Smoking Policy and References

[Thriftylady]

Pretty sure they can't get that picky when not everyone is trustworthy or honest. Not to mention the hundreds of different ways a simple rule and be interpreted. kwim?

What does "Where the kids don't play" mean?

It means something different for everyone so I am sure the rule simply had to be a general blanket rule...one size fits all.

As for the CDL rule not being fair in the personal vehicle...well my dad was a CDL holder his whole life and he took that "privilege" very seriously. If someone "pushed" the legal limit simply because they were in their personal vehicle...well that says a lot about their personal integrity and I wouldn't want someone on the road with a multi-ton vehicle that didn't take the privilege seriously.

With every privilege comes a responsibility.

My bff's dad is a pilot. He can not drink within 24-48 hours prior to flying.

There are many professions that have off-duty laws/rules or policies that employees must follow. Again, no one forced anyone to take those types of jobs but if you do, then you must abide by those laws.

I just don't think an employer should have that much control over you. I mean would we tell a doctor or nurse that they couldn't work if they had a health issue? What if they were over or under weight? Would we tell a teacher they couldn't teach if they took extra classes while teaching and failed one? Would we tell a police officer if they ever got a ticket they would be fired? Where does it end?

[Blackcat31]

I just don't think an employer should have that much control over you. I mean would we tell a doctor or nurse that they couldn't work if they had a health issue? What if they were over or under weight? Would we tell a teacher they couldn't teach if they took extra classes while teaching and failed one? Would we tell a police officer if they ever got a ticket they would be fired? Where does it end?

How do any of those things effect the public?

The other rules have a direct impact on the public or the clients served.

If my Dr is overweight he can still provide medical attention.

If my pilot is hung over and/or possibly over the legal limit after a night of drinking, I am sure my flight would be a bit scary...

If my teacher failed a class, it would have no impact on the things she did pass and is teaching her students.

If a daycare provider allowed her weekend guests to smoke on daycare property, the children that attended the following week would be exposed to allergens and possibly second/third hand smoke as well as maybe having access to cigarette butts that were discarded.

MANY people have lost their jobs over choices they made on their personal time....

Where do we draw the line? By giving people choices.

You get to choose what profession you go into and with that choice comes guidelines, rules, rights and privileges.

If you don't agree with them, you still get a choice.
Abide by the rules, lobby to change the rules, don't go into that profession or even choose to go into that profession and disregard the rules.

No matter what choice you make, there are consequences.

It's kind of the way life works.

[Thriftylady]

At some point, it is to much big brother. A small group of people with to much power telling the rest of us what to do. How does a doctor who smokes tell a patient to quit? Way back when I used to smoke my doctor would smoke in his office with the door open where I could see, and told me to quit. Yeah okay! How does someone smoking outside in a yard when daycare kids are not there harm the children? It doesn't! How does a truck driver being at the regular legal limit in his own personal vehicle put anyone else at more harm than if you or I did it? It doesn't. Now DH and I don't smoke or drink anymore so it doesn't really affect us, but it is the principal of to much big brother that bothers me.

[Blackcat31]

At some point, it is to much big brother. A small group of people with to much power telling the rest of us what to do. How does a doctor who smokes tell a patient to quit? Way back when I used to smoke my doctor would smoke in his office with the door open where I could see, and told me to quit. Yeah okay! How does someone smoking outside in a yard when daycare kids are not there harm the children? It doesn't! How does a truck driver being at the regular legal limit in his own personal vehicle put anyone else at more harm than if you or I did it? It doesn't. Now DH and I don't smoke or drink anymore so it doesn't really affect us, but it is the principal of to much big brother that bothers me.

really?

I suggest you do some research.

I am out.

I recognize, understand and accept that I have choices.

I CHOOSE not to complain about it and do one of two things;

Accept and live by the rules I am given or I lobby/fight to change them.

If you can think of another PRODUCTIVE solution, I'll gladly continue this conversation but until then, big brother doesn't really care if it bothers you or not.

