Help Resolving Issue with Daycare

[kiteguy112]

Everyone, I need some help.

Recently My girlfriend and I had a child, before she was 6 weeks my girlfriend got an amazing job offer, causing us to find childcare as fast as possible for both our newborn and our 1 1/2 year old before we were prepared. We looked around but wasn't having much luck. We found a place and they had a spot that was not going to be available until June 27th and said we needed to come down if we wanted the spot as it wouldn't last long. We were given a quick tour and told to pay the first weeks tuition I wrote a check for that and what I was told was an annual supply fee of $150 that wasn't due until they started but I went ahead and wrote a check for everything totaling $505. We weren't given a tuition contract and didn't sign anything. Their hours were not posted and it's my fault I didn't think to ask as any day care I've contacted has been 6-6. When asked we found out that their hours are 7:30-5:30 and close early on Fridays at 5. This wasn't going to work for us long term but we had no other choice as every other daycare was full until August or September.

By surprise the daycare around the corner called me late Friday the 24th and said they could start Monday, and had regular 6-6 hours. I immediately called the other daycare to inform them that they would not be showing up. I said I was sorry and asked how much would be the fee for my children not showing up. They said the first weeks tuition was non-refundable. I then said well I'll bring my kids for the week and then start them at the other daycare. They said I couldn't as they required 2 weeks notice before removing a child. I asked where was this written and they said it was policy. They said I should talk with the owner on Monday.

Talked to the daycare on Monday and they said the first weeks tuition was non refundable. I asked to see the policy in writing and they could not produce one. I asked for my paperwork with my signature in case in my rush I had signed it and not known but they had nothing on my children. The owner said she was sure someone told me. I mentioned that she wasn't there during my walk-thru. I asked about the $150 supply fee, which I was told I didn't have to pay until I dropped them off that Monday. She said that was now part of the non refundable deposit. I asked about the policy again and her exact words were, "It's your word against mine." I offered to pay half the weeks tuition for each child as a holding fee which was $180 and she refused.

I'm not sure what to do. $500 is money that right now I can't just let go.

Since this she has had a lawyer contact me. His children attend her daycare. There has been some negotiations back and for but for any amount of refund they want me to sign a non-disclosure agreement. I think that it is very excessive and I am not comfortable signing a legal document for what may amount to a partial refund.

Anyone know of anything I can do. I would rather this be dealt with amicably but not sure how.

[Blackcat31]

Everyone, I need some help.

Recently My girlfriend and I had a child, before she was 6 weeks my girlfriend got an amazing job offer, causing us to find childcare as fast as possible for both our newborn and our 1 1/2 year old before we were prepared. We looked around but wasn't having much luck. We found a place and they had a spot that was not going to be available until June 27th and said we needed to come down if we wanted the spot as it wouldn't last long. We were given a quick tour and told to pay the first weeks tuition I wrote a check for that and what I was told was an annual supply fee of $150 that wasn't due until they started but I went ahead and wrote a check for everything totaling $505. We weren't given a tuition contract and didn't sign anything. Their hours were not posted and it's my fault I didn't think to ask as any day care I've contacted has been 6-6. When asked we found out that their hours are 7:30-5:30 and close early on Fridays at 5. This wasn't going to work for us long term but we had no other choice as every other daycare was full until August or September.

By surprise the daycare around the corner called me late Friday the 24th and said they could start Monday, and had regular 6-6 hours. I immediately called the other daycare to inform them that they would not be showing up. I said I was sorry and asked how much would be the fee for my children not showing up. They said the first weeks tuition was non-refundable. I then said well I'll bring my kids for the week and then start them at the other daycare. They said I couldn't as they required 2 weeks notice before removing a child. I asked where was this written and they said it was policy. They said I should talk with the owner on Monday.

Talked to the daycare on Monday and they said the first weeks tuition was non refundable. I asked to see the policy in writing and they could not produce one. I asked for my paperwork with my signature in case in my rush I had signed it and not known but they had nothing on my children. The owner said she was sure someone told me. I mentioned that she wasn't there during my walk-thru. I asked about the $150 supply fee, which I was told I didn't have to pay until I dropped them off that Monday. She said that was now part of the non refundable deposit. I asked about the policy again and her exact words were, "It's your word against mine." I offered to pay half the weeks tuition for each child as a holding fee which was $180 and she refused.

