I Know This Has Been Said Over and Over Again But....

[Max]

That is not what MN law says. It's what YOUR lawyer is saying. It is not MN law/regulations for child care providers

Nope, the provider would be in trouble for NOT allowing the father to pick up.

The ONLY way I can deny a father (custodial or not) access to his child is if I have COURT PAPERS saying I can't let the child go.

A written statement from the unwed mother will NOT protect me nor does it give me the right to deny the father.

If the unwed mother does not want the father having access, then she needs to go to court and get the proper paperwork.

That is MN FAMILY CHILD CARE LAW (Rule 2) which I am legally bound to follow.

http://tomcopelandblog.com/how-to-re...s-with-parents

I think it is what MN law says. Yes, it is also coming from my lawyer, but from what I read of the statutes, he is reaffirming what they say. He's been practicing family law (adoptions, custody, foster care, etc.) for 25 years, was Attorney of the Year a few years ago, and has significant experience with the Minnesota Supreme Court. I mention those things because he isn't just another family lawyer... he's very reputable and this is his area of expertise.

The link to Tom's blog says:

Q: “This happened to me this morning. A single mother who never been married to the father tells me do not let her father pick her up. What do I do?”

A: I assume you know who the father is. The answer can vary depending on your state. In Minnesota the mother has all the rights to the child if the parents were never married. Unless you know your state law, I would honor the wishes of the mother and not let the father pick up the child. If the father objects, ask the father to produce something in writing from a court that says he can pick up. If he tries to argue about this and insists on taking the child, call 911.

Q: “What if you don’t know the father and he has been gone for years, no court orders, never married?”

A: Take reasonable steps to prevent him from taking the child. Call the mother. If he takes the child, call 911.

All the other Q & As seem to refer to married couples, which is totally different for fathers and custody.

"If the father objects, ask the father to produce something in writing from a court that says he can pick up." <- a birth cert wouldn't qualify.

[Blackcat31]

I think you are talking about parental custody as it effects YOU....a parent trying to keep the other from having access.....for whatever reasons...

But I don't care about how it effects parents....

I ONLY care about what I am legally allowed to do.

Q: “What if a mother never listed a father on the paperwork because they are not together?”

A: Unless you have a copy of a court order that restricts the rights of the father, the father still has rights to his child, even if he is not living with the mother.


Q: “If a parent is not on a pick up list do they have to prove they are the parent before I would release the child?”

A: If you know the parent is the parent, and you don’t have a court document that says the parent has lost the rights to the child, then they can pick up the child, regardless of whether their name is on the pick up list.


As a licensed child care provider I am LEGALLY required to allow a parent access to their child UNLESS I have COURT documents stating otherwise. A written statement by the mother (unwed or otherwise) is NOT enough to protect MY liability.

The ONLY way I would ever deny a parent (of ANY child) access is if I have court documents saying I must do so.

I think the point we are both trying to make is overlapped between what you feel as a parent and what is the law according to child care.

I don't care what the law is for parents disputing custody between themselves...I only care what law is applicable to me as a business owner.

[Max]

I think you are talking about parental custody as it effects YOU

I'm not talking about how it effects me, I specifically asked my lawyer (and read the statutes as such) from a provider's POV. And also have been speaking on what rights a father legally has (in MN).

Q: “What if a mother never listed a father on the paperwork because they are not together?”

A: Unless you have a copy of a court order that restricts the rights of the father, the father still has rights to his child, even if he is not living with the mother.


Q: “If a parent is not on a pick up list do they have to prove they are the parent before I would release the child?”

A: If you know the parent is the parent, and you don’t have a court document that says the parent has lost the rights to the child, then they can pick up the child, regardless of whether their name is on the pick up list.

Again, those Q & As are assuming the parents were not unwed at the time of birth.

As a licensed child care provider I am LEGALLY required to allow a parent access to their child UNLESS I have COURT documents stating otherwise. A written statement by the mother (unwed or otherwise) is NOT enough to protect MY liability.

I think this is where we disagree... The statutes and info from multiple family lawyers both say an unwed birth father doesn't have legal rights to custody/visit, therefore, DCP do not have to release.

I think the point we are both trying to make is overlapped between what you feel as a parent and what is the law according to child care.

