Do You Think The Parent Should Be Held Responsible Too?

[Unregistered]

I don't believe that her being licensed would have prevented the child's death but it would have held her accountable to keep better ratios. 17 children for a privider is way too many to be looked after properly, especially if swimming.

I think it was sarcastic.

[daycarediva]

A parent leaving a child in illegal unlicensed care, especially when way over ratio, is the same to me as a parent leaving their child with a 7 year old. The parent knowingly let someone who is incapable of properly caring for their child take responsibility.

Yes too bad she wasn't licensed, then surely that child wouldn't have drown.

I understand you intended this as sarcasm, but to a certain extent you're post is accurate.

IF the provider was licensed, she would have had to maintain lower ratios.
IF the provider was licensed, those forced lower ratios would have led to better supervision.
IF this provider was licensed in my state, there are SO MANY hoops to jump through to go to any public pool that she may have opted not to go.

licensing, training, educating- providers and parents, does saves lives.

I am NOT saying you ALWAYS get bad care in an unlicensed home. But I would NEVER leave my child with someone who was knowingly operating an illegal business, was out of ratio for even a legally licensed home, OR took that number of children on field trips. Recipe for disaster.

I am 6:1, and I would NEVER take my kids swimming. EVER. NO WAY. They are 18 m-4 years. It would take ONE minute to lose one of them. That's not a risk I am willing to take.

[Ariana]

I had read an article a while back that said as a society we have come so far with safety that it has removed us from death - meaning we just don't see people die (they do so in hospitals, etc) and kids don't even attend funerals, etc. So when kids die in accidents, we MUST find fault. We MUST hold someone accountable. Someone MUST pay. The thinking is that there is no such thing as a true accident and everything is 100% preventable....

This is so so true! I once had a conversation with a guy who was in advertising and he said the best and fastest way to sell a product is to make it about the safety of children. He said that you could sell ice to a snowman in winter if he thought it would keep his child safe. He mentioned that carseats were the biggest sham. I have noticed this myself, whenever a child dies in a car crash they almost AWAYS blame the parents for not having it installed properly or not done up correctly or some such nonsense. The truth is that a carseat can only go so far to protect your child in an accident.

[daycarediva]

I had read an article a while back that said as a society we have come so far with safety that it has removed us from death - meaning we just don't see people die (they do so in hospitals, etc) and kids don't even attend funerals, etc. So when kids die in accidents, we MUST find fault. We MUST hold someone accountable. Someone MUST pay. The thinking is that there is no such thing as a true accident and everything is 100% preventable.
And of course, when one Monday morning quarterbacks, that is true.
It's led to a litigious society where everyone is afraid to allow anything (but WE don't know nothing about that )

My mothers cousin had 5 children. Her husband had died in a farming accident shortly after the youngest was born. She left them in the care of the eldest (around 16) when she went to work. One summer day, he decided to take the boat out of the dock and bring all of the kids fishing. It capsized and they ALL drowned. It was a horrific tragedy. Fully preventable. She wasn't charged with anything.

I do agree that accidents happen. THIS could have been prevented if she had followed state laws. There's a reason they're in place to begin with.

The separation from death in our society-That's part of the reason we have pets (they die- it's a tough lesson in life, but much easier to manage harder deaths when you understand it)- we bring our kids to wakes/funerals.

[Unregistered]

This is so so true! I once had a conversation with a guy who was in advertising and he said the best and fastest way to sell a product is to make it about the safety of children. He said that you could sell ice to a snowman in winter if he thought it would keep his child safe. He mentioned that carseats were the biggest sham. I have noticed this myself, whenever a child dies in a car crash they almost AWAYS blame the parents for not having it installed properly or not done up correctly or some such nonsense. The truth is that a carseat can only go so far to protect your child in an accident.

Like smart monitor claims etc. If she was licensed, and had less kids that day probably still would have happened. Maybe the mom and dad should be arrested to for not teaching a 5 year old to swim. What about the life guards. Apparently mom did allow it since she was in swim wear, so mom's claim is apparently false. If they are suing you can bet it's to take advantage of a tragedy and win the lottery. So far the parents have gotten 37k from charity. This one of those accidents, and no one should be charged.

The provider needs to do what one did in our city years ago. She hired the best law firm, spent 10 mo in jail until it was over turned. The county prosecutor ended up losing his job, the state bar took away his ability to practice law due to being unethical, dishonest, you name it. The daycare provider then sued for 12 mil.

