Feeling Frustrated

[Unregistered]

I was an early interventionist for years and have some communication tip worksheets that may help. If you pm your email, I will send you the PDFs.

I would not force communication with peers. It's genuinely hard for her and probably makes her uncomfortable. In therapy, first kids practice with adults through play then learn to use them with their peers. And she will need to build up her overall vocabulary before working on pragmatics.

At childcare, she can practice communication through play. You don't want her to shut down with you.

My gut instinct is not to force her. I am glad that was the right thing to do. I do set up small cooperative games for her with peers like passing a ball back and forth so there is some shared play but little communication. Her vocabulary is great and she is very intelligent. I also feel that she wants to interact with others but has no idea how to do it. She will sometimes watch them from far away but her only way to communicate is to go up and name an object and she will only do this with the older kids, never kids her age.

I will PM you about those sheets. I appreciate all of your help as I was really floundering. I am already feeling better about the whole situation. I think the sheer uncertainty of what to do to help was weighing heavily on me. THANK YOU!!

[Miss A]

Thanks! I am already doing some of these things. She has a tendency to repeat phrases so if I say "wow it's fast" she will begin saying it throughout the day for every car. I have also responded with the wrong answer and she will simply take on that answer. Once I called a toy fish a mailbox and she simply accepted it and called it a mailbox the rest of the day. If I say "I don't know" she will simply tell me what it is.

Any more advice about her pragmatic language? Or does she need a therapist for that? Whenever I try and get her to talk to other children she lowers her eyes and will not do it. Her mom forces her to do it and she complies for mom (mom will make her look into faces and say "bye" or "thank you") but it is always awkward and forced. Is this just the way it will be for her? Should I also get her to do it even if I feel it's making her uncomfortable? Today I could not get her to ask for a balloon. No matter how many times I asked her to ask for it she just wouldn't. I simply said "what is it you want?" "Do you want the balloon?" She also will not ask for help and I'm not sure how to encourage her in this way. She gets extremely shy/withdrawn when I am speaking directly to her or when I am requesting her to say something...which makes me back off.

In response to the bolded text, Can you elaborate on the phrase she is repeating? Try to build on it. WHen she shows you her car and says "Wow it is fast!", try adding more to her sentence, such as it's so fast it could be a race car! Or, try to start a thought provoking conversation, by asking her open ended questions, such as "Where is your fast car driving to?"

The same can be said for her responding by telling you what an item is over and over. Try to elaborate on your answer, and to relate the answers back to ways she can understand and see the world. If she is asking about every day objects, such as a mailbox, you can respond by saying "This is a mailbox. When the mail man comes, he puts our letters in the mailbox." It is a break from the mundane response you are tired of giving, and it helps her to build an understanding of how her world works.

In response to the second paragraph of your post, I would suggest simple conversation modeling. If another child approaches and she becomes uncomfortable, help her to converse with the other child by modeling the conversation. It will be a slow start, with you doing most of the talking. The hope is that as she progresses and begins to have a better definition of her world, and also develops a better sense of self, she will be equipped with the skill she needs.

[sharlan]

A bit off topic - forcing a child to look at someone's eyes can be painful for them.

My dd taught my grandson to look at people's noses. People think he's looking them in the eyes, which he isn't and can't do. Even the psychiatrist that he saw last month didn't realize it until my dd pointed it out to her.

[Blackcat31]

Thanks! I am already doing some of these things. She has a tendency to repeat phrases so if I say "wow it's fast" she will begin saying it throughout the day for every car. I have also responded with the wrong answer and she will simply take on that answer. Once I called a toy fish a mailbox and she simply accepted it and called it a mailbox the rest of the day. If I say "I don't know" she will simply tell me what it is.

Aspie kids take every thing literal so when you said the fish was a mailbox, she simply took that at face value.

Even if she knew you were incorrect, it's not within her scope of abilities to communicate that you were incorrect.

Back and forth conversation is difficult and understanding the tone in which others speak is often times not heard at all. They are not able to take social or facial cues as to what you mean....are you kidding? are you serious? are you mad? are you happy? Those things are not recognized in her method of comprehension.

