Diva!

[NoMoreJuice!]

I'm having a pretty big problem that has been snowballing for a few months and has now reached avalanche status. Dcg2.5 has been getting really independent (good!) and sassy (not good!) the last few months, but is still small enough to require help with some tasks, although she would disagree.

She is too small to:
Hop up on the toilet
Reach the faucet to wash hands
Get her jacket off the coat hook
Reach a book on the middle shelf of the bookcase
Get her nap mat from the high shelf where we store them
And more...

However, anytime I try to help her with something, she will throw a GIGANTIC THE-WORLD-IS-ENDING FIT! I've had some fit-throwers in my day, but this one is the queen of the fit-throwers. Seriously, I'm going to get her a crown. I just tried to help her onto the toilet after she struggled for several minutes for our normal after-lunch bathroom break. She SCREAMED at me and flew into such a rage that she could barely breathe. I gave her about five minutes to calm down, then I helped her off the toilet against her will, pulled up her pants, and helped her wash up. All the while, she was thrashing and trying to kick and hit me.

Last night, after she threw a HUGE tantrum about putting her boots on, it took her mom 25 minutes to load her in the car. 25 minutes of negotiating, compromising, begging, waiting, etc. Mom would pick her up, try to reason with her, attempt to put her in the car, get kicked in the face, and finally put the girl back down to bawl some more. Repeat seven or ten times. This is normal, by the way, to often see them outside for 5 to 10 minutes the last few months. Dcg usually decides to get in the car when she's ready. It's been getting worse though.

This lenient behavior is creating a very literal monster, in my opinion. Mom probably thinks she is creating a healthy sense of independence by letting dcg make choices, but I think she's gone too far. Has anyone seen this kind of parent/child interaction, and does it ever work out for the best? This is such a great mom, and the girl can be a darling most of the time, but I am very tired of all the screaming and non-compliance. Suggestions, advice?

[spedmommy4]

You can't change mom. I have a dck with that exact same personality, except he is 4.5 years old. He is an expert negotiator now.

Here, I don't negotiate with children. That said, it sounds like a big part of the issue is she wants to be independent and cannot. The other part is she wants control of the situation.

If it were me, I'd get two step stools. (One for the main area and one for the bathroom) Let her do it herself. It doesn't matter how long it takes. The exception might be if you were going outside; then you assist and let her have her fall out and ignore it.

If she misses out on things because of her insistence on doing everything herself she will begin to make the connection. Everytime she refuses help and misses out, just say, "sorry dcg, you took to long to do x and now that activity is over."

You fix it at childcare by giving her a little independence and taking yourself out of the never ending power struggle. In my experience, sharing my strategies with parents hasn't been very useful. They don't often use them.

[Blackcat31]

You can't change mom. I have a dck with that exact same personality, except he is 4.5 years old. He is an expert negotiator now.

Here, I don't negotiate with children. That said, it sounds like a big part of the issue is she wants to be independent and cannot. The other part is she wants control of the situation.

If it were me, I'd get two step stools. (One for the main area and one for the bathroom) Let her do it herself. It doesn't matter how long it takes. The exception might be if you were going outside; then you assist and let her have her fall out and ignore it.

If she misses out on things because of her insistence on doing everything herself she will begin to make the connection. Everytime she refuses help and misses out, just say, "sorry dcg, you took to long to do x and now that activity is over."

You fix it at childcare by giving her a little independence and taking yourself out of the never ending power struggle. In my experience, sharing my strategies with parents hasn't been very useful. They don't often use them.

I agree with this but I would go a couple steps farther and not necessarily allow her to miss out on an activity and say that she took too long. Independence does take a long time when you are little in a big world created by big people with big people in mind.

My advice for your specific issues are as follows:

Hop up on the toilet: Get a taller stool and/or make sure there is something to grab onto to steady herself while getting situated.

Reach the faucet to wash hands: Allow her to reach/do what she can but if she gets REALLY upset because you want to turn the water on for her, I'd almost try to be pre-emptive and flip the faucet on while she is on the toilet with a quick "Here Suzy, I'll turn this on now for you so you can wash your hands by yourself when you are done" comment and she'll probably be fine as she'll hear the do it yourself part more than anything.

