Lingering DCD

[nannyde]

Nannyde do you mind if I ask how you approach the parents with this and impliment it?? What do you say to them? I know that i have some parents i would love to do this with, however, I know it would be more of an issue when i tell them they cant come inside.....

how do you make it work??

I tell them I don't like the fussing at the door. The kid doesn't fuss when you leave so leave him at the door.

My day care parents know me and know I don't do drama with the kids. I'm strict and expect them to behave. If they don't behave I have to deal with it.

I can only think of one time in the last five years I have had to do it. Lasted three days. The parents get really bored with having more "quality" time with their kid at my front door so they buckle up and put a stop to the behavior.

I'm willing to loose the kid over it. If it has to come to that it has to come to that. Some times you have to be strict with the parents. It's uncomfortable but it's SO worth it.

[misol]

you should write a book. i would buy 10.

my favorite so far is "circling the post". you crack me up. ::

Ditto!!!

I'd buy books from a couple of other posters on here too .

[Cat Herder]

I feel like I met the daycare godess.... on my knees taking a bow....
Thanks nannde... Im call you rescue nanny 911...

She is....

I have spent hours and hours reading her posts. She is why I joined here instead of just trolling through.

[nannyde]

She is....

I have spent hours and hours reading her posts. She is why I joined here instead of just trolling through.

I just bought the domain name: daycarewhisperer.com

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa ::

It will make it easier for people like you to stalk me.

[Cat Herder]

I just bought the domain name: daycarewhisperer.com

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It will make it easier for people like you to stalk me.

Whooohooo!!! ::::::

[QualiTcare]

okay, i didn't read all of the posts - i saw nannyde mention the "bye bye at the door" philosophy which i didn't read either bc i've seen it before. i normally agree with the whole theory, but i think with this kid being the only kid who has the issue and also being the only one who doesn't have his dad around all the time - i think it's probably a little deeper than a "control issue" and he probably genuinely misses his dad since he is the non-custodial parent.

that doesn't mean you should let it fly because of that. i think the "bye bye program" could still work, but i might approach the dad about it in private and with a little more sensitivity than i would with a kid who was doing it with the mom/dad they lived with on a daily basis. i'm sure it's harder for a child and a parent to say their goodbyes when they know they won't see them later that afternoon or maybe not for another week or whatever the case may be. if you can talk to the dad and let him know you understand the dynamic but get him to say his goodbyes before he approaches your home the kid will adjust.

basically, i agree with nannyde, but i think the dynamic is different being that it's a non-custodial parent issue and should be addressed as such.

[melskids]

i love nannyde's approach, but agree with qualiT too. i was going to mention the same thing. i have one dcb who acts differently depending on who drops off / picks up. with mom, he's a hot mess. with step dad, its an easy transition. with dad, he knows to not even play that, he gets his own shoes and coat on, and waits by the door. another family, both brother and sister who are older SA and KNOW better, become devils when mom shows up. when dad is here, they know better. so kids know how to play the game. i bet in the OP's case, this little boy is probably not seeing his daddy alot, and having a hard time with all the transitions. i would show empathy, but i still would'nt tolerate it. maybe have a talk with dad, and set ground rules. like one hug and a kiss, a high five, whatever, and then he LEAVES. no coming back in (lock the door behind him) tell him if he's really worried, he can call after he pulls out of the driveway.

[nannyde]

okay, i didn't read all of the posts - i saw nannyde mention the "bye bye at the door" philosophy which i didn't read either bc i've seen it before. i normally agree with the whole theory, but i think with this kid being the only kid who has the issue and also being the only one who doesn't have his dad around all the time - i think it's probably a little deeper than a "control issue" and he probably genuinely misses his dad since he is the non-custodial parent.

that doesn't mean you should let it fly because of that. i think the "bye bye program" could still work, but i might approach the dad about it in private and with a little more sensitivity than i would with a kid who was doing it with the mom/dad they lived with on a daily basis. i'm sure it's harder for a child and a parent to say their goodbyes when they know they won't see them later that afternoon or maybe not for another week or whatever the case may be. if you can talk to the dad and let him know you understand the dynamic but get him to say his goodbyes before he approaches your home the kid will adjust.

basically, i agree with nannyde, but i think the dynamic is different being that it's a non-custodial parent issue and should be addressed as such.

I don't know.

For one the Dad obviously HAD thirty extra minutes this morning to one to one his kid, be with him, bond... give him lovin. Why couldn't they have done that at home? Why couldn't he have kept little guy home for thirty minutes and just give him undivided loving fatherly attention?