The constant repeating is a method of remembering and categorizing. When we take in new information our brains process what we see, hear and feel and then connects that information to any related information we may already have and then files it away in our memory.
We retrieve that information later through cues that ignite our brains filing system to bring up the info....the smell, the sound the feel....those are all cues or clues to what info our brains needs to bring to the forefront.
Aspie's do not work that way. Information is gathered and stored in their brains in (some with great detail and others haphazardly...depending on the person). When they want to bring information to the forefront their brains have trouble making the connection or relationship to old information stored so even if it's in there, the WAY it's stored and retrieved is what makes their social skills seem awkward and uncomfortable. For them and for others.

Any more advice about her pragmatic language? Or does she need a therapist for that? Whenever I try and get her to talk to other children she lowers her eyes and will not do it. Her mom forces her to do it and she complies for mom (mom will make her look into faces and say "bye" or "thank you") but it is always awkward and forced. Is this just the way it will be for her? Should I also get her to do it even if I feel it's making her uncomfortable? Today I could not get her to ask for a balloon. No matter how many times I asked her to ask for it she just wouldn't. I simply said "what is it you want?" "Do you want the balloon?" She also will not ask for help and I'm not sure how to encourage her in this way. She gets extremely shy/withdrawn when I am speaking directly to her or when I am requesting her to say something...which makes me back off.

It might make her uncomfortable when you speak directly to her. Sometimes it makes them feel "on the spot" or "pop quizzed" and since they have trouble reading social cues, facial expressions and comprehending tones, that kind of attention can be painful and extremely uncomfortable. It can also simply be beyond her abilities to understand conversation (that its a two way thing) or that you are talking TO her (she may not automatically grasp that you are expecting something from her in return...a reply, compliance to a request, etc....)
Avoidance of eye contact is a HUGE Asperger sign.

Mom may very well be telling the truth when she says it's not like that at home. Home is home. Most parents create a world at home to meet the child's needs and not one that encourages or promotes change and growth. If she cant do X, then mom or dad more or likely does it for her or speaks for her. This is very common in kids with ASP and ADD......parents dont "see" it at home because they create an environment that is easily navigated for the child. How many times have you heard a parent say "Oh my child can't do X" when you know they can. It's human nature to not want to see your off spring struggle so we make sure to not let that happen at home. See where I am going with this?

Mom may also be in denial because she may truthfully not see it at all. I just figured my kid was a little "different" or "unique"....it never occurred to me that the shy, awkward behaviors were anything to be concerned about. I didn't "see" my child within the context of his peers. I didn't actually ever observe his social skills because I was never in the classroom or at daycare with him and because kids always act different when their parent is present so I doubt his behavior would have been true to him.

I think for parents acknowledging that something is wrong or "off" with their child is harder than actually dealing with it. Our kids are perfect in our eyes.

[Unregistered]

This is all great info and Blackcat thanks for sharing your experience. The explanation about what it can be like for a parent and what might be going on at home is very eye opening and explains a lot for me. Mom definitely directs her a lot and does a lot for her. When I asked mom if she asks for help at home mom wasn't sure which indicates that there is little opportunity to even ask for help. The only thing I really know about Aspbergers is what I am reading and it is just so much different than being with that person as you all know. Every child is unique. This particular child makes great eye contact which is what is/was throwing mom for a loop I think. But she has issues making eye contact with other kids, although it is improving. I am also noticing "odd" eye contact. Like staring too intently or for too long which is also normal for Aspies I am learning. Sometimes she gets a 'dazed' look on her face.

a.lenz.girl thanks for the tips. I already do a lot of this so I'm just happy that what I am doing is the right thing. Since I am not seeing any improvements I started to assume what I was doing was wrong so it's good to know it's helping in some way.

Some other behaviors that perhaps you can speak to. Over the top excitement on occasion with lots of jumping and stomping and wagging of hands. She will also wag her finger in front of her eyes and say "sticky finger" but only does this when very stressed. This is stimming I assume? I just allow her to do this of course.