Get her jacket off the coat hook: Have some hooks that are lower to the ground so your littler kids who are learning independence can reach them.

Reach a book on the middle shelf of the bookcase: Ideally books geared for her age group SHOULD be low enough for them to access on their own.

Get her nap mat from the high shelf where we store them: Before nap...usually while the kids are still eating, I quickly put the nap mats, pillows and blankets down on the floor so that when they are done, they are all able to go into the nap room and choose their mat/pillow/blanket themselves. It only takes a quick minute and saves a ton though because no one has a fit about not being able to do it themselves.

[Blackcat31]

Last night, after she threw a HUGE tantrum about putting her boots on, it took her mom 25 minutes to load her in the car. 25 minutes of negotiating, compromising, begging, waiting, etc. Mom would pick her up, try to reason with her, attempt to put her in the car, get kicked in the face, and finally put the girl back down to bawl some more. Repeat seven or ten times. This is normal, by the way, to often see them outside for 5 to 10 minutes the last few months. Dcg usually decides to get in the car when she's ready. It's been getting worse though.

This lenient behavior is creating a very literal monster, in my opinion. Mom probably thinks she is creating a healthy sense of independence by letting dcg make choices, but I think she's gone too far. Has anyone seen this kind of parent/child interaction, and does it ever work out for the best? This is such a great mom, and the girl can be a darling most of the time, but I am very tired of all the screaming and non-compliance. Suggestions, advice?

I would allow mom "X" amount of time to negotiate with the child in your house before saying "Looks like this isn't going to be resolved any time soon. Maybe it's time to take it to the car. Have a great night and I'll see you in the morning. Bye Mom/DCG!"

As for the 25 minute struggle to get her IN the car? NOT your problem as it's not happening in YOUR time. Let mom deal with the issue she's created.

[Febby]

You fix it at childcare by giving her a little independence and taking yourself out of the never ending power struggle. In my experience, sharing my strategies with parents hasn't been very useful. They don't often use them.

Yup, give her as much independence as you safely and practically can. Really, it's nice once they can master skills anyway, since it's one less thing you have to do. The things you can't let her do by herself, she'll just have to learn that those are teacher things.

The only time I ever bother sharing my strategies with parents is on the rare occasion they ask. Otherwise, they won't bother listening. So the fact that it's taking mom 25 minutes to get her in the car is really just mom's problem.

[Unregistered]

I am seeing two separate things. One: she wants to do things for herself, and two: she doesn't want to do somethings and refuses to? She wants to climb the potty herself- great. Let her do it. Give her a step stool and let it take as long as it takes. Is there something that she must hurry to next?... As far as her flat out refusing to do things like get her boots on, that's different. I would tell her 'put on the boots or I will put the boots on you. This is it. Choose. Me do it or you do it....' Then Wait... If she doesn't do it, put them on her while she has a fit. Then I would say 'Next time you can do it when it's time or I will have to do it for you next time too'... For getting in the car, that's mom's situation to handle. But if it were me, I would say 'get in your seat or I will put you in. You do it or me do it...' Then wait. If she did it, great! If not, I would put her in during the fit. Then I'd tell her the same thing, 'next time you can get in yourself when it's time or I will just have to do it for you.. When it's time to get in the car, that means its time to get in the car." If she is making legitimate efforts to do what needs to be done (and it just takes for-freaking-ever), I would let her do it and be patient.

If there is a real reason you can't wait around (and she really is trying, not stalling), I would say, 'I have to help you with this now because if we don't go get the food out (or whatever), it will get ruined! We have to hurry. I k is you really want to do this yourself and next time you can, but this time, I have to help you to make it quick'... Something along those lines.

I feel like you can teach Independence, patience, and a little flexibility handling all these episodes. And remember that's kind of the point- we are all doing our best to give these kids opportunities to learn and grow. So, try not to let these situations stress you out. Think of it as being scheduled into the day! Know that it is going to take 30 minutes for Susie to go potty, etc and do your best to plan for it..! Good luck!

[spedmommy4]

I agree with this but I would go a couple steps farther and not necessarily allow her to miss out on an activity and say that she took too long. Independence does take a long time when you are little in a big world created by big people with big people in mind.