The drop off at day care shouldn't be a bonding experience between parent and child. Once you take your kid out in public and there is a transfer of who is caring for the child the idea is to make that transfer go smoothly for EVERYBODY... not just the kid and the Dad. It's the Dad's responsibility to make sure the kid is on his best behavior during these times. He wasn't doing this and was actually purposefully escalating the child by playing "poopy head" games ... leaving.. and returning to gear him back up.

I think there is a contingent of parents who really LIKE the drama at the door. They want to have that activity with the kid AROUND another adult. There's something inside of them that likes "showing off" their "I love me and mines the most bestest ever in the history of parenthood".

The Dad is most likely not dense in the head. After a few minutes it was most likely painfully clear that the provider didn't like the behavior in her house but he felt powerful and bold enough to let it go on and on and on... leave... then restart and go on and on and on.

THAT is a badly behaved adult. We shouldn't have to be any part of that just because they are a "parent" and it's "my child". If they are going to do the "me and mines" then they need to do it in PRIVATE where it REALLY counts.

Love up your kid and give your kid THAT kind of attention when you and your family are with them. Don't do it at the expense of a house full of people in public. It's rude.

If he's lacking in time with his kid. If he is having bad feelings about how much he is really raising his kid... then work with the other parent and make some changes. Don't involve a house full of people that have NOTHING to do with it by putting on a dog and pony show of badly behaving kid and adult at the door while she is trying to operate her business.

[missnikki]

Nan, I don't always agree with you but you are absolutely correct about this. I work with Kindergarten kids, and the first week of school morning drop off is crazy, for this very reason. Only these kids are here as a legal requirement, and some parents have sheltered them to lead the household for the child's entire life only to unravel at that very moment.
I've done similar, I give them one goodbye of their choice at the door- blow a kiss, a hug, a special whatever, and once they come in they do it, and leave. I call it "Cutting bait". I put my hand on the child's shoulder, turn them around, and walk them into the room and introduce them to the other kids. I comepletely ignore the parent at that point. When the parent insists on lingering, I look back at them and tell them "We're good, see you later!" and block the visual path between parent and kid. The kicker is this: if the child is crying or trying to get to the lingering parent, I ruin the special bonding by talking to the parent about it as the child has their breakdown. I tell them that I will happily email a picture of the kid in a few minutes to set them at ease, but if they don't leave, they will have to take the child home and try again tomorrow. Since we've already discussed it beforehand, they know I'm serious and am not going to put up with it. I've never had the same parent pull it again after I threatened to turn them away. In fact, once they leave, and they get that picture sent to them of the kid smiling or playing, they are ALL ABOUT dropping off quickly. I have had more parents over the years tell me once their child is grown into the upper grades, that letting them go to me that first day was the hardest thing to do but they felt so at ease with leaving their precious snowflake once they got that picture. It seems to work.

[grandmom]

nannyde - I agree with you completely, in fact I copied it to memorize.

missnikki - I agree with you too

In the interview, in my sweetest voice, I tell parents:

When the time comes and their child starts to whine or act out when you are dropping them off, I will say to you in my special voice "Good bye mom" and that is your cue to get out of my house. You are welcome to linger outside for as long as you like, but if you peek around and your child sees you, they are going to work with you.

Then the first time it happens I say "good bye mom", take the child and walk away.

[Live and Learn]

I think there is a contingent of parents who really LIKE the drama at the door.

I do believe this. It is as is some parents want to show all adults present that "their child" misses them desperately when the parent is gone to work. It is not helpful to the child at all ....it just makes an insecure parent feel passionately and deeply cared for in a "car crash type" of spectacle.

When I see this type of behavior bubbling up at drop off I say " Bye Mommy! Have a nice day!".... Grasp lil guy's hand and walk away. Works every time. All my dc parents know that drop offs and pick ups should be short and sweet.

[Live and Learn]

The dad also will call him names like poopy-head or stinky-butt that dcb gets in trouble if he says here. How would you handle this?

I think I would say sweet as pie, "Lil junior has been using bathroom talk during the day. Please work with me to curb this behavior."

[QualiTcare]

I don't know.

For one the Dad obviously HAD thirty extra minutes this morning to one to one his kid, be with him, bond... give him lovin. Why couldn't they have done that at home? Why couldn't he have kept little guy home for thirty minutes and just give him undivided loving fatherly attention?

The drop off at day care shouldn't be a bonding experience between parent and child. Once you take your kid out in public and there is a transfer of who is caring for the child the idea is to make that transfer go smoothly for EVERYBODY... not just the kid and the Dad. It's the Dad's responsibility to make sure the kid is on his best behavior during these times. He wasn't doing this and was actually purposefully escalating the child by playing "poopy head" games ... leaving.. and returning to gear him back up.

