The Kid Who Won't Take No For An Answer

[spud912]

......and that kid is mine..... . She used to be really bad when she was around 2 years old and then it did improve for some time, but now she's back to her old tricks (she's 4 1/2 now so ABSOLUTELY old enough to know better). It's not like I don't say it to her.....I tell her no literally every 45 minutes because she asks for ridiculous things (like candy for breakfast). I think she believes that since she asked for something nicely she is entitled to it ("may I please ____________").

When I say no, she throws an epic temper tantrum every.single.time and it's so draining (like jumping up and down, crying, screaming, even throwing herself on the floor). We've been separating her (time out) until she calms down, but it takes 15-20 minutes sometimes....only for her to do it again 30-45 minutes later. This behavior started getting really bad about 3 weeks ago and she is starting to do it out in public, which really just grinds my gears . We went to a birthday party for a child recently and she tried cutting in line. I told her to go to the back of the line and she started throwing major attitude at me "I AM AT THE BACK OF THE LINE!!!!" Grrrr......

It's getting to the point where I'm starting to say no to her for everything, even things she totally can do.....just to be retaliatory and give her a lesson.

Any advice?

[Blackcat31]

......and that kid is mine..... . She used to be really bad when she was around 2 years old and then it did improve for some time, but now she's back to her old tricks (she's 4 1/2 now so ABSOLUTELY old enough to know better). It's not like I don't say it to her.....I tell her no literally every 45 minutes because she asks for ridiculous things (like candy for breakfast). I think she believes that since she asked for something nicely she is entitled to it ("may I please ____________").

When I say no, she throws an epic temper tantrum every.single.time and it's so draining (like jumping up and down, crying, screaming, even throwing herself on the floor). We've been separating her (time out) until she calms down, but it takes 15-20 minutes sometimes....only for her to do it again 30-45 minutes later. This behavior started getting really bad about 3 weeks ago and she is starting to do it out in public, which really just grinds my gears . We went to a birthday party for a child recently and she tried cutting in line. I told her to go to the back of the line and she started throwing major attitude at me "I AM AT THE BACK OF THE LINE!!!!" Grrrr......

It's getting to the point where I'm starting to say no to her for everything, even things she totally can do.....just to be retaliatory and give her a lesson.

Any advice?

Is this the little one I want?! "was" your middle one...

My DS was the same way. I learned to turn it back onto him. When he asked something he KNEW he couldn't do/have, I just asked him "Well what do YOU think?" Sometimes he stopped and let it go and that was that and sometimes he pitched a fit about it. He was promptly sent to his room to FEEL however he wanted to feel....just couldn't do it in public and his "public" was in front of anyone else. A lot of times if you do not provide an audience there is no show.

Another thing that worked was visuals. I put photos of things he "COULD" have (snack, activities etc) or do on a poster board on our fridge. Any time he asked for something I'd ask him if it was on the approved list. If not, he knew the answer.

As for the public displays, I would be prepared to up and leave whatever event you are at IMMEDIATELY just to show her that you CAN and WILL if necessary. Once they understand that and KNOW you aren't kidding, you don't really have to do it anymore.

In my experience, Ive found the stubborn kids need CLEAR, black and white rules with immediate consequences and very few second chances because those second changes ARE the openings they thrive on!

Good luck! I don't envy you as I had one of my own.... :hug:

...but I still want yours.

[KIDZRMYBIZ]

Any advice?

YES!!!!!!!!!!! I have thee best advice ever! And that is...(drum roll, please)...Mr. John Rosemond!

I have your kid! Our 2nd DS was something else, let me tell you. I feel your pain! I have been there, done that! I thought I was going to have to quit daycare cuz that kid would have such massive tantrums well beyond the age that that kind of behavior was at least expected, even if not appropriate. I would get so stressed about how it would look or sound if a DCF witnessed him freaking out, and would wonder how I could possibly manage a daycare full of kids if I couldn't control one of my own kids even.

Then, I discovered John Rosemond and all his beautiful, wonderful bags of tricks. When my DS was 3, we used his "I Called the Doctor, and the Doctor Said" trick combined with his "Ticket System" combined with his views on "Privatizing Behaviors." Basically, we told our son "the doctor" said he was having tantrums because he was too tired. He had 3 chances (tickets) to control himself. It was okay to be mad/upset/disappointed/frustrated, but that he needed to display those emotions in private (in his bedroom), and if he lost all 3 tickets he was obviously tired and would have to go to bed immediately following dinner. It worked! 100%! And quickly!

Google him. Follow his advice. His tactics are meant for our kind of kid. It helped my little guy learn self-control and socially acceptable behavior. He is now a very intelligent, sweet, well-liked by all 6th-grader.

[Blackcat31]

YES!!!!!!!!!!! I have thee best advice ever! And that is...(drum roll, please)...Mr. John Rosemond!

I have your kid! Our 2nd DS was something else, let me tell you. I feel your pain! I have been there, done that! I thought I was going to have to quit daycare cuz that kid would have such massive tantrums well beyond the age that that kind of behavior was at least expected, even if not appropriate. I would get so stressed about how it would look or sound if a DCF witnessed him freaking out, and would wonder how I could possibly manage a daycare full of kids if I couldn't control one of my own kids even.