I don't care what the law is for parents disputing custody between themselves...I only care what law is applicable to me as a business owner.

Actually quite the opposite I'm not trying to argue how I feel, but how this issue legally applies to DCP.

Two very reputable family lawyers verified unwed birth dads do not have legal custody/visitation rights. One lawyer and the specific Q&As I copied from Tom's blog verified DCP should not release under those specific circumstances. Statutes seem to verify this as well (the ones I posted about earlier).

If we are at an impasse then maybe we should just leave this as it is? I'd like to have the absolute answer but we both seem certain we are right and idk who else could clarify besides a family lawyer (I could ask my licensor and if there was a conflict, put her in touch with my lawyer? Or any lawyer; it seems you think mine isn't necessarily right because I hired him?)

[Blackcat31]

I'm not talking about how it effects me, I specifically asked my lawyer (and read the statutes as such) from a provider's POV. And also have been speaking on what rights a father legally has (in MN).



Again, those Q & As are assuming the parents were not unwed at the time of birth.



I think this is where we disagree... The statutes and info from multiple family lawyers both say an unwed birth father doesn't have legal rights to custody/visit, therefore, DCP do not have to release.



Actually quite the opposite I'm not trying to argue how I feel, but how this issue legally applies to DCP.

Two very reputable family lawyers verified unwed birth dads do not have legal custody/visitation rights. One lawyer and the specific Q&As I copied from Tom's blog verified DCP should not release under those specific circumstances. Statutes seem to verify this as well (the ones I posted about earlier).

If we are at an impasse then maybe we should just leave this as it is? I'd like to have the absolute answer but we both seem certain we are right and idk who else could clarify besides a family lawyer (I could ask my licensor and if there was a conflict, put her in touch with my lawyer? Or any lawyer; it seems you think mine isn't necessarily right because I hired him?)

Again, I have been a child care provider in MN for over 2 decades.... I have actually been in the situation where an unwed mother wanted the father to not have access to the child. I had no COURT DOCUMENTS saying anything. The father had met the child at birth only.

I called the police. Guess who got to take their child?
Yep...the father. Know why? Because the mother did not go to court and get legal COURT DOCUMENTS stating the father had no access.

I have NEVER been advised to do anything other than to follow COURT DOCUMENTS stating who can and can't pick up or access a child.

Unless I have court documents I WILL release a child to a parent. NO MATTER what the other parents says or writes down on paper.

Why would my disbelief of what your attorney says have anything to do with you hiring him? This isn't personal. :confused:

It's legal and as a licensed child care provider that signed and agreed to follow MN child care rules and regulations the only directives I will follow are those written in COURT DOCUMENTATION.

I am not trying to get you to believe that I am right or wrong... it's NOT personal.

I am only trying to tell you MY experience as a LICENSED child care provider in MN according to licensing laws.

If your licensor or your attorney tells you anything different.... make sure you get it in writing.

Because personal beliefs or "he said" won't protect your liability.

[Max]

I don't take any of it personal you said earlier to keep in mind that if I was consulting/hiring an attorney, they may just tell me what I want to hear. And emphasized this is what MY lawyer said. I apologize if I misinterpreted that. My experience with consults has been the opposite, lawyers (at least good ones) are very careful to not make promises or just tell you what they know you want to hear It wouldn't benefit him whatsoever to give me inaccurate info in this situation.

As far as the situation you were in before with police, it could be that laws changed since then (depending how long ago it was) or that the officer didn't know the law correctly. Which yes, the same could be said of a lawyer, or even a licensor I personally trust a lawyer's advice over what an officer says; a lawyer's job is to interpret law while an officer enforces it. A family lawyer deals with this type of stuff day in and day out and an officer has to enforce a wide variety of laws (definitly not hating on officers, I have much respect for them!)

I meant no disrespect to your experience as a provider :confused: None whatsoever! I think I just have to respectfully disagree with your policy. I did get it in writing so I would be comfortable enforcing what my lawyer said. I also plan to clarify with my licensor to be safe. I totally agree 'he said' is not adequate protection. But if both are saying not to release in this specific situation, then I'll do that.