[MarinaVanessa]

I'm in CA and although currently the regulation is that no smoking on the premises or within a certain number of feet from doors and windows during daycare hours there are laws that are in the process of being passes that would make it illegal to smoke at any family child care home at any time whether or not there are daycare kids present and whether or not it's during daycare hours or when it's closed.

I for one think it's a great idea, but that's just mu opinion and I'm not a smoker and neither is anyone in my family or my circle of friends. Not close ones anyway. Other than aunt that lives a few hours away and my dad that lives in a nother country no one that comes over smokes ... well maybe the occasional client but that's rare.

In any case what it's trying to prevent is the impact of 2nd hand smoke on others ... mainly children here since it's family child care. It is believed that 2nd and even 3rd hand smoke is more dangerous than 1st hand smoking so that's why the strict regulations when it comes to kids.

As far as the references go ... that's a bit stringent but unfortunately it is what it is with that agency so either just do it or sign on with a different agency. I think they're probably trying to avoid referrals of people that are "bad" or just fibbing on their applications.

[Thriftylady]

I'm in CA and although currently the regulation is that no smoking on the premises or within a certain number of feet from doors and windows during daycare hours there are laws that are in the process of being passes that would make it illegal to smoke at any family child care home at any time whether or not there are daycare kids present and whether or not it's during daycare hours or when it's closed.

I for one think it's a great idea, but that's just mu opinion and I'm not a smoker and neither is anyone in my family or my circle of friends. Not close ones anyway. Other than aunt that lives a few hours away and my dad that lives in a nother country no one that comes over smokes ... well maybe the occasional client but that's rare.

In any case what it's trying to prevent is the impact of 2nd hand smoke on others ... mainly children here since it's family child care. It is believed that 2nd and even 3rd hand smoke is more dangerous than 1st hand smoking so that's why the strict regulations when it comes to kids.

As far as the references go ... that's a bit stringent but unfortunately it is what it is with that agency so either just do it or sign on with a different agency. I think they're probably trying to avoid referrals of people that are "bad" or just fibbing on their applications.

Like I said, we haven't smoked in years. But I still fail to see how smoking OUTSIDE when the kids are not on the property exposes them to second hand smoke. They are not there when daycare is closed. Now smoking in the daycare home even when closed, I get that the smoke lingers and is still there the next day. But OUTSIDE when kids are NOT there, no exposure.

[Blackcat31]

http://www.no-smoke.org/learnmore.php?id=669

"The home, the car, and children’s outdoor play areas are 3 primary sources of involuntary smoke exposure for children (8)."~http://www.cdc.gov/pcd/issues/2015/14_0553.htm

http://www.no-smoke.org/learnmore.php?id=671

https://www2.aap.org/richmondcenter/pdfs/thirdhand_smoke_exposure_another_threat_to_children.pdf

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-is-third-hand-smoke/

[LysesKids]

Like I said, we haven't smoked in years. But I still fail to see how smoking OUTSIDE when the kids are not on the property exposes them to second hand smoke. They are not there when daycare is closed. Now smoking in the daycare home even when closed, I get that the smoke lingers and is still there the next day. But OUTSIDE when kids are NOT there, no exposure.

And I am right there with you... I am an ex smoker & allergic too; what happens off hrs when kids are not present over reaches because even I have friends that visit & smoke outside; Oh yeah, my neighborhood just banned fire pits (3 months ago they banned wading pools & any outdoor play sets including swings); can we say sell & move? And yes, I was just told about the fire pits... what's next? BBQ grills that are charcoal?

[Chickadee-Tree]

My family and I discussed it all weekend and I'm not going to work through that agency (it's Wee Watch, btw). It's just too intrusive.

