CA Providers I Need Your Advice

[Unregistered]

Signed out for privacy. Sorry this is long.

Yesterday I was visited by state for an unannounced annual visit. I live in CA.
The inspector and her trainee came in briefly looked around then asked to see the backyard. I let her out back and the first thing she said to her trainee is "Do you see what I see?" What she saw was a blow up wading pool less than 1 1/2 foot deep. We were getting ready to have an end of summer party for a school age child. She told me that I had to have a fence around the pool. I told her no that we were only using it today and it is an inflatable pool I will empty when done. She still said she had to write me up. My daughter showed her the title 22 paragraph that states we can have a wading pool. Then she said she still has to write me up because I left the pool unattended. We had 4 children 2 adults and we were inside putting on swimsuits. The back door was locked. No matter what I said she still wanted to site me. Then she said she would talk to her supervisor. But she got her phone and went out the front door on the porch so I couldn't hear what she said to her. When she came back in she said she had to site me but I could appeal.

The children were never in any danger. My parents are appalled by this they know I would never put their children in harms way.

Has anyone ever had to appeal a citation to California State? I don't know what my chances are or what exactly to do or say when I write my appeal letter. I would appreciate any help.

[daycare]

Signed out for privacy. Sorry this is long.

Yesterday I was visited by state for an unannounced annual visit. I live in CA.
The inspector and her trainee came in briefly looked around then asked to see the backyard. I let her out back and the first thing she said to her trainee is "Do you see what I see?" What she saw was a blow up wading pool less than 1 1/2 foot deep. We were getting ready to have an end of summer party for a school age child. She told me that I had to have a fence around the pool. I told her no that we were only using it today and it is an inflatable pool I will empty when done. She still said she had to write me up. My daughter showed her the title 22 paragraph that states we can have a wading pool. Then she said she still has to write me up because I left the pool unattended. We had 4 children 2 adults and we were inside putting on swimsuits. The back door was locked. No matter what I said she still wanted to site me. Then she said she would talk to her supervisor. But she got her phone and went out the front door on the porch so I couldn't hear what she said to her. When she came back in she said she had to site me but I could appeal.

The children were never in any danger. My parents are appalled by this they know I would never put their children in harms way.

Has anyone ever had to appeal a citation to California State? I don't know what my chances are or what exactly to do or say when I write my appeal letter. I would appreciate any help.

I am in CA and sadly you didn't do it the right way. Rules state that open water of any kind (not even a dog bowl of water) can be left unattended for any reason. Water in pools, water tables, buckets and such must be 100% supervised by an adult at all times or 100% not accessible to the children, meaning a fence or such.

What you would need to do is have all of the children dressed first, then fill up the pool and then stay by the pool 100% of the time. As soon as you are done, dump the pool.

this has come up in many meeting lately and this is my understanding of it. It is not written clearly, but their expectations are what they want them to be and it ****S.

I would still try to appeal this.....

[NillaWafers]

I am in CA and sadly you didn't do it the right way. Rules state that open water of any kind (not even a dog bowl of water) can be left unattended for any reason. Water in pools, water tables, buckets and such must be 100% supervised by an adult at all times or 100% not accessible to the children, meaning a fence or such.

What you would need to do is have all of the children dressed first, then fill up the pool and then stay by the pool 100% of the time. As soon as you are done, dump the pool.

this has come up in many meeting lately and this is my understanding of it. It is not written clearly, but their expectations are what they want them to be and it ****S.

I would still try to appeal this.....

Correct, stupid, but correct.

For this reason alone I don't do pools, mostly because of the drought - I can't justify dumping an entire pool. It's a sprinkler, or water table here.

[spedmommy4]

No, see this update from 2014. Page 6

http://ccld.ca.gov/res/pdf/CCUpdateFall2014.pdf

Child Care Center fencing requirements are not required for inflatable or portable wading
pools with sides low enough for children to step out unassisted; however, these pools should be
emptied after each use

As usual, California is vague. The ONLY thing it says is that wading pools have to be emptied after each use. (I am guessing that was your plan) The regs don't say water cannot ever be unattended. They also don't ban wading pools.

