual from having contact with children in care or that the person may pose a risk to of
health or safety to children in care.

Here is the "Background Study Worksheet" that you can use to see if any household member (including minor children) need to have a background check and/or fingerprinting.

All info came from this DHS page/site

https://mn.gov/dhs/general-public/background-studies/faqs/ccdbg/

[Mad_Pistachio]

Do they require fingerprinting for coaches, custodians, priests, bus drivers, etc.?

probably, bus drivers and custodians need to be fingerprinted because they are part of the school system. coaches within school system may depend on whether they are paid or volunteers. I just submitted the volunteer records check form for our public school system (literally, half an hour ago), and no FP was mentioned.
the question of church workers is actually interesting. on the one hand, say, Sunday School teachers are left with children while parents are not in the classroom. on the other hand, they are volunteers. I need to ask our children's minister about that: our state just started fingerprinting in April, so it's still raw and green.

[hwichlaz]

Do they require fingerprinting for coaches, custodians, priests, bus drivers, etc.? I feel it's important to keep littles without voices, protected, by all means. But don't single some possible criminal accesses without including the requirement of everyone. Same requirements across the board, and yes, while I think underage might be overstepping a bit how many school shootings are happening because the underage are gaining access to weapons? A 14 yo boy just stabbed a girl at an OK school, 1st day and they were all gathered in an auditorium. But then, how would fingerprinting been able to prevent that?

School employess are certainly live scanned/background checked. In California anyone that works with children has to be. Scout leaders, coaches, even the Team Mom. Priests/clergy do if they work in schools.

I can't think of one single state that doesn't require school employees, including the bus driver and janitor, to be finger printed.

[kidsncats]

Rather than split hairs over the word "choice" I'll list examples of actual choices:

1. Fingerprint or DNA swab.

2. Fingerprint or bi annual background checks.

3. Fingerprint or Retina Scan.

I would go with option 2.