My advice for your specific issues are as follows:

Hop up on the toilet: Get a taller stool and/or make sure there is something to grab onto to steady herself while getting situated.

Reach the faucet to wash hands: Allow her to reach/do what she can but if she gets REALLY upset because you want to turn the water on for her, I'd almost try to be pre-emptive and flip the faucet on while she is on the toilet with a quick "Here Suzy, I'll turn this on now for you so you can wash your hands by yourself when you are done" comment and she'll probably be fine as she'll hear the do it yourself part more than anything.

Get her jacket off the coat hook: Have some hooks that are lower to the ground so your littler kids who are learning independence can reach them.

Reach a book on the middle shelf of the bookcase: Ideally books geared for her age group SHOULD be low enough for them to access on their own.

Get her nap mat from the high shelf where we store them: Before nap...usually while the kids are still eating, I quickly put the nap mats, pillows and blankets down on the floor so that when they are done, they are all able to go into the nap room and choose their mat/pillow/blanket themselves. It only takes a quick minute and saves a ton though because no one has a fit about not being able to do it themselves.

Absolutely! I don't think that read the way I intended it. You modify where you can and move on to the next activity where it's clear the issue is a power struggle.

[Blackcat31]

Absolutely! I don't think that read the way I intended it. You modify where you can and move on to the next activity where it's clear the issue is a power struggle.

I would definitely just move along in this case too!

[NoMoreJuice!]

I agree with this but I would go a couple steps farther and not necessarily allow her to miss out on an activity and say that she took too long. Independence does take a long time when you are little in a big world created by big people with big people in mind.

My advice for your specific issues are as follows:

Hop up on the toilet: Get a taller stool and/or make sure there is something to grab onto to steady herself while getting situated.

Reach the faucet to wash hands: Allow her to reach/do what she can but if she gets REALLY upset because you want to turn the water on for her, I'd almost try to be pre-emptive and flip the faucet on while she is on the toilet with a quick "Here Suzy, I'll turn this on now for you so you can wash your hands by yourself when you are done" comment and she'll probably be fine as she'll hear the do it yourself part more than anything.

Get her jacket off the coat hook: Have some hooks that are lower to the ground so your littler kids who are learning independence can reach them.

Reach a book on the middle shelf of the bookcase: Ideally books geared for her age group SHOULD be low enough for them to access on their own.

Get her nap mat from the high shelf where we store them: Before nap...usually while the kids are still eating, I quickly put the nap mats, pillows and blankets down on the floor so that when they are done, they are all able to go into the nap room and choose their mat/pillow/blanket themselves. It only takes a quick minute and saves a ton though because no one has a fit about not being able to do it themselves.

Everyone has great points, and I totally agree that independence rocks and we should be facilitating it, but I am just having a hard time thinking of catering to a demanding little diva when 11 other kids in the house have no problem with the way we do things. For example, about 30 board books of all different size and subject matter are all on the bottom shelf, but the nice paper ones that I don't want ruined are up high. We take those down and read them together, often, but she doesn't want me to read them, she wants to do it HERSELF. I let her try to turn the page while I hold it, but that's just not what she wants, so she SCREAMS at me.

I guess I can be more accommodating to allow her freedom to do some things herself, so Monday I will try having her go potty last (have 9 others use the same bathroom) so she can take her time and I won't feel rushed to get all the other kids on. I'm sure she will throw a gigantic fit about being last though, so I kind of feel like I can't win. I will start putting her jacket in her cubby where she can reach it, but it's a pullover that she truly can't pull on herself, so maybe I'll have to ask mom for one she can actually do herself. She will SCREAM at me if I offer to help.

I like the "You do it, or I'll do it" choices. I think we're going to try that this week with things that I know she can do herself, but is too stubborn to do. Also, everyone is SO RIGHT about not worrying about what's going on outside! Mom will get sick of it eventually. I just feel like she's feeding dcg's desire to control everything. How do you help a strong-willed child be more compromising and compliant?