[Max]

JW - don't you think it's possible that, just maybe, what I'm arguing is correct? That it might be worth bringing this info to your licensor to iron out? Each licensor may interpret laws/rules differently... but multiple lawyers saying the same thing seems clear to me :confused:

I'm not trying to be facetious or condescending at all... I understand you have a lot of experience and I truly do respect that. It's honestly a huge reason why I'm bugging about this topic... . It just doesn't feel right not being on the same page as a well-established pro

I understand your concerns over trusting others b/c of liability but in the end, whose word should we take? Our licensor? Our own interpretation of what statutes say? A lawyer?

Idk it just seems to me that a lawyer would be the best to get advice from b/c if anything happens, that's the person fighting for (or against) you in court..

[Blackcat31]

JW - don't you think it's possible that, just maybe, what I'm arguing is correct? That it might be worth bringing this info to your licensor to iron out? Each licensor may interpret laws/rules differently... but multiple lawyers saying the same thing seems clear to me :confused:

I'm not trying to be facetious or condescending at all... I understand you have a lot of experience and I truly do respect that. It's honestly a huge reason why I'm bugging about this topic... . It just doesn't feel right not being on the same page as a well-established pro

I understand your concerns over trusting others b/c of liability but in the end, whose word should we take? Our licensor? Our own interpretation of what statutes say? A lawyer?

Idk it just seems to me that a lawyer would be the best to get advice from b/c if anything happens, that's the person fighting for (or against) you in court..

We have a help line for any question we need to clarify or ask to DHS. I submitted the following:

"If an unwed mother gives me a written statement saying I cannot allow her child's biological father to pick up the child, can I legally deny access?"

This is DHS's response:

"Family Child Care providers may not deny a parent access to their child. Court documents must be present on site and provided for any child within a custody or parental dispute. If necessary call 911."

Here is the link to ask DHS...you can ask them yourself.

http://www.dhs.state.mn.us/main/idcplg?IdcService=GET_DYNAMIC_CONVERSION&RevisionSelectionMethod=LatestReleased&dDocName=DHS-285366

[Blackcat31]

JW - don't you think it's possible that, just maybe, what I'm arguing is correct? That it might be worth bringing this info to your licensor to iron out? Each licensor may interpret laws/rules differently... but multiple lawyers saying the same thing seems clear to me :confused:

I understand and agree that licensors more than likely all interpret the rules and regs differently. That is why I never just take what my licensor says at face value.
I ask for proof in writing. I also take the info I am provided during trainings and apply. If I am unsure, I contact DHS (as I posted above)

I'm not trying to be facetious or condescending at all... I understand you have a lot of experience and I truly do respect that. It's honestly a huge reason why I'm bugging about this topic... . It just doesn't feel right not being on the same page as a well-established pro

I am not taking it that way at all..

I am also not relying on my opinion...I am relying on the facts as I know them to be true. My experience was simply an example of how the information I have played out for me in real life.

I understand your concerns over trusting others b/c of liability but in the end, whose word should we take? Our licensor? Our own interpretation of what statutes say? A lawyer?

I take NO ONE's word. I take and follow the written regulations and the written rules for MN family child care that were provided to me upon licensing and re-licensing.

Whether I believe the parent or not has nothing to do with having paperwork.

If an unwed mother is truly concerned about the welfare of her child and has good reason to not want her child to have access to the other parent, then she needs to ensure that will not happen by going to court and getting the required paperwork so that I, as her provider (not her attorney or counsel) does not have to be in the middle of something that has nothing to do with me.

Idk it just seems to me that a lawyer would be the best to get advice from b/c if anything happens, that's the person fighting for (or against) you in court..

I agree that a lawyer is a great place/person to get advice from but our state has rules and regulations for FCC providers and if or when one of those rules don't support or coincide with what an attorney is saying I would still opt to adhere to the rules and regulations I signed off on (agreeing to) until that regulation or rule has been legally changed to reflect a new or changed thought process.

[Max]

We have a help line for any question we need to clarify or ask to DHS. I submitted the following:

"If an unwed mother gives me a written statement saying I cannot allow her child's biological father to pick up the child, can I legally deny access?"

This is DHS's response:

"Family Child Care providers may not deny a parent access to their child. Court documents must be present on site and provided for any child within a custody or parental dispute. If necessary call 911."