Then, I discovered John Rosemond and all his beautiful, wonderful bags of tricks. When my DS was 3, we used his "I Called the Doctor, and the Doctor Said" trick combined with his "Ticket System" combined with his views on "Privatizing Behaviors." Basically, we told our son "the doctor" said he was having tantrums because he was too tired. He had 3 chances (tickets) to control himself. It was okay to be mad/upset/disappointed/frustrated, but that he needed to display those emotions in private (in his bedroom), and if he lost all 3 tickets he was obviously tired and would have to go to bed immediately following dinner. It worked! 100%! And quickly!

Google him. Follow his advice. His tactics are meant for our kind of kid. It helped my little guy learn self-control and socially acceptable behavior. He is now a very intelligent, sweet, well-liked by all 6th-grader.

LOL! That's where my advice comes from 9/10 times.

I found his Parent Power (I think it's been re-issued as The New Parent Power) book back in the mid 90ies and it was a life saver!

It saved me, my son and my marriage. LOL!

http://www.amazon.com/John-Rosemonds-New-Parent-Power/dp/0740714155

[KIDZRMYBIZ]

Black Cat and I posted essentially the same ideas. I think she's a Rosemond fan, too, if I recall correctly.

On the second chances thing, I agree. Our kind of kid definitely thrives on 2nd chances. The ticket system we used not as extra chances (basically excusing it the first few times), but as a method of him learning to gain control over himself quickly. We wanted to teach him anti-social behavior is not okay, EVER. He lost the first ticket surely when he began a fit, but then another if he didn't take it to his room immediately, and then the final one if he was still too disruptive (too loud or going on for too long). He went to bed extra early 4 times - and it ruined evening plans 3 of those times, one of them even missing a monster truck show that we had already paid for - but then he understood that this was serious. He decided it was in his best interests to figure it out for himself, and he did.

Yours will, too! :hug:

[spud912]

Is this the little one I want?! "was" your middle one...

My DS was the same way. I learned to turn it back onto him. When he asked something he KNEW he couldn't do/have, I just asked him "Well what do YOU think?" Sometimes he stopped and let it go and that was that and sometimes he pitched a fit about it. He was promptly sent to his room to FEEL however he wanted to feel....just couldn't do it in public and his "public" was in front of anyone else. A lot of times if you do not provide an audience there is no show.

Another thing that worked was visuals. I put photos of things he "COULD" have (snack, activities etc) or do on a poster board on our fridge. Any time he asked for something I'd ask him if it was on the approved list. If not, he knew the answer.

As for the public displays, I would be prepared to up and leave whatever event you are at IMMEDIATELY just to show her that you CAN and WILL if necessary. Once they understand that and KNOW you aren't kidding, you don't really have to do it anymore.

In my experience, Ive found the stubborn kids need CLEAR, black and white rules with immediate consequences and very few second chances because those second changes ARE the openings they thrive on!

Good luck! I don't envy you as I had one of my own.... :hug:

...but I still want yours.

Yes, BC, this would be my little charmer. She is like a sour patch kid, only sweet on the outside and sour in the middle. She draws you in like candy and then chews you up and spits you out ::. I'm hoping our baby grows up to not be a handful....cause #1 and 2 are putting us through the ringer! I always told my dh that if they weren't our children they would have been termed! #1 was aggressive and a biter....had major meltdowns for YEARS (and still does on occasion). Yet her teacher tells me that she is the best kid in class :confused:. #2 charms everyone out there, but screams all the time and still throws temper tantrums when she doesn't get her way. On the plus side, #1 has the biggest heart and always thinks of everyone else. #2 is super funny, eccentric and everyone adores her.

Black Cat and I posted essentially the same ideas. I think she's a Rosemond fan, too, if I recall correctly.

On the second chances thing, I agree. Our kind of kid definitely thrives on 2nd chances. The ticket system we used not as extra chances (basically excusing it the first few times), but as a method of him learning to gain control over himself quickly. We wanted to teach him anti-social behavior is not okay, EVER. He lost the first ticket surely when he began a fit, but then another if he didn't take it to his room immediately, and then the final one if he was still too disruptive (too loud or going on for too long). He went to bed extra early 4 times - and it ruined evening plans 3 of those times, one of them even missing a monster truck show that we had already paid for - but then he understood that this was serious. He decided it was in his best interests to figure it out for himself, and he did.

Yours will, too! :hug:

Thanks! Yes, I actually got his New Parenting book and started reading it (and LOVE it by the way, at least what I have read so far). I haven't gotten to the ticket part but will soon. I have been trying to convince dh to read it too cause I think he will be yelling "yes!!" as he is reading it (many things he has said that I am guilty of are in the book ).

[AmyKidsCo]

Sounds like my kids! I like Love and Logic techniques, even if I'm not really great at following them.

I'd also ask "What do you think?" or smile and say "Nice try sweetie, but you know we don't have candy for breakfast." (or whatever) or "Of course you can have candy... after supper for dessert."

When my kids throw tantrums, or are mouthy, etc, they go to their room until they can be "sweet" again.