[daycarediva]

Like smart monitor claims etc. If she was licensed, and had less kids that day probably still would have happened. Maybe the mom and dad should be arrested to for not teaching a 5 year old to swim. What about the life guards. Apparently mom did allow it since she was in swim wear, so mom's claim is apparently false. If they are suing you can bet it's to take advantage of a tragedy and win the lottery. So far the parents have gotten 37k from charity. This one of those accidents, and no one should be charged.

The provider needs to do what one did in our city years ago. She hired the best law firm, spent 10 mo in jail until it was over turned. The county prosecutor ended up losing his job, the state bar took away his ability to practice law due to being unethical, dishonest, you name it. The daycare provider then sued for 12 mil.

WHAT? the parents suing=winning the lottery but the PROVIDER should sue?

I'm making crystal meth. My lab blows up and kills a child in my care. I should spend my time in jail, then sue the state?

What she was doing was ILLEGAL. There is NO WAY she wasn't aware of that fact. When someone dies while in the commission of a crime, it only increases sentencing. She has NO LEG to stand on. she was criminally negligent, at best.

[Little Learners]

Absolutely - Parents, people take advantage of accidents to enrich themselves. Nothing new there.

Being unlicensed doesn't merit those kinds of charges. If you want to assign blame it goes back to the parents, provider, and life guards from the little I have read. Sounds like abuse of power, so something her attorney will look into and for a judge to decide.

[mommyneedsadayoff]

Just a bit more info I found on this situation today. I am watching the child of one of the families who went to this daycare. She said it is the largest daycare in the town and has about 30 kids. The little kids were not taken to the pool, just those that are school age and I guess they go quite often in the summer. The provider had a helper there too, so I am still not sure how many kids total, but it sounds like they were within ratio. The part that is still missing is whether she was licensed or not and how on earth she could operate a center and not be licensed boggles my mind, but probably answers why the city official is also under arrest (looked the other way maybe?). This daycare is actually very close to me. My grandma sold the original owner the land next door so she could expand her outdoor play area. The original owner was also my mom's assistant before she opened her dayacre (my mom had the first big center in town). It is sad all around, but another thing that ****s is there are 30 families who have no childcare now and there are no other options in the town. If I wanted to open a big center, now would be a good time

[Play Care]

My mothers cousin had 5 children. Her husband had died in a farming accident shortly after the youngest was born. She left them in the care of the eldest (around 16) when she went to work. One summer day, he decided to take the boat out of the dock and bring all of the kids fishing. It capsized and they ALL drowned. It was a horrific tragedy. Fully preventable. She wasn't charged with anything.

I do agree that accidents happen. THIS could have been prevented if she had followed state laws. There's a reason they're in place to begin with.

The separation from death in our society-That's part of the reason we have pets (they die- it's a tough lesson in life, but much easier to manage harder deaths when you understand it)- we bring our kids to wakes/funerals.

See, we don't know that. The only thing that stands out is that she may not have been licensed. She had (allegedly) 17 kids with her, but she also had an assistant. Now in our state I can have 5 or 6 FT, depending on ages and 2 SA kids, plus my own SA kids who don't count in my ratio. I only have two SA KIDS of my own, but if I had 3 or 4 kids and they were all SA, plus all the DC kids, I could have 12-13 by myself and I would still be within legal ratios. If I was a group family we could have almost 20 kids out between 2 of us and still be legal.
So I'm not necessarily bothered by the number, though I would never take a group to a pool at all.
The problem with drowning is that it's a silent death, and unless one has been trained, it's actually very hard to spot (there was a video in Facebook where they asked people to "spot" the drowning person and most people got it wrong ) This could have very well happened to a licenesed provider - a busy pool, lots of other(non day care) kids, etc. What I'm wondering is what their policy was when they went to the pool for head counts, breaks, etc.

Frankly I'm flabbergasted that a CENTER, with a large public profile (at least according to the OP) operated without a license. I have no idea how that would even be possible. I can see how an illegal in home could hide it for years, but a large CENTER? There has to be more to that - someone dropped the ball *if* she was truly not licensed. I'm almost wondering if she thought she was licensed because I find it hard to believe someone would be that public and open whilst operating that illegally, KWIM? But I suppose stranger things have happened.

[Unregistered]

According to Velva Community Development Corp. they state on their page that The Kids Quarters is licensed. That's supposedly the one she owned.

