CA Providers I Need Your Advice

[daycare]

I pulled the original regulations and the 2014 update. The regulations do not say that the water needs supervision, only the kids. :confused:

The update says:
It is the responsibility of the licensee to ensure the inaccessibility of pools, including swimming
pools (in ground and above ground), fixed in place wading pools, hot tubs, spas, fish ponds or similar bodies of water, through a pool cover or by surrounding the pool with a fence.
NOTE:
Child Care Center fencing requirements are not required for inflatable or portable wading pools with sides low enough for children to step out unassisted; however, these pools should be emptied after each use.
Original regulation is similar, but outlines fence height and locking mechanism requirements.

In the transcript of the training licensing gives, the trainer says only that the wading pool should be filled "immediately prior to use." If it was filled, they got dressed, and then went back outside to use it, it would still be difficult to argue that the OP wasn't following the spirit of the guidelines.

* CDSS training: https://ccld.childcarevideos.org/chi...re/transcript/

In any case, per regs, the children were well supervised and the pool was behind a locked door. I would appeal that citation.

was just thinking about this too. Now withQRIS and FCCERS, it says that we should never make children wait for any extended periods of time. SO in this case this provider was docked by LIC, but would get points for FCCERS, but then turn it around and they would get no violations from LIC but wouldd get docked by FCCERS..

CA needs to get this right....silly I say...FIght this.

[Meeko]

Fight it!!!!

I fought the state about 15 years ago and won. It was worth the hassle.

The inspector understood the reg which states "at least one provider must have current first aid and cpr training" to mean that meant TWO providers must have it.

My husband was my sidekick at that time and had been very ill and unable to renew his training by the time we got inspected. We were always both certified because we wanted to be. But that's OK, because mine was current.

She wrote me up and wouldn't listen to reason. She also wrote me up on a few "what if" scenarios of her own choosing which were not in the regs. SHE wanted to see more stuff in my first aid kit. My kit met regulations to perfection..

So she gave me some "what if" scenario nonsense and wrote me up on that!. I was so angry. I asked her "what if" I don't have a nuclear fallout shelter for all the kids in the case of an attack? Maybe she should write me up for that??? She told me I didn't need to be difficult!

I fought and won and she had to do some "re-training" according to head office.

Had I not spoken up, those findings would have stuck.

Fight it!!

[Blackcat31]

was just thinking about this too. Now withQRIS and FCCERS, it says that we should never make children wait for any extended periods of time. SO in this case this provider was docked by LIC, but would get points for FCCERS, but then turn it around and they would get no violations from LIC but wouldd get docked by FCCERS..

CA needs to get this right....silly I say...FIght this.

The kids weren't waiting though, they were getting their swim suits on so this is no different than any other transition between activities. They all require preperation and clean up.

Our stars/QRIS focuses on smooth transitions and no wait time as well but I don't believe active preparation is considered "waiting" according to FCCERS

The FCCERS score sheets rates on supervision, safety and provider-child communication and discussion during transition and during the activity and imho, all of those things were done/met.

[sharlan]

Bottom line - the kids were supervised, the water was not. Bodies of water must be fenced in or supervised at all times.

[spedmommy4]

Bottom line - the kids were supervised, the water was not. Bodies of water must be fenced in or supervised at all times.

I believe some analysts are interpreting the regs this way. The regulation doesn't read this way. (See above posts) The problem with California licensing laws, in general, is that they tend to be too general. Analysts then interpret the regulations in their own way. That said, the stipulations in the regulations now are that: wading pools are for one time use and the kids are to be supervised. **Unless there is more to the regulation that I have not been able to find on the CDSS website.

[MarinaVanessa]

Okay, I know California can be silly about certain things and I know their regulations aren't very clear but I have to wonder who seriously thinks water requires supervision? ::

Especially when it was posted earlier that:



if ALL the children were inside the house WITH 2 adults and the door was locked then it IS 100% NOT accessible to the children.


OP ~ I'd fight this one all the way. Either the state needs to start being clearer on things or they need to have some training for the licensors/analysts so that interpretation is not so vague and wide open.

It's to prevent someone else from falling in and drowning. For example, adults and kids are inside getting suits on and the pool is outside unsupervised. Another client arrives to drop off her child and the child somehow gets into the back yard, or a client arrives to pick up their child and they go out front and that child somehow gets into the backyard or another child in neighborhood wanders into her yard through wherever (gate accidentally not locked/latched well enough, hole in the fence etc) and goes in the pool and drowns.

I pulled the original regulations and the 2014 update. The regulations do not say that the water needs supervision, only the kids. :confused:

The update says:
It is the responsibility of the licensee to ensure the inaccessibility of pools, including swimming
pools (in ground and above ground), fixed in place wading pools, hot tubs, spas, fish ponds or similar bodies of water, through a pool cover or by surrounding the pool with a fence.