I think there is a contingent of parents who really LIKE the drama at the door. They want to have that activity with the kid AROUND another adult. There's something inside of them that likes "showing off" their "I love me and mines the most bestest ever in the history of parenthood".

The Dad is most likely not dense in the head. After a few minutes it was most likely painfully clear that the provider didn't like the behavior in her house but he felt powerful and bold enough to let it go on and on and on... leave... then restart and go on and on and on.

THAT is a badly behaved adult. We shouldn't have to be any part of that just because they are a "parent" and it's "my child". If they are going to do the "me and mines" then they need to do it in PRIVATE where it REALLY counts.

Love up your kid and give your kid THAT kind of attention when you and your family are with them. Don't do it at the expense of a house full of people in public. It's rude.

If he's lacking in time with his kid. If he is having bad feelings about how much he is really raising his kid... then work with the other parent and make some changes. Don't involve a house full of people that have NOTHING to do with it by putting on a dog and pony show of badly behaving kid and adult at the door while she is trying to operate her business.

i didn't say it was okay for him to continue doing what he was doing. i actually said it needed to be stopped and i agree doing the exchange at the door would solve the problem.

i just don't think it's the typical power struggle or dramatic parent in this case.

the dad spending an extra 30 minutes "giving lovin'" at home wouldn't change a thing. there are husbands that go away for work and their wives know months in advance it's going to happen. that doesn't stop the water-works when the time actually comes. someone who sends their child to kindergarten has 5 years to prepare and give them love, but the actual moment of separation is still hard.

again, the fact that this dad/child might have a tough time with goodbyes due to the circumstances doesn't mean the provider should let it go. i think the same method would work with them that works with parents who are just dramatic or kids who are playing their parents. i'm just saying, i think in this particular case - it's not a matter of drama or stubborness, but more than likely it's a child who knows his dad WON'T be there that afternoon and a dad who has a hard time letting go bc of it.

[Dsquared]

https://www.daycare.com/forum/showth...changing+guard

I call the dynamic of bad behavior at drop off and pick up "Changing of the Guard" behavior. It is seen primarily in children who are in charge of the relationship with their parents. It is seen in children who are more powerful than their parents and parents who want their child to be powerful/happy/special/ more than they want the child to have good public and interpersonal relationship. The parent does not want the child to cry so outbursts of obviously inappropriate behavior are acceptable to the parent as long as the child does them without crying and is happy. The harshest discipline used for these kids is "corporal coddling".

Changing of the guard behavior at drop off is when the child goes from being in power/control while in the care of his parents to the provider being in power/control while in the care of the provider. The child cries or acts out because they do not want to relinquish their control. They don't want the control to go to the provider so they delay the transfer of power by acting out.

They also want the provider to see that they are in control because arrivals and departures are the only opportunity the child has to make it clear to the provider that they are in control. As soon as the door closes behind the parent the child looses that really powerful position as their power supply has just backed up out the driveway.

At pick ups again the child realizes that once their power supply (parents) have arrived that they are back into power. They see that the parent again gives them the kingdom and you the provider aren't stopping them from taking over. They are used to the provider being the leader ALL day long so they KNOW something is terribly wrong when you all of a sudden stop leading.

All the kid sees is two adults who are not making him stop and demanding he behave properly in public. He has no choice to become the leader because the adults around him are not doing it. He loves to be the leader but unfortunately is ill equipped for the job as he is just a child. Children should NEVER lead adults. Children should NEVER lead themselves or other children. They are terribly inadaquate leaders. When they are allowed the job of leader the entire time they are in that role everything falls apart. Everyone is unhappy and nothing works out well.

The parent is often misbehaving at the drop off and pick up too. The parent knows when their child is behaving badly in public. They know how the adults around them looks when their child is acting up. They can feel the negative energy and exhasted energy from the adults around their child's public display of bad behavior. THEY KNOW THE PROVIDER HATES IT but they don't take over. They don't put a stop to it.

The parents often feel the provider works FOR them and because they are paying the provider that the provider should just have to DEAL with this witnessing of poor behavior. The parent doesn't care if it upsets you, your other day care kids, your kids. They are paying you and you better get to toleration quick or they will scoot on out your business.

The parent may have some other motivations for allowing it too. They may WANT the child to hang out at the day care before they go to work and after they are off of work because they are trying to get the kid off of their clock for as long as possible. There are a certain segment of parent population who allow misbehavior at drop off and pick up as a STALL technique to keep the child at day care longer. These are the ones that allow a wide breadth of time for their kid to be in care when they really only need nine hours. These parents will often pick providers with open hours so the parent can use time BEFORE work and AFTER work to be at the providers house with the kid because they don't want to be home with the kid by themselves any longer than they have to.



