Sick Kids From A Physician's View

[NeedaVaca]

So pretty much what the Dr. says is "Daycares are requiring Dr notes when they are barely sick and that's dumb" (im paraphrasing here) and then goes on to say that "only kids that have high fevers, feel so bad that they can't function and need more care than the provider can offer should stay home" .... um, that's what we're doing. :confused:

Loved your FB post! I'm hoping she responds

[MarinaVanessa]

Loved your FB post! I'm hoping she responds

Yeah, I hope so too ... but I doubt it.

Nan ...

[NightOwl]

I posted too. Couldn't help myself.

[nannyde]

Why Sick Kids Should “NOT” Be Allowed at DaycareDaycare.com Presents

https://www.daycare.com/nannyde/why-sick-kids-should-not-be-allowed-at-daycare.htm

I added a few things to the original letter. Now to figure out how to post to her blog. I can't see where to comment

[Lucy]

I only read through the first 8-10 responses, but I have to say I kind of agree with this doctor.

This:

"Already I get lots of parents complaining about how daycare makes their kids sick -- and it's absolutely true that kids in daycare are more likely to get viral illnesses than those who aren't.

But... that's not all bad. There's plenty of research these days to suggest that getting a few illnesses as a young child ends up being good for you in the long run. It helps to strengthen the immune system. And since very often we are contagious before we even realize we are sick, kids (and staff) are getting exposed anyway."

says it all.

I grew up with my mom doing DC before I was even born. She and Dad, as well as us kids, were exposed to all kinds of c.r.a.p. While I concede the fact that maybe good genes are part of the reason, I still say that it's BECAUSE of being exposed to all the c.r.a.p. that NONE of us are ones to get sick more than once every 10 years. I've done DC 20 years, and have called off twice - about 15 years apart. And only for one day each.

And I completely agree with this as well:

"Nobody is saying that kids should go to daycare if they are really sick. They shouldn't go if they have a high fever, if they are having frequent vomiting or diarrhea, if their cough is so bad it limits activity, if they are miserable in any way. But lots of daycares exclude kids for things like the slightest fever, any diarrhea, one episode of vomiting, the mildest pinkeye or any rash besides a diaper rash."

They need to be kept home if they're currently puking or have things like a high fever that make them lethargic. It's more work for US if these things happen, so of course they should stay home where THEY are most comfortable and comforTED by Mom.

"1. Does the child's illness keep him or her from comfortably taking part in activities?
2. Does the sick child need more care than the staff can give without affecting the health and safety of other children?"

^^^ Exactly!

I realize we're all different in our methods. Yours is great if you have strict sickness policies! But merely speaking for myself, I feel like kids are exposed to it before symptoms occur, so it's pretty much a moot point. AND I feel that kids NEED to have exposure to at least some germs.

I feel like as a society, we over-wash our hands too. So there!!! I know I'm the odd man out. Whatever.....

[Lucy]

I deal with a lot of childhood illnesses and don't exclude for many things for which other providers will exclude. In return, if I call a parent and say "take this child to the doctor" they do exactly that.

I also have gotten respectful parents who know when to stay home and care for their child, or will call and say, "This is going on...what you like me to do?"
I don't think that physician is "ridiculous" but I do think parents, doctors and providers need to work together to find a balance.

There ARE providers out there excluding for every little thing, and I feel these are the people to whom he is speaking, not those of us who use common sense. As someone said, most of us are asking those same questions.

YES!!! You said it well. I ditto all of what you said!

[NeedaVaca]

Why Sick Kids Should “NOT” Be Allowed at DaycareDaycare.com Presents

https://www.daycare.com/nannyde/why-sick-kids-should-not-be-allowed-at-daycare.htm

I added a few things to the original letter. Now to figure out how to post to her blog. I can't see where to comment

Loved this! Seriously good

You may just have to post a link in comments because I don't see a way to post either? Maybe Daycare.com can put your letter up on their facebook page

[Patches]

Dr. Claire McCarthy,

My name is Tori Fees. I’m a Registered Nurse and veteran child care provider. I have cared for kids in the capacity of private nanny, elementary school nurse, and home child care provider for thirty years.

I came upon your article “Why Sick Kids Should Be Allowed at Daycare” published by Huffpost. As a veteran and expert child care provider, I feel it is important to address your publication as it speaks to many of the common misconceptions Physicians have regarding admittance into child care after the child has been excluded by a school, child care center, or home child care. My hope is that you will reconsider some of your viewpoints when you hear some of the concerns from the ladies on the ground who are caring for multi-level aged group children in these settings.

Each licensed and registered child care providers have illness policies. Every state in the U.S. requires that guidelines are set to differentiate an excludable illness and a “mild” or “minor” illness. Independently owned child care providers have the blessing and burden of developing their own policies that must at least meet the minimum standards set forth by their respective state. I’m certain you have come across variations in the policies of the privately owned child care services.

When a parent brings a child into your office, you may not be aware of what the child care policies are. Fortunately for you, you don’t have to know the specifics as your job is to simply diagnose the child and provide treatment should it be deemed necessary. The parent may ask you to provide a “return to daycare” note but you are not required to do so.

Your article laments on the frustration you feel when parents access expensive treatment such as emergency rooms and urgent care clinics for minor illnesses solely for the purpose of obtaining a return to daycare note. I agree wholeheartedly that these very expensive medical services should not be utilized for this purpose if the child is experiencing a mild illness. Remember that the parent is the one choosing to access this level of care. You would be hard pressed to find a child care provider who would encourage a parent to go to this extreme. It is likely the cost of the services in these expensive care centers far exceeds the salary loss the parent will endure while missing a few days of work. If the parent is given free or near free access to these services and chooses to utilize them for minor illness, there should be a swift and immediate financial recourse to recoup the unnecessary expense. As long as it is free or near free this practice will continue. I encourage you to use your position to campaign for financial accountability when these services are being misused.

When a parent accesses medical care for the purpose of obtaining a “return to child care” note the first question you need to ask is if the child care asked for one. It used to be standard practice to ask your opinion but that is no longer the case. Providers across the country have had SO many bad experiences with these notes that they have changed their requests to ONLY a diagnosis, determination of whether or not the child is communicable, and documentation of any treatment you may prescribe. There is also a high likelihood that the parent wasn’t asked to take the child to the doctor. The child may have been excluded based on symptoms observed by the provider and was simply excluded until the symptoms are no longer present within a certain time frame. There’s a good chance that a recommendation to seek medical care for the symptoms wasn’t requested.

Often, a parent who has received an exclusion comes to you because they want you in the middle of the “no” they have just received. They misunderstand our relationship because they believe your determination would somehow trump ours. It doesn’t.

Child care providers don’t work with or under your license. We can’t rely upon your determination for return to daycare because you don’t know our population. You can’t possibly know what children are in attendance in our care. You don’t know if we have newborns, children with compromised immune systems, special needs children, new children to the child care, or children who have been out on vacation. You don’t know whether or not the children in attendance have even met your patient. You don’t know if the children have been exposed before diagnosis and whether or not the illness could have devastating affects on one when the effect on your patient is minor. You don’t know if repeated exposure will increase the likelihood of infection.

We can’t rely