NOTE:
Child Care Center fencing requirements are not required for inflatable or portable wading pools with sides low enough for children to step out unassisted; however, these pools should be emptied after each use.
Original regulation is similar, but outlines fence height and locking mechanism requirements.

In the transcript of the training licensing gives, the trainer says only that the wading pool should be filled "immediately prior to use." If it was filled, they got dressed, and then went back outside to use it, it would still be difficult to argue that the OP wasn't following the spirit of the guidelines.

* CDSS training: https://ccld.childcarevideos.org/chi...re/transcript/

In any case, per regs, the children were well supervised and the pool was behind a locked door. I would appeal that citation.

She won't win, guaranteed. The regulations even with the update clearly say that the pool has to be inaccessible and leaving it alone for any period of time for someone else to come in from anywhere else isn't inaccessible.

Water is a HUGE thing here in CA and she won't win if shes trying to get it cleared from her file. If they come back and try to suspend or revoke her license (which they may very well try to do because it's that serious a violation) then she can fight the punishment and say that she doesn't deserve to lose her license and but she'll still have the violation on file.

I believe some analysts are interpreting the regs this way. The regulation doesn't read this way. (See above posts) The problem with California licensing laws, in general, is that they tend to be too general. Analysts then interpret the regulations in their own way. That said, the stipulations in the regulations now are that: wading pools are for one time use and the kids are to be supervised. **Unless there is more to the regulation that I have not been able to find on the CDSS website.

I read the regulation and to me it's clear. Bodies of water always have to be inaccessible or supervised at all times. Small bodies of water need to be filled immediately before use ... meaning right before you're going to use it. Get suits on first then go outside and fill with water. Dump immediately after the kids get out. Even water tables are like that here in CA ... buckets of water, wagons that get rained on, a hole in your garden etc. If you are not directly supervising a "body of water" that is not fenced off then it's not inaccessible.

[daycare]

The kids weren't waiting though, they were getting their swim suits on so this is no different than any other transition between activities. They all require preperation and clean up.

Our stars/QRIS focuses on smooth transitions and no wait time as well but I don't believe active preparation is considered "waiting" according to FCCERS

The FCCERS score sheets rates on supervision, safety and provider-child communication and discussion during transition and during the activity and imho, all of those things were done/met.

NOOOO. what I was saying that if she did it the way that LIC wanted her to, have all of the kids dressed, pool empty and then fill it up while they wait, then she would have been docked by FCCERS.....

Of course, you could have your asst stay with them and do an activity while you fill up the pools, was just making a statement that it seems like we are damn if we do or damn if we don't..

[daycare]

It's to prevent someone else from falling in and drowning. For example, adults and kids are inside getting suits on and the pool is outside unsupervised. Another client arrives to drop off her child and the child somehow gets into the back yard, or a client arrives to pick up their child and they go out front and that child somehow gets into the backyard or another child in neighborhood wanders into her yard through wherever (gate accidentally not locked/latched well enough, hole in the fence etc) and goes in the pool and drowns.



She won't win, guaranteed. The regulations even with the update clearly say that the pool has to be inaccessible and leaving it alone for any period of time for someone else to come in from anywhere else isn't inaccessible.

Water is a HUGE thing here in CA and she won't win if shes trying to get it cleared from her file. If they come back and try to suspend or revoke her license (which they may very well try to do because it's that serious a violation) then she can fight the punishment and say that she doesn't deserve to lose her license and but she'll still have the violation on file.



I read the regulation and to me it's clear. Bodies of water always have to be inaccessible or supervised at all times. Small bodies of water need to be filled immediately before use ... meaning right before you're going to use it. Get suits on first then go outside and fill with water. Dump immediately after the kids get out. Even water tables are like that here in CA ... buckets of water, wagons that get rained on, a hole in your garden etc. If you are not directly supervising a "body of water" that is not fenced off then it's not inaccessible.

MV you beat me to it...

I was going to comment on both of what you highlighted.

[spedmommy4]

It's to prevent someone else from falling in and drowning. For example, adults and kids are inside getting suits on and the pool is outside unsupervised. Another client arrives to drop off her child and the child somehow gets into the back yard, or a client arrives to pick up their child and they go out front and that child somehow gets into the backyard or another child in neighborhood wanders into her yard through wherever (gate accidentally not locked/latched well enough, hole in the fence etc) and goes in the pool and drowns.



She won't win, guaranteed. The regulations even with the update clearly say that the pool has to be inaccessible and leaving it alone for any period of time for someone else to come in from anywhere else isn't inaccessible.

Water is a HUGE thing here in CA and she won't win if shes trying to get it cleared from her file. If they come back and try to suspend or revoke her license (which they may very well try to do because it's that serious a violation) then she can fight the punishment and say that she doesn't deserve to lose her license and but she'll still have the violation on file.