[spedmommy4]

Everyone has great points, and I totally agree that independence rocks and we should be facilitating it, but I am just having a hard time thinking of catering to a demanding little diva when 11 other kids in the house have no problem with the way we do things. For example, about 30 board books of all different size and subject matter are all on the bottom shelf, but the nice paper ones that I don't want ruined are up high. We take those down and read them together, often, but she doesn't want me to read them, she wants to do it HERSELF. I let her try to turn the page while I hold it, but that's just not what she wants, so she SCREAMS at me.

I guess I can be more accommodating to allow her freedom to do some things herself, so Monday I will try having her go potty last (have 9 others use the same bathroom) so she can take her time and I won't feel rushed to get all the other kids on. I'm sure she will throw a gigantic fit about being last though, so I kind of feel like I can't win. I will start putting her jacket in her cubby where she can reach it, but it's a pullover that she truly can't pull on herself, so maybe I'll have to ask mom for one she can actually do herself. She will SCREAM at me if I offer to help.

I like the "You do it, or I'll do it" choices. I think we're going to try that this week with things that I know she can do herself, but is too stubborn to do. Also, everyone is SO RIGHT about not worrying about what's going on outside! Mom will get sick of it eventually. I just feel like she's feeding dcg's desire to control everything. How do you help a strong-willed child be more compromising and compliant?

I believe, that to a large degree, a strong will falls under temperament. For example, I am stubborn. I have stong opinions about lots of things. It's a big part of the reason I am much better as my own boss.

Strong willed children in childcare are often a huge handful. The 4 year old I have in care basically told me he was the boss when he first started.

With him, I use choices for everything. Yes, everything. He doesn't always like the choices but he has them.
For example, with your dcg, her potty choice would be
Go first and I help
Go last and do it yourself
She has a choice. Put it on her.
Sometimes the choice is, do it now or I'll help you. The only rule with choices is that both should be acceptable to you.

[Blackcat31]

Everyone has great points, and I totally agree that independence rocks and we should be facilitating it, but I am just having a hard time thinking of catering to a demanding little diva when 11 other kids in the house have no problem with the way we do things.

With this added info, my advice would change a bit....

For example, about 30 board books of all different size and subject matter are all on the bottom shelf, but the nice paper ones that I don't want ruined are up high. We take those down and read them together, often, but she doesn't want me to read them, she wants to do it HERSELF. I let her try to turn the page while I hold it, but that's just not what she wants, so she SCREAMS at me.

At the VERY first inkling of protest from her in this case would result in immediately removing her from the group. She does NOT get to help or use those books period. Redirect her to the books she can use.
If she protests she leaves.

(I think allowing her to help turn the pages is giving her the idea she CAN use those books....atleast right now when she isn't capable of understanding sometimes she can and sometimes she can't..kwim?)

Rinse and repeat with out too much explain as her "understandable language" at this age is action not words.

I guess I can be more accommodating to allow her freedom to do some things herself, so Monday I will try having her go potty last (have 9 others use the same bathroom) so she can take her time and I won't feel rushed to get all the other kids on. I'm sure she will throw a gigantic fit about being last though, so I kind of feel like I can't win.

Without meaning to sound mean, but who cares? Kids have fits about not being first, last or only....she can have a fit but I wouldn't let it sway me from my normal routine.

I will start putting her jacket in her cubby where she can reach it, but it's a pullover that she truly can't pull on herself, so maybe I'll have to ask mom for one she can actually do herself.
That is definitely a good idea because in that situation MOM is setting her (and you) up for the drama.

She will SCREAM at me if I offer to help.

First inkling of screaming at me (verses using words to say she'd like to do it herself) and I would do it for her regardless of her protests...verbal or physical. I would absolutely draw the line at respectful protesting and not allow her behavior to be bratty without a consequence.

I like the "You do it, or I'll do it" choices. I think we're going to try that this week with things that I know she can do herself, but is too stubborn to do. Also, everyone is SO RIGHT about not worrying about what's going on outside! Mom will get sick of it eventually. I just feel like she's feeding dcg's desire to control everything. How do you help a strong-willed child be more compromising and compliant?

I replied in bold above. My strategies/advice changed a bit from the first time around because of your added info. The additional info paints a bigger picture of a diva than it did previously... in the first post it just sounded like a really independent 2 yr old that was rarely allowed a chance to be independent.