Here is the link to ask DHS...you can ask them yourself.

http://www.dhs.state.mn.us/main/idcp...ame=DHS-285366

I don't have a license number yet I'll try to get a hold of DHS another way - thanks!

If an unwed mother is truly concerned about the welfare of her child and has good reason to not want her child to have access to the other parent, then she needs to ensure that will not happen by going to court and getting the required paperwork so that I, as her provider (not her attorney or counsel) does not have to be in the middle of something that has nothing to do with me.

It's not that easy. I wholeheartedly agree providers shouldn't have to be put in the middle but getting court orders could take months, even over a year, and up to $20,000 to get settled. Even with the time and money, evidence may be lacking so the court may have no choice but to deny a request for a protection order.

Granted, yes, this isn't the providers problem. I'm just saying it's not necessarily a solution

[Annalee]

I don't have a license number yet I'll try to get a hold of DHS another way - thanks!



It's not that easy. I wholeheartedly agree providers shouldn't have to be put in the middle but getting court orders could take months, even over a year, and up to $20,000 to get settled. Even with the time and money, evidence may be lacking so the court may have no choice but to deny a request for a protection order.

Granted, yes, this isn't the providers problem. I'm just saying it's not necessarily a solution

This is a little different but I have a child being adopted by family members but the biological parents will have unsupervised visiting rights....I have a copy of the court declaration but I can't refuse pick up for either party....I can call the primary adopting parents but I can't refuse pickup no matter what without a court order....this is the law and DHS regulation in my state. I don't think we can refuse parental pick up AT ALL without a court order??

[Max]

I agree that a lawyer is a great place/person to get advice from but our state has rules and regulations for FCC providers and if or when one of those rules don't support or coincide with what an attorney is saying I would still opt to adhere to the rules and regulations I signed off on (agreeing to) until that regulation or rule has been legally changed to reflect a new or changed thought process.

Where exactly does a rule/reg go against this? I couldn't find anything specifically that challenges this situation. The closest I got was:

9502.1655
Subp. 19. Mother. "Mother" means a woman who was not married to her child's father when the child was born or when the child was conceived.
Subp. 21. Parent. "Parent" means a person who has the legal responsibility for a child such as the child's mother, father, or legally appointed guardian.

^doesn't define father or dad

9502.0405
F. A provider shall release a child from care only to a parent or a person authorized by the parent.

The last one doesn't say 'mother' but 'parent' meaning a person with the legal responsibility of a child. Other statutes that define who has legal responsibility of a child (I think I mentioned them before in this thread) say an unwed birth father does not have the legal responsibility for a child. Not until a court doc says so.

[daycarediva]

We have a help line for any question we need to clarify or ask to DHS. I submitted the following:

"If an unwed mother gives me a written statement saying I cannot allow her child's biological father to pick up the child, can I legally deny access?"

This is DHS's response:

"Family Child Care providers may not deny a parent access to their child. Court documents must be present on site and provided for any child within a custody or parental dispute. If necessary call 911."

Here is the link to ask DHS...you can ask them yourself.

http://www.dhs.state.mn.us/main/idcp...ame=DHS-285366

BC- great minds! I sent an email to my registrar and she said the same thing. We CANNOT deny access to the father, even if he isn't on the authorized pick up list. I was told to call 911 if I felt inclined with assistance, or if I had never met the father and wanted to verify his identity before releasing the child.

Family court appoints a free guardian ad litem. You can go to court without an attorney. If there IS evidence of the father being unfit, the court will see it. I have had many custody issues and never once has a mother ever paid a dime.

[Max]

the biological parents will have unsupervised visiting rights....

That would have been something they agreed to during the adoption, so it makes sense. The adoptive parents agreed to an open adoption.

[Max]

Family court appoints a free guardian ad litem. You can go to court without an attorney. If there IS evidence of the father being unfit, the court will see it. I have had many custody issues and never once has a mother ever paid a dime.

You can go without an attorney, but in custody or termination of rights cases, it's strongly recommended to have one. And for good reason - I wouldn't want to take any chances with my kids. There's a reason good attorneys cost a lot of $$ And once a court rules on something, that ruling is usually final. Not all evidence holds up in court- and there isn't always solid evidence to go on...

That's not all situations though, just speaking from my experience as you're speaking from yours