Good decision, in my opinion!
I went through all the research about the agencies because I really wanted to be licensed when I opened my home daycare. After looking through EVERY single option available to me, I decided to be an unlicensed daycare. I'm in Simcoe County (Barrie) and there are only a couple of agencies that I know of that operate in my area, Wee Watch and Simcare. The other alternative was to get licensed by the County, but all kids through their program are subsidized (you can however, take other kids too! But they ask you to take the subsidized families "whenever possible").
I finally decided to just be unlicensed-- SO MANY home daycares here are, it's honestly not even a 'bad thing' in the eyes of clients.
I provide my families with Criminal Record Checks for both adults in my house, my First Aid/CPR certification, references, and I'm an ECE.
I have written policies and procedures, emergency/evacuation plans, cleaning/disinfection schedules...you name it. My daycare exceeds the parents' expectations, and I'm sure it would meet the requirements of most agencies (except maybe those stupid policies that lack all common sense, like washing your hands 18 times per diaper change).
My contract/handbook is so thorough, I don't leave any room for doubt, and my families are more than happy to enroll.

In my opinion, the only thing a license would give me is a big, fat, headache...
(NOTE TO THOSE OUTSIDE OF ONTARIO-- a "licensing agency" is the ONLY way to get licensed in the province of Ontario)
...working via a licensing agency means that:
-you don't decide your rates/fees, you don't collect payments
-you get a paycheck, at the agencies' weekly salary (I know many families who were at agency-licensed daycares, only to have it suddenly close down because the provider wasn't making a living wage)
-you have to deal with this agency's "home visitor" coming unannounced every month, who is an ECE hired by the agency. They don't have to have any other qualifications, they are not linked to any government office or anything... This bothers me because they have a lot of power over you, and your home, and family! All it takes is one person on a power-trip to make your life miserable. If she doesn't like your setup, your policies (or do they set all the policies?!), your menu, or whatever else it may be, she has the power to make you run in circles making changes to your entire business.
I know a lot of people deal with this, and I would too, if it was required for me to operate-- It just bothers me that this person isn't an inspector from any legitimate ministry, etc...just an ECE working for a for-profit company. And after 10 years working in centres, I sadly know a lot of terrible ECEs (but a lot of great ones, too)
I know, I know...Some home visitors are great, I'm sure, and some agencies are probably great, too! I just didn't want to risk my livelihood on it, especially since I've heard less than encouraging things about agencies.

I guess for many people, the agency thing can be great; apparently they help with your startup costs, and sometimes help you with getting some equipment, and the government sometimes gives random childcare worker wage enhancement funding. But for me, it just wasn't enough of a benefit to give up SO MUCH control over my business!

Good luck with your decisions about agencies, I hope it works out great for you, whichever way you decide to go!

[debbiedoeszip]

Good decision, in my opinion!
I went through all the research about the agencies because I really wanted to be licensed when I opened my home daycare. After looking through EVERY single option available to me, I decided to be an unlicensed daycare. I'm in Simcoe County (Barrie) and there are only a couple of agencies that I know of that operate in my area, Wee Watch and Simcare. The other alternative was to get licensed by the County, but all kids through their program are subsidized (you can however, take other kids too! But they ask you to take the subsidized families "whenever possible").
I finally decided to just be unlicensed-- SO MANY home daycares here are, it's honestly not even a 'bad thing' in the eyes of clients.
I provide my families with Criminal Record Checks for both adults in my house, my First Aid/CPR certification, references, and I'm an ECE.
I have written policies and procedures, emergency/evacuation plans, cleaning/disinfection schedules...you name it. My daycare exceeds the parents' expectations, and I'm sure it would meet the requirements of most agencies (except maybe those stupid policies that lack all common sense, like washing your hands 18 times per diaper change).
My contract/handbook is so thorough, I don't leave any room for doubt, and my families are more than happy to enroll.