That's about all I could find. Definitely more to the story I'm sure, but thanks for the updates. Sure would like to know more on why the other lady was arrested, very sketchy.

[mommyneedsadayoff]

I saw that too, but they are charging her with negligent homicide, neglect of a child, and operating without license. I do not get how one of the main centers in town could not be licensed, unless she didn't take proper steps to renew it? The city official is charged with giving false information to police, being a public servant refusing to perform their duty, tampering and conspiring to tamper with public records.

If the daycare was licensed and within ratio and had permission to go to the pool, which also had lifeguards, can they really charge the provider and continue a wrongful death suit against the city? I mean, whose fault is it? Right now, they are blaming the provider, the city official, and the city itself? What's next? Are the 17 year old life guards also responsible? What about the parent who put their kid in the daycare? It is getting a little crazy, so i wish more facts were available so it may start to make sense.

[Unregistered]

I'm wondering if this other lady was friends with her and they conspired to make her appear to be licensed. What other reason would this other lady have to tamper with those records? That was my impression from the news articles, though info. was sparse on all that. Keep us in the loop if you do find out more.

[Play Care]

If the daycare was licensed and within ratio and had permission to go to the pool, which also had lifeguards, can they really charge the provider and continue a wrongful death suit against the city? I mean, whose fault is it? Right now, they are blaming the provider, the city official, and the city itself? What's next? Are the 17 year old life guards also responsible? What about the parent who put their kid in the daycare? It is getting a little crazy, so i wish more facts were available so it may start to make sense.

This. As someone who had a family member go through very public legal issues a few years ago, I will say that a LOT of misinformation is put out by officials to make it seem as though the person they are targeting is 100% guilty. This way the person, rather than risk going to trial, takes a plea bargain. It makes the DA look good. And there are not as many trial lawyers as one would think - mostly they all want you to take the plea so the can get a fee and go home to their kids at a decent hour.

Threre was just an excellent article/study about how our legal system really isn't working because of the plea bargains, etc.

It's why I never believe anything until I can research ALL sides.

Obviously this will never be an okay situation - a child is dead. But if the provider was licensed, in ratio, actively supervising the kids, had all the i's dotted and t's crossed, etc then I hope she fights like hell.

[mommyneedsadayoff]

According to Velva Community Development Corp. they state on their page that The Kids Quarters is licensed. That's supposedly the one she owned.

That's about all I could find. Definitely more to the story I'm sure, but thanks for the updates. Sure would like to know more on why the other lady was arrested, very sketchy.

I spoke with someone yesterday and she is licensed and has been licensed for the last ten years she has owned it. She co owned it and bought it out fro the other owner awhile back.

This part is hearsay, but according to many, the family is out for somone get punished, but they say they are not pushing for the suit, which no one believes. Everyone in the town is keeping quiet, because the family is well known, but the provider and county social service woman are also well known and very loved in the community. A lot of parents at the daycare are very upset because they lost there daycare and they loved it there from what I have heard. They don't want the provider to take the fall, but again this is just what I have heard from a few of the families I know.

[Unregistered]

This. As someone who had a family member go through very public legal issues a few years ago, I will say that a LOT of misinformation is put out by officials to make it seem as though the person they are targeting is 100% guilty. This way the person, rather than risk going to trial, takes a plea bargain. It makes the DA look good. And there are not as many trial lawyers as one would think - mostly they all want you to take the plea so the can get a fee and go home to their kids at a decent hour.

Threre was just an excellent article/study about how our legal system really isn't working because of the plea bargains, etc.

It's why I never believe anything until I can research ALL sides.

Obviously this will never be an okay situation - a child is dead. But if the provider was licensed, in ratio, actively supervising the kids, had all the i's dotted and t's crossed, etc then I hope she fights like hell.

imo it still wouldn't merit those kinds of charges, still a accident. The lifeguards didn't catch it either. If they find out she was't licensed that would probably be a misdemeanor.

You do have to research because there is so much bs reported. Recently a child died of SIDS just S. of me and it was in the paper. The reporter made sure to use the "illegal Daycare" card in his story online. I made sure to post that in our state you don't have to be licensed. He argued, even after going on their website because he didn't understand it.

I ended up giving him their phone number, and he did apologize. I also told him that wouldn't matter one bit in a case of SIDS. If one were unlicensed that is a completely different issue.

As for the court system you are correct, trials take a lot of time and inconveniences everyone involved.