[Angelsj]

I appreciate the honest replies. I KNOW I have to terminate but I don't know why I cannot handle this for just 2 days. I think it is because of moms denial and the fact that I do not have a clear plan on HOW to deal with this. For example what do I do when she asks me the same question 50X? Do I just answer it? is that a realistic expectation for anyone? I have worked with ASD children in the past but always with a clear plan on what to work on and I have only worked with lower functioning children. I wish I could just speed up the diagnosis process so I can get some tools. I never know if anything I am doing is right. When mom talks about her at home it is as if she is a completely normal child.

Blackcat31 perhaps you can help me. What advice can you give as to how to deal with this. I am afraid of terming and having her end up with someone less qualified and possibly abusive. I am her second care provider as the first one termed. Any insight that you can offer as a parent would be wonderful. Right now the mom seems to be in denial about it and tells me things about the child that I find absolutely unbelievable. Is it possible for a child to be completely different at home than at daycare? The mom is also not sure if the child is on the spectrum or not at this point which in and of itself is frustrating.

I am desperately looking for help in how to deal with all of this. I am not just venting. I need help. I don't feel that terming her is the right course of action. She knows me and loves it here, is always excited to see us etc. I think that terming would be the worst idea for her.

This is not something you can learn from people on the internet. This is something for which you need training. If you are committed to her, get the training. Ask your licensor about training classes for kids with ASD. Take CE credits on these kids. Get the training.
Even if she isn't on the spectrum, and from what you are saying, she likely is, the training will help you learn ways to not only cope with her behaviors but also how to help her grow, socially and developmentally.

[Blackcat31]

This particular child makes great eye contact which is what is/was throwing mom for a loop I think. But she has issues making eye contact with other kids, although it is improving. I am also noticing "odd" eye contact. Like staring too intently or for too long which is also normal for Aspies I am learning. Sometimes she gets a 'dazed' look on her face.

That could be for several reasons...
My child was great at memorizing what he was expected to do and then doing. He may not have understood it, just that is was what he should do.

Like the difference between singing the ABC's and "knowing" the ABC's...kwim? Kids can remember things via repetitious actions but there is still no understanding or comprehension. It's basically a performance.

For my child it was very "Rainman"ish....

My child has an above average IQ.
He is extremely intelligent and knowledgeable about things but those things are only those things that interest him. He can tell you to the millimeter the thickness of each layer of the earth but he couldn't remember where he set his English book just hours after using it.

I agree with AngelsJ too..... I would really look into some specialized trainings. I think it would help a lot. I can share my experiences as a parent but like anything everyone's journey is different and although certain disabilities etc have commonalities among those that are inflicted the rest is really individualized.

[Unregistered]

I have actually looked into doing the specialized program. They offer it as a graduate diploma from the college I went to. Unfortunately they require placements and running a daycare is getting in the way. I am thinking about doing it when I stop running the daycare in the next 2 years when my daughter starts school. I may look into completing some courses though.

Blackcat it sounds like your DS is very similar to this child. I also know for sure that she is responding by expectation. For example before I told mom of my suspicions she would never look up when I entered the room. When I completed the ASD questionnaire this was one of the areas I gave a "fail" for. Since that time the mom has clearly started "forcing" her to say hi whenever anyone enters the room. It is even interrupting her play. She will drop everything walk towards you with a big fake smile and say "Hi" repeatedly until you say it back. Even my husband started to notice this.

I just think it is such a shame that this child and family has to wait such a long time to even get services or even a diagnosis. The mom was referred to a play group/drop in service for children diagnosed with ASD but I am not sure what has come of it and it seems like mom doesn't really want t talk about it. When she picks her up at the end of the day she doesn't even ask me how her day was

I think going forward I just need to provide her with a comfortable place to be. I can only do so much myself and supporting her as best I can which I do for all my kids is what i need to focus on. I think understanding her mind a bit more has already helped. We had a great morning playing with blocks and dinosaurs and I felt like I had a bit more knowledge of what to be doing. That is really what I needed and I appreciate all of your input so so much