The provider is in a bad situation too. She doesn't like the changing of the guard behavior. She wants the child to behave as he does when SHE is leading him. She feels she can't discipline kids in front of their parent. She knows she wouldn't want someone disciplining HER kids in front of her so she sits back praying to Jesus that the parent put the kabosh on this and take over.

She also knows that it's a pretty touchy deal to start disciplining the kid especially at pick up time. She could offend the parent and the parent could pull the kid. She really really WANTS the kid to LEAVE so she can get on with her own family so she doesn't want to do ANYTHING to get prolong it.

So now you have the perfect storm. The child is being bombarded with badly behaving adults ... adults who are not being true to their feelings... adults who will not do WHATEVER it takes to show the child that the child can NEVER lead in their presence....

and a child who is BEGGING for calm stable minute to minute leadership

I don't have this dynamic in my day care because I do not EVER allow a child to lead in my home. I don't allow them to lead me or lead their parents. From the second the kid hits the inside of my house they are being led by ME. I don't leave the leadership up to the parents. I'm glad when I have ones that DO lead but I'm the leadingest leader no matter what.

IF a child is acting up at arrivals and departures despite my insistence that I be the leader then I institute the "Buh Bye Outside" program. This is where the parent says good bye to the child outside my door at drop off and does NOT come into the house. At pick up "I" say good bye to the child inside the house and send them out the door and the parent does NOT come in the house.

Both arrival and departure the child does not see the parent and I together. The parent brings the child to my door in the morning and says their goodbyes on my front step. They have as long as they want to say goodbye. They can spend an hour there if that's what they need. Once the parent knocks on my door then that is the signal that they are COMPLETELY DONE saying goodbye.

I open the door and just take the child over my threshold and shut the door very quickly. That makes the transition VERY short for the kid. This allows the parent to be the only adult tolerating the child's bad behavior. This takes away the audience for the child and parents bad behavior. This takes away the element of "you have to put up with my prince/princesses behavior because I am the boss of you and I pay you".

At departure the parent is to call me within five minutes of the arrival and we do the same thing in reverse. As soon as the parent arrives on my doorstep I open it up and assist the kid back over the threshold and quickly shut my door.

Rinse and repeat.

It usually takes about three days of the buh bye outside program to get both the parent and child to behave. By the third day the parent is bored out of their mind standing outside with their kid. The kid realizes that there isn't an audience for his behavior and the message that ANY time he is around the provider the provider is in charge is not broken or challenged.

I can always tell when we are ready to start integrating them back into the house by the decrease in the kids fit. I watch them thru the window. When the kid just comes and stands at my doorway looking at the door then I know it's time to start letting them EASE their way back into saying goodbye inside the house.

I start by allowing it at drop off but if the child causes any chaos they go back to saying good bye outside immediately. If drop off goes well for a few days then we try the inside departure. The slightest hint that the kid is going to act up and we go back to just donig the departure outside.

It's very important for the provider to take charge of the entire time the child is in your home. If you allow the parents to be the leader you will very often find that they won't do it. There are a LOT of parents who feel that their child should lead because they are special and they are theirs. It is becoming increasingly difficult to find parents who believe that they should always lead and that it is an embarrasment and a shame for their child to behave poorly around the day care.

It is an embarrasment and a shame that kids behave badly in public. We are their public. The only way to get the whole cycle to stop in my experience is to completely take charge of the entire thing. I don't allow ANY misbehavior when they are in my home. I don't hesitate in ANY way to discipline the children when they are under my roof. I don't give a flip whether their parents are here or not. The children NEVER see my behavior change when their parents arrive. I don't act differently to the child when the parent is here. I'm just as strict with my expectations whether the parent is there or not.

I don't allow parents to misbehave in my house. If they do not seize control of their kid and despite my interjections the kids are still acting up then they are not allowed the PRIVLEDGE of doing arrivals and departures inside my home. Once the parent and child looses the privledge of arrivals and departures inside they very quickly get bored of the rediculous behavior and start behaviing... BOTH the parent and the child start behaving.

Bottom line is stop allowing the kid and the parent to misbehave on your properly. Your house your rulses for EVERYBODY. Be the leader the child and parent need you to be. Be the leader every second of the time you have them in your home.

When you lead they will follow and peace will be yours.

Awesome, we need this for one DCM. It's been 6 months and she still acts like its the first week of her going back to work.

[Christian Mother]

I just bought the domain name: daycarewhisperer.com

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa ::

It will make it easier for people like you to stalk me.

Nannyde- let me know when you start writing on your webpage bc I will be reading all the time!! You have great ideals and also gives me courage to not let my DCP push me around.