I'm not sure what to do. $500 is money that right now I can't just let go.

Since this she has had a lawyer contact me. His children attend her daycare. There has been some negotiations back and for but for any amount of refund they want me to sign a non-disclosure agreement. I think that it is very excessive and I am not comfortable signing a legal document for what may amount to a partial refund.

Anyone know of anything I can do. I would rather this be dealt with amicably but not sure how.

I'll save you the lecture on being in a hurry is no excuse and to always get everything in writing BEFORE you pay as I am going to venture to say that you already know this...


However moving forward, I would STOP talking to her "lawyer" client as that is less than acceptable...

I would write a letter stating you want a refund for the supplies fee. Send it certified. Tell them you want the refund within X number of days. If they do not refund the supply fee amount, then file with small claims court for that amount. You are NOT entitled to the first weeks tuition back.

The child care MUST prove that what they are saying is true. YOU have the cancelled check to PROVE you paid.

I also assume since this is just your side of the story that there may be details that have been left out as there IS 3 sides to every story but the above advice is as far as I am willing to go because nothing bothers me more than a parent (or ANY consumer) that just has to have NOW (for whatever reason) and then complains when it doesn't work out or something changes.

I think if you do lose out the entire amount, it's an expensive lesson that proves that YOUR failure to plan shouldn't be someone else's crisis.

I understand you needed to secure child care quickly but this is your child we are talking about....I don't take placing my child ANYWHERE lightly and would've done the homework before hastily paying money to anyone.

[Thriftylady]

Well you made a huge mistake by paying any money without a signed agreement. All fees at my daycare are non-refundable. But I write that on every receipt, it is in the contract that is signed before money changes hands, it is in the handbook that parents get at interview and I go over it with them and send them home to read it fully on their own time before coming back to do a contract.

All that being said, if nothing is signed you have two choices. You can agree to a settlement, OR you can take them to small claims court and take your chances there. I am not sure how that would go with no paperwork, I guess it could easily go either way. If there was paperwork, as long as the agreement was a legal one, it would go the way of the paperwork.

This is a hard and expensive lesson I know. But NEVER choose a daycare out of desperation. When we do things out of desperation, very often we find things don't work out how we would like. It really doesn't matter what that decision was. Secondly, don't hand money over until after you have a signed contract and preferably a handbook. If you had gotten those things first, you would have known for sure the hours of care you could expect.

I am not trying to sound harsh of course, just help you in the future. And I do understand that being a new parent opens a whole new world of experiences we have never had before. I hope the best for you.

[Snowmom]

Ditto to all of the above.

By exchanging money (consideration), you agreed for them to provide services. Just because you change your mind about receiving the services, doesn't mean you should automatically be entitled to receive a refund- it was your responsibility to ensure what the refund policy was and have that in writing.

Were you given anything at all in writing (even if you didn't sign it)?
A handbook?
A pamphlet?
A receipt?

[kiteguy112]

Ditto to all of the above.

By exchanging money (consideration), you agreed for them to provide services. Just because you change your mind about receiving the services, doesn't mean you should automatically be entitled to receive a refund- it was your responsibility to ensure what the refund policy was and have that in writing.

Were you given anything at all in writing (even if you didn't sign it)?
A handbook?
A pamphlet?
A receipt?

No mam, no handbook, pamphlet, or receipt.

Let me explain a little bit. This was not a random daycare as I have three friends from our church working there.

Also the reason for the rush was our plan was not to have them in daycare until i returned to work in August as i'm a school teacher. I am teaching summer school but it would have ended around the 6 weeks maternity leave my GF had from work and then I would keep the kids until the closer daycare had its opening. When she was offered a job earning twice as much and asking her to start asap, we had to change plans.

I agree that the rush was the problem, but we were also rushed by the school as they wanted the check that day.

Some of you have said that you always have your parents sign a contract before you take their money. Why is it that you feel all the responsibility then on me and not the daycare for not following what sounds like standard policy for most schools?

When I ran a business we had a no refund only store credit policy, and it was posted on the wall as well as on every receipt because if not if someone disputed a charge the CC bank would refund the customer and take the money back from us because it was our responsibility to inform them of the policy.