In my opinion, the only thing a license would give me is a big, fat, headache...
(NOTE TO THOSE OUTSIDE OF ONTARIO-- a "licensing agency" is the ONLY way to get licensed in the province of Ontario)
...working via a licensing agency means that:
-you don't decide your rates/fees, you don't collect payments
-you get a paycheck, at the agencies' weekly salary (I know many families who were at agency-licensed daycares, only to have it suddenly close down because the provider wasn't making a living wage)
-you have to deal with this agency's "home visitor" coming unannounced every month, who is an ECE hired by the agency. They don't have to have any other qualifications, they are not linked to any government office or anything... This bothers me because they have a lot of power over you, and your home, and family! All it takes is one person on a power-trip to make your life miserable. If she doesn't like your setup, your policies (or do they set all the policies?!), your menu, or whatever else it may be, she has the power to make you run in circles making changes to your entire business.
I know a lot of people deal with this, and I would too, if it was required for me to operate-- It just bothers me that this person isn't an inspector from any legitimate ministry, etc...just an ECE working for a for-profit company. And after 10 years working in centres, I sadly know a lot of terrible ECEs (but a lot of great ones, too)
I know, I know...Some home visitors are great, I'm sure, and some agencies are probably great, too! I just didn't want to risk my livelihood on it, especially since I've heard less than encouraging things about agencies.

I guess for many people, the agency thing can be great; apparently they help with your startup costs, and sometimes help you with getting some equipment, and the government sometimes gives random childcare worker wage enhancement funding. But for me, it just wasn't enough of a benefit to give up SO MUCH control over my business!

Good luck with your decisions about agencies, I hope it works out great for you, whichever way you decide to go!

I am in agreement with all of your objections. The agency lady and I seemed to be on the same page wrt activities and menus, but what if we weren't? I want this to be MY business and I want to have a lot of autonomy. I've spent years planning and researching, and I continue to research early childhood education and childcare practices searching for new ideas that appeal to me. I don't want to be told, for example, that a peace table or a mud kitchen or curry for lunch are unacceptable and that I cannot go ahead with them.

As for the lying about smoking (other posters have mentioned), I could easily agree to no smoking on the premises, ever, at any time, and still be lying my face off. They either trust me, or they don't.

There will be no smoking (cigarettes) on the premises during daycare hours. I may allow my mom to vape (e-cig; no smoke, only water vapor) on the front porch during daycare hours though. We have a large town property (not acreage, but large for an in-town home) and if she is on the front porch she would be far enough away from playing children (backyard) that it's reasonable to assume that the vapor will not reach the children until it has dissipated to almost nothing.

[Annalee]

Like I said, we haven't smoked in years. But I still fail to see how smoking OUTSIDE when the kids are not on the property exposes them to second hand smoke. They are not there when daycare is closed. Now smoking in the daycare home even when closed, I get that the smoke lingers and is still there the next day. But OUTSIDE when kids are NOT there, no exposure.

I disagree with this and see it in kids all the time...got one with a hacking cough that says she is NEVER around smoke and all smoking is done outside at the barn away from the home....yeah right, the kid can't breath.....smoke pollutes EVERYTHING! Even the doctor told her there was nothing he could do for the child and they needed to stop smoking anywhere on the premises.

[Thriftylady]

I disagree with this and see it in kids all the time...got one with a hacking cough that says she is NEVER around smoke and all smoking is done outside at the barn away from the home....yeah right, the kid can't breath.....smoke pollutes EVERYTHING! Even the doctor told her there was nothing he could do for the child and they needed to stop smoking anywhere on the premises.

Well I find it hard to believe in that case that they are not smoking near the child.

[debbiedoeszip]

I disagree with this and see it in kids all the time...got one with a hacking cough that says she is NEVER around smoke and all smoking is done outside at the barn away from the home....yeah right, the kid can't breath.....smoke pollutes EVERYTHING! Even the doctor told her there was nothing he could do for the child and they needed to stop smoking anywhere on the premises.

What if one or all of my next door neighbours smokes outside in their yard (on the other side of the fence)? Should a provider close their daycare under those circumstances? Where is the line drawn?

[Thriftylady]

What if one or all of my next door neighbours smokes outside in their yard (on the other side of the fence)? Should a provider close their daycare under those circumstances? Where is the line drawn?

I tend to agree. That is my issue, where do we draw lines, and private property is private property. Are you supposed to go tell the neighbors they can't smoke on their property?

[Annalee]

What if one or all of my next door neighbours smokes outside in their yard (on the other side of the fence)? Should a provider close their daycare under those circumstances? Where is the line drawn?

All I know is there are very few places that allow smoking on the premises around here so that tells me being around smoke in any kind of way causes negative affects. ??