I get the overall concern . . . but the analyst can assess the situation and use common sense. If the pool appears freshly filled, it probably is.

I would appeal, especially since it is probably a more serious health/safety violation.

[thrivingchildcarecom]

I would definitely APPEAL! First, I would email and/or call our CA Provider Advocate and ask for clarification based on what spedmommy4 stated here. Then call your insurance and see if you have coverage for an attorney or legal consultation to help you with your appeal.

PM me if you need the info for the Child Care Advocate. I would be happy to help. This is serious and you need to appeal to clear your record.

[Daycare Insurance]

I would definitely APPEAL! First, I would email and/or call our CA Provider Advocate and ask for clarification based on what spedmommy4 stated here. Then call your insurance and see if you have coverage for an attorney or legal consultation to help you with your appeal.

This is good advice. Call your insurance company to find out if you have some coverage for legal fees. If not, you should find your own attorney to help you appeal the citation. It is always best to have legal representation at administrative hearings. You can check publiccounsel.org or childcarelaw.org for low cost legal help.

[daycare]

but what you are not seeing is that it says 100% supervision of open water that is accessible to the children. If a pool had a fence around it, it would not be accessible.

waiting pools can be used under the conditions that I wrote.

CA LIC is not clear on the regs, I agree, but I do know that this is why she was sighted...I just came back from a training and this is what I was told.

[spedmommy4]

but what you are not seeing is that it says 100% supervision of open water that is accessible to the children. If a pool had a fence around it, it would not be accessible.

waiting pools can be used under the conditions that I wrote.

CA LIC is not clear on the regs, I agree, but I do know that this is why she was sighted...I just came back from a training and this is what I was told.

True, but the kids were 100% supervised. They were all accounted for in her presence. In fact, two adults. A fantastic adult to child ratio.

To boot, the door to the outside was locked. My laundry room was locked and they considered it off limits and not accessible to children in California.

In this scenario, how is the criteria not met? Do the regs say she has to be standing next to the children with the water? What if the licensor showed up and had taken everyone in so she could take someone potty? What if she's alone and answering the door for licensing?

IMHO, either no wading pools or apply some common sense to rule enforcement. In her shoes, I would appeal.

[daycare]

True, but the kids were 100% supervised. They were all accounted for in her presence. In fact, two adults. A fantastic adult to child ratio.

To boot, the door to the outside was locked. My laundry room was locked and they considered it off limits and not accessible to children in California.

In this scenario, how is the criteria not met? Do the regs say she has to be standing next to the children with the water? What if the licensor showed up and had taken everyone in so she could take someone potty? What if she's alone and answering the door for licensing?

IMHO, either no wading pools or apply some common sense to rule enforcement. In her shoes, I would appeal.

the water can NOT be left unsupervised.....I understand that the kids were supervised, but the water must be supervised as well.

water can not be left standing open at anytime without it being 100% supervised or made not accessible to the children.

I think you did the right thing,I don't think that the provider was doing any thing wrong, but licensing says she is. it can take seconds for a kid to slip away from under our supervision and get out into that water..... so they make it the water that has to be 100% supervised as well.

[Blackcat31]

the water can NOT be left unsupervised.....I understand that the kids were supervised, but the water must be supervised as well.

water can not be left standing open at anytime without it being 100% supervised or made not accessible to the children.

I think you did the right thing,I don't think that the provider was doing any thing wrong, but licensing says she is. it can take seconds for a kid to slip away from under our supervision and get out into that water..... so they make it the water that has to be 100% supervised as well.

Okay, I know California can be silly about certain things and I know their regulations aren't very clear but I have to wonder who seriously thinks water requires supervision? ::

Especially when it was posted earlier that:

Water in pools, water tables, buckets and such must be 100% supervised by an adult at all times or 100% not accessible to the children, meaning a fence or such.

if ALL the children were inside the house WITH 2 adults and the door was locked then it IS 100% NOT accessible to the children.