I'm coming at this from a business frame of mind, which may be wrong. I did research and saw many daycares charge holding fee's to hold open spots which was half of the weeks tuition which was why I thought that would be a fair fee.

The lawyer did e-mail me a contract after the fact saying this is what I should have signed, but it was out of date. The contract said they provided meals which they do not, so even that contract if presented to us wouldn't have been correct. At the end it also says-

"The following items are required for each new student(s) to be registered at the center:

A signed copy of this contract
A completed enrollment form
$75 annual fee
First week of tuition cost, non refundable if the child does not attend."

Since they didn't have a signed contract was my child actually registered? Is also doesn't say the Supply fee is part of the non-refundable deposit yet they didn't offer to return that either.

Its a weird situation, and one I didn't expect. I appreciate the advice everyone.

[Thriftylady]

No mam, no handbook, pamphlet, or receipt.

Let me explain a little bit. This was not a random daycare as I have three friends from our church working there.

Also the reason for the rush was our plan was not to have them in daycare until i returned to work in August as i'm a school teacher. I am teaching summer school but it would have ended around the 6 weeks maternity leave my GF had from work and then I would keep the kids until the closer daycare had its opening. When she was offered a job earning twice as much and asking her to start asap, we had to change plans.

I agree that the rush was the problem, but we were also rushed by the school as they wanted the check that day.

Some of you have said that you always have your parents sign a contract before you take their money. Why is it that you feel all the responsibility then on me and not the daycare for not following what sounds like standard policy for most schools?

When I ran a business we had a no refund only store credit policy, and it was posted on the wall as well as on every receipt because if not if someone disputed a charge the CC bank would refund the customer and take the money back from us because it was our responsibility to inform them of the policy.

I'm coming at this from a business frame of mind, which may be wrong. I did research and saw many daycares charge holding fee's to hold open spots which was half of the weeks tuition which was why I thought that would be a fair fee.

The lawyer did e-mail me a contract after the fact saying this is what I should have signed, but it was out of date. The contract said they provided meals which they do not, so even that contract if presented to us wouldn't have been correct. At the end it also says-

"The following items are required for each new student(s) to be registered at the center:

A signed copy of this contract
A completed enrollment form
$75 annual fee
First week of tuition cost, non refundable if the child does not attend."

Since they didn't have a signed contract was my child actually registered? Is also doesn't say the Supply fee is part of the non-refundable deposit yet they didn't offer to return that either.

Its a weird situation, and one I didn't expect. I appreciate the advice everyone.

You say you are coming at it from a business frame of mind, which is what you should do as daycare is a business. Yes, at least 50 percent of the responsibility is on you. YOU handed your money over with no contract and didn't even get a receipt. I never hand over money without a receipt! As far as making excuses for the rush, well there is no room for excuses here, I am sure the other side can find some to make as well, would you want to consider their excuses?

Now if you want, you can take all your communication (print it all off) and file a small claims case. You may or may not win, but you take your chances I guess and a chance is better than no chance.

At the end of the day, you did hand over money without getting all the info. I mean ALL parents ask me at first phone call if I can do their hours, there is just no excuse for not making sure they can do the hours you need.

[Blackcat31]

No mam, no handbook, pamphlet, or receipt.

Let me explain a little bit. This was not a random daycare as I have three friends from our church working there.

Also the reason for the rush was our plan was not to have them in daycare until i returned to work in August as i'm a school teacher. I am teaching summer school but it would have ended around the 6 weeks maternity leave my GF had from work and then I would keep the kids until the closer daycare had its opening. When she was offered a job earning twice as much and asking her to start asap, we had to change plans.

I agree that the rush was the problem, but we were also rushed by the school as they wanted the check that day.

Some of you have said that you always have your parents sign a contract before you take their money. Why is it that you feel all the responsibility then on me and not the daycare for not following what sounds like standard policy for most schools?

When I ran a business we had a no refund only store credit policy, and it was posted on the wall as well as on every receipt because if not if someone disputed a charge the CC bank would refund the customer and take the money back from us because it was our responsibility to inform them of the policy.