I read the regulation and to me it's clear. Bodies of water always have to be inaccessible or supervised at all times. Small bodies of water need to be filled immediately before use ... meaning right before you're going to use it. Get suits on first then go outside and fill with water. Dump immediately after the kids get out. Even water tables are like that here in CA ... buckets of water, wagons that get rained on, a hole in your garden etc. If you are not directly supervising a "body of water" that is not fenced off then it's not inaccessible.

Inaccessible/no fence required are the key words in the regs. Pool was outside behind a locked door. That equals inaccessible to kids from inside.

A good lawyer or advocate can argue she was following the intent of the law. Set up, lock door, prep/supervise kids, take down.

If a client arrived for pick up/drop off, and the regs said she had to supervise water-
OP would have to dump pool, go inside with kids, take back outside, refill pool . . . In drought stricken CA. That is nonsensical, even by CA standards. Pools can be made briefly inaccessible by locking the door. (Yes, 2nd adult there but no mention of whether or not the adult could be alone with kids)

We could debate the point endlessly but OPs best bet here is to consult an advocate as mentioned above .

[Blackcat31]

Inaccessible/no fence required are the key words in the regs. Pool was outside behind a locked door. That equals inaccessible to kids from inside.

A good lawyer or advocate can argue she was following the intent of the law. Set up, lock door, prep/supervise kids, take down.

If a client arrived for pick up/drop off, and the regs said she had to supervise water-
OP would have to dump pool, go inside with kids, take back outside, refill pool . . . In drought stricken CA. That is nonsensical, even by CA standards. Pools can be made briefly inaccessible by locking the door. (Yes, 2nd adult there but no mention of whether or not the adult could be alone with kids)

We could debate the point endlessly but OPs best bet here is to consult an advocate as mentioned above .

I'd fight.
I'd rather fight and lose than just accept a citation for something so vague.

[sharlan]

I'd fight.
I'd rather fight and lose than just accept a citation for something so vague.

I agree.

(I'm on vacation in Oregon, in major pain, stuck in a hotel room so I didn't finish my earlier post.)

During my last analyst visit, my new analyst who retired last week told me I should have fought my class A citation for my tomato plants. She said I probably would have won. My old analyst who wrote me up is now my advocate. She said you have nothing to lose.

[daycare]

Inaccessible/no fence required are the key words in the regs. Pool was outside behind a locked door. That equals inaccessible to kids from inside.

A good lawyer or advocate can argue she was following the intent of the law. Set up, lock door, prep/supervise kids, take down.

If a client arrived for pick up/drop off, and the regs said she had to supervise water-
OP would have to dump pool, go inside with kids, take back outside, refill pool . . . In drought stricken CA. That is nonsensical, even by CA standards. Pools can be made briefly inaccessible by locking the door. (Yes, 2nd adult there but no mention of whether or not the adult could be alone with kids)

We could debate the point endlessly but OPs best bet here is to consult an advocate as mentioned above .

if she is a large daycare then she would be in violation of a locked door. IF this was an exit door. you can't lock the doors during business hours. you must have emergency egress door locks. which means always able to open from the inside, but lock on the outside.

[spedmommy4]

if she is a large daycare then she would be in violation of a locked door. IF this was an exit door. you can't lock the doors during business hours. you must have emergency egress door locks. which means always able to open from the inside, but lock on the outside.

That's another way in which California licensing law is interesting/unusual. All large childcares are required to get a fire permit. And that may be a fire regulation in your area but fire regulations aren't uniform throughout the state. They vary based on the area of California you live in.

A interesting example of this is that my friend both had large family childcare licenses and were both required to get permits. We lived in the same city but I was zoned county and she was zoned city. Because I was county, my fire alarm didn't have to be hard wired to my homes electrical and I wasn't required to put up exit signs. She was and the hard wiring cost over $1,000.

Fire regulations for the area I lived in also only required the front door to have a single action lock. I was permitted to lock all the other doors. The Fire Marshall inspected annually in the city I lived in and he was thorough.

[daycare]

That's another way in which California licensing law is interesting/unusual. All large childcares are required to get a fire permit. And that may be a fire regulation in your area but fire regulations aren't uniform throughout the state. They vary based on the area of California you live in.

A interesting example of this is that my friend both had large family childcare licenses and were both required to get permits. We lived in the same city but I was zoned county and she was zoned city. Because I was county, my fire alarm didn't have to be hard wired to my homes electrical and I wasn't required to put up exit signs. She was and the hard wiring cost over $1,000.

Fire regulations for the area I lived in also only required the front door to have a single action lock. I was permitted to lock all the other doors. The Fire Marshall inspected annually in the city I lived in and he was thorough.

That is wacky. Good to know. Both counties I've had a childcare in CA had same fire requirements.

[Nurse Jackie]

Bottom line - the kids were supervised, the water was not. Bodies of water must be fenced in or supervised at all times.

This is what I was told. I don't do pools only a water table and I fill it when we get outside and empty it before we come in.