OP ~ I'd fight this one all the way. Either the state needs to start being clearer on things or they need to have some training for the licensors/analysts so that interpretation is not so vague and wide open.

[daycare]

Okay, I know California can be silly about certain things and I know their regulations aren't very clear but I have to wonder who seriously thinks water requires supervision? ::

Especially when it was posted earlier that:



if ALL the children were inside the house WITH 2 adults and the door was locked then it IS 100% NOT accessible to the children.


OP ~ I'd fight this one all the way. Either the state needs to start being clearer on things or they need to have some training for the licensors/analysts so that interpretation is not so vague and wide open.

I agree with your BC, but this is what they are saying. This is the land of the fruits and nuts and I am starting to believe it.

[Blackcat31]

I agree with your BC, but this is what they are saying. This is the land of the fruits and nuts and I am starting to believe it.

The more I read/learn about your rules the more I feel sad for you guys... you try to do everything right and still someone makes it difficult if not impossible for you to feel competent.

I wish it were better/clearer for you all. :hug:

[daycare]

The more I read/learn about your rules the more I feel sad for you guys... you try to do everything right and still someone makes it difficult if not impossible for you to feel competent.

I wish it were better/clearer for you all. :hug:

I think the saddest part is that because they make it so easy to get a license, they have to write rules for those that don't apply or have common sense..... It would be easily fixed if they made it harder to obtain a license, needing more education and qualifications.

[spedmommy4]

I agree with your BC, but this is what they are saying. This is the land of the fruits and nuts and I am starting to believe it.

I pulled the original regulations and the 2014 update. The regulations do not say that the water needs supervision, only the kids. :confused:

The update says:
It is the responsibility of the licensee to ensure the inaccessibility of pools, including swimming
pools (in ground and above ground), fixed in place wading pools, hot tubs, spas, fish ponds or similar bodies of water, through a pool cover or by surrounding the pool with a fence.
NOTE:
Child Care Center fencing requirements are not required for inflatable or portable wading pools with sides low enough for children to step out unassisted; however, these pools should be emptied after each use.
Original regulation is similar, but outlines fence height and locking mechanism requirements.

In the transcript of the training licensing gives, the trainer says only that the wading pool should be filled "immediately prior to use." If it was filled, they got dressed, and then went back outside to use it, it would still be difficult to argue that the OP wasn't following the spirit of the guidelines.

* CDSS training: https://ccld.childcarevideos.org/chi...re/transcript/

In any case, per regs, the children were well supervised and the pool was behind a locked door. I would appeal that citation.

[daycare]

I pulled the original regulations and the 2014 update. The regulations do not say that the water needs supervision, only the kids. :confused:

The update says:
It is the responsibility of the licensee to ensure the inaccessibility of pools, including swimming
pools (in ground and above ground), fixed in place wading pools, hot tubs, spas, fish ponds or similar bodies of water, through a pool cover or by surrounding the pool with a fence.
NOTE:
Child Care Center fencing requirements are not required for inflatable or portable wading pools with sides low enough for children to step out unassisted; however, these pools should be emptied after each use.
Original regulation is similar, but outlines fence height and locking mechanism requirements.

In the transcript of the training licensing gives, the trainer says only that the wading pool should be filled "immediately prior to use." If it was filled, they got dressed, and then went back outside to use it, it would still be difficult to argue that the OP wasn't following the spirit of the guidelines.

* CDSS training: https://ccld.childcarevideos.org/chi...re/transcript/

In any case, per regs, the children were well supervised and the pool was behind a locked door. I would appeal that citation.

its written so horribly that we could argue it all day long.....gosh they need to tighten things up don't they....

I would fight it too.....I hope you win...****s when you are doing everything right and they try to read between the lines.....that shouldn't be possible.