I'm coming at this from a business frame of mind, which may be wrong. I did research and saw many daycares charge holding fee's to hold open spots which was half of the weeks tuition which was why I thought that would be a fair fee.

The lawyer did e-mail me a contract after the fact saying this is what I should have signed, but it was out of date. The contract said they provided meals which they do not, so even that contract if presented to us wouldn't have been correct. At the end it also says-

"The following items are required for each new student(s) to be registered at the center:

A signed copy of this contract
A completed enrollment form
$75 annual fee
First week of tuition cost, non refundable if the child does not attend."

Since they didn't have a signed contract was my child actually registered? Is also doesn't say the Supply fee is part of the non-refundable deposit yet they didn't offer to return that either.

Its a weird situation, and one I didn't expect. I appreciate the advice everyone.

Like I said, you need to request your supply fee back in writing.

If the center states it's your word against theirs...believe them. THEY must now PROVE their word. If you do not have a signed contract (including if they do not have one signed by you) then THEY bear the burden of proving they do not owe you a refund.

Stop talking to her "lawyer" and discussing who thinks who is right or wrong.

• 1. Request the refund for supply fees in writing.
• 2. Send certified so you have proof of delivery
• 3. File with small claims if they do not refund by X date
• 4. Cease all further contact to and from.
• 5. Bring ANY proof you have in regards to the supply fee being non-refundable. Make sure you state you are perfectly willing to forfeit the first weeks tuition.

The law favors compromise between parties but the law also requires those making the statements to PROVE their claims.

[kiteguy112]

Like I said, you need to request your supply fee back in writing.

If the center states it's your word against theirs...believe them. THEY must now PROVE their word. If you do not have a signed contract (including if they do not have one signed by you) then THEY bear the burden of proving they do not owe you a refund.

Stop talking to her "lawyer" and discussing who thinks who is right or wrong.

• 1. Request the refund for supply fees in writing.
• 2. Send certified so you have proof of delivery
• 3. File with small claims if they do not refund by X date
• 4. Cease all further contact to and from.
• 5. Bring ANY proof you have in regards to the supply fee being non-refundable. Make sure you state you are perfectly willing to forfeit the first weeks tuition.

The law favors compromise between parties but the law also requires those making the statements to PROVE their claims.

Thanks. Working on the letter now.

[MunchkinWrangler]

Usually an exchange of money is an agreement in and of itself. Even without paperwork, signatures, yada, yada, yada.

Even though I believe it was highly irresponsible of the daycare to accept this type of exchange(I personally would never accept any type of payment without a signed agreement and acknowledgement of the services I provide as well as knowing the rules of my home and program), the responsibility does also lie with you. Finding childcare takes careful consideration and nothing makes me more annoyed than parents who lump all providers into a box assuming that we are all the same. Rules, hours, rates...yada, yada, yada.

I'm also curious as to why you know nothing of the program if you toured it. I get that you were in a rush but why would you exchange money without paying attention or asking questions? It's the "throw money at it" mentality of today that really bugs me. I would be very curious to hear the other side.

[kiteguy112]

Usually an exchange of money is an agreement in and of itself. Even without paperwork, signatures, yada, yada, yada.

Even though I believe it was highly irresponsible of the daycare to accept this type of exchange(I personally would never accept any type of payment without a signed agreement and acknowledgement of the services I provide as well as knowing the rules of my home and program), the responsibility does also lie with you. Finding childcare takes careful consideration and nothing makes me more annoyed than parents who lump all providers into a box assuming that we are all the same. Rules, hours, rates...yada, yada, yada.

I'm also curious as to why you know nothing of the program if you toured it. I get that you were in a rush but why would you exchange money without paying attention or asking questions? It's the "throw money at it" mentality of today that really bugs me. I would be very curious to hear the other side.

We did ask questions, what would we need? Are meals provided? Who the teacher would be? What supplies were needed? How do we need to prepare the babies food? What is the policy when they are sick? We did ask a lot of questions. This was about the 6th or 7th place we called because it was not very close to us. Every daycare I had contacted was 6-6 hours. On the website the hours are not listed anywhere (yes I did research) along with any payment or policy information and after the tour they asked for the money it was a question that slipped my mind. The hours are not the reason I pulled them out, as we had made plans to work around them until we found daycare closer to us. The surprise was the daycare that had us waiting until August called and had an opening.

Was not too worried about a receipt because I have the check with what it was for written for on the memo line. We did fill out an enrollment form with basic information.

[Snowmom]

No mam, no handbook, pamphlet, or receipt.

Let me explain a little bit. This was not a random daycare as I have three friends from our church working there.

Also the reason for the rush was our plan was not to have them in daycare until i returned to work in August as i'm a school teacher. I am teaching summer school but it would have ended around the 6 weeks maternity leave my GF had from work and then I would keep the kids until the closer daycare had its opening. When she was offered a job earning twice as much and asking her to start asap, we had to change plans.

I agree that the rush was the problem, but we were also rushed by the school as they wanted the check that day.

Some of you have said that you always have your parents sign a contract before you take their money. Why is it that you feel all the responsibility then on me and not the daycare for not following what sounds like standard policy for most schools?

When I ran a business we had a no refund only store credit policy, and it was posted on the wall as well as on every receipt because if not if someone disputed a charge the CC bank would refund the customer and take the money back from us because it was our responsibility to inform them of the policy.

I'm coming at this from a business frame of mind, which may be wrong. I did research and saw many daycares charge holding fee's to hold open spots which was half of the weeks tuition which was why I thought that would be a fair fee.

The lawyer did e-mail me a contract after the fact saying this is what I should have signed, but it was out of date. The contract said they provided meals which they do not, so even that contract if presented to us wouldn't have been correct. At the end it also says-

"The following items are required for each new student(s) to be registered at the center:

A signed copy of this contract
A completed enrollment form
$75 annual fee
First week of tuition cost, non refundable if the child does not attend."

Since they didn't have a signed contract was my child actually registered? Is also doesn't say the Supply fee is part of the non-refundable deposit yet they didn't offer to return that either.

Its a weird situation, and one I didn't expect. I appreciate the advice everyone.

The reason I ask is because by handing them money, they can argue that you agreed to their terms with an "implied contract", vs and "express contract", which is a written contract.
(Contract: you agreed to services by paying a fee, they agreed to services and holding the position by accepting the fee).
The lawyer forwarding you his contract would prove what their normal policies are (implied contract). An implied contract is harder to prove, which I'm guessing is why they have him involved. Now, if that contract didn't outline that the fees and tuition were non-refundable, I would keep that contract and use that as to what your options are if you decide to go to court.

Personally, I would do as Blackcat suggests and state what you want in writing with a specified timeframe and what steps you'll take after that and cease communication from there.

As far as why we think the responsibility relies on you (as you stated above): because it's your money. You are accountable for your money.
We (providers) draw up contracts to protect ourselves, just as the customers should review contracts to protect themselves. The fact that this provider/center didn't have you sign one or even a receipt that states non-refunable is probably one mistake that they will never make again...and you as well.

[kiteguy112]

The reason I ask is because by handing them money, they can argue that you agreed to their terms with an "implied contract", vs and "express contract", which is a written contract.
(Contract: you agreed to services by paying a fee, they agreed to services and holding the position by accepting the fee).
The lawyer forwarding you his contract would prove what their normal policies are (implied contract). An implied contract is harder to prove, which I'm guessing is why they have him involved. Now, if that contract didn't outline that the fees and tuition were non-refundable, I would keep that contract and use that as to what your options are if you decide to go to court.

Personally, I would do as Blackcat suggests and state what you want in writing with a specified timeframe and what steps you'll take after that and cease communication from there.

As far as why we think the responsibility relies on you (as you stated above): because it's your money. You are accountable for your money.
We (providers) draw up contracts to protect ourselves, just as the customers should review contracts to protect themselves. The fact that this provider/center didn't have you sign one or even a receipt that states non-refunable is probably one mistake that they will never make again...and you as well.

Definitely not. Thanks

[Leigh]

Don't take this as derogatory, I'm just giving MY opinion on the matter:

All I can say is that I wouldn't refund, either. They held a spot for you, and you cancelled on them, costing them more than the $500-ish that you paid them. This would be like signing a $1000 a month lease on a home, then deciding not to move in. You still owe for what you signed for. I do KNOW that you didn't sign a written contract and didn't utilize their services at all, however, when looking at it from a moral standpoint, I feel that you owe them at least what you paid, due to your agreement to use their services. 6-6 isn't normal daycare hours by any means in my area. 7:30-5:15 is standard here. It was on you to ask about hours, for sure.

I'm not talking legal anything here, just moral. Your exchange of payment does constitute an intention to utilize services. It's reasonable to assume that you planned to use those services long term. I don't think you'd have been doing your children any favors by sending them to a new daycare for one week and then moving them, and I don't, personally, find it unreasonable for the childcare to require 2 weeks' fees to quit.

IMO, you owe them for 2 weeks. I feel that they should credit you the supply fee toward that 2 weeks (though they likely already purchased supplies for your kids). I'd have had you leave a payment of THREE weeks' tuition (first and final two), along with paying full tuition for each week after the first, regardless of attendance, so I think you're getting off pretty good with the childcare you first contracted with.

I understand that you're frustrated with the situation, and that's perfectly OK. However, imagine showing up for teaching school and finding out that they'd changed their minds about having you teach. Would you feel entitled to some sort of severance for having your agreement broken without notice? How would you feel about essentially being fired before starting your school year?

Legally, I can't say what would happen in court. I'm just saying that I feel from a moral standpoint, you owe them the courtesy of 2 weeks tuition (very standard notice period) for the spaces you contracted for.

[kiteguy112]

Don't take this as derogatory, I'm just giving MY opinion on the matter:

All I can say is that I wouldn't refund, either. They held a spot for you, and you cancelled on them, costing them more than the $500-ish that you paid them. This would be like signing a $1000 a month lease on a home, then deciding not to move in. You still owe for what you signed for. I do KNOW that you didn't sign a written contract and didn't utilize their services at all, however, when looking at it from a moral standpoint, I feel that you owe them at least what you paid, due to your agreement to use their services. 6-6 isn't normal daycare hours by any means in my area. 7:30-5:15 is standard here. It was on you to ask about hours, for sure.

I'm not talking legal anything here, just moral. Your exchange of payment does constitute an intention to utilize services. It's reasonable to assume that you planned to use those services long term. I don't think you'd have been doing your children any favors by sending them to a new daycare for one week and then moving them, and I don't, personally, find it unreasonable for the childcare to require 2 weeks' fees to quit.

IMO, you owe them for 2 weeks. I feel that they should credit you the supply fee toward that 2 weeks (though they likely already purchased supplies for your kids). I'd have had you leave a payment of THREE weeks' tuition (first and final two), along with paying full tuition for each week after the first, regardless of attendance, so I think you're getting off pretty good with the childcare you first contracted with.

I understand that you're frustrated with the situation, and that's perfectly OK. However, imagine showing up for teaching school and finding out that they'd changed their minds about having you teach. Would you feel entitled to some sort of severance for having your agreement broken without notice? How would you feel about essentially being fired before starting your school year?

Legally, I can't say what would happen in court. I'm just saying that I feel from a moral standpoint, you owe them the courtesy of 2 weeks tuition (very standard notice period) for the spaces you contracted for.

Oh no I do agree and have never asked for a full refund. But to say it costs them more than $500 for me not showing up just doesn't hold any weight. They were free to fill that spot, probably before the week was out and if they did then they really lost very little. Actually the new Daycare offered to hold the spot for the week at no charge if I did send them there for the week. Now they didn't hold an empty spot, the spot was available on the date in question, and it was really just for My toddler as they had room for the Baby. If it was made clear to me about the refund policy I wouldn't be here right now as I know I would have no dog in the fight.

Looking around I found that a lot of day cares will charge half a weeks tuition to keep a spot empty, so that is what I thought would be fair. $180 for providing no services. This more became an issue when it was the your word against mine and the fact that because I paid the supply fee early that now that was also non-refundable.

I'm following Blackcats advice and see where it goes from there. Thank you.

[Josiegirl]

I agree with you owing them the money for holding a spot for you BUT I also give potential dcfs a contract to sign, handbook to read before both parties agree to it. I feel that dc is highly unprofessional in the way they dealt with rushing you along. Both sides failed in some way. Then to merely give you an out of date copy of a contract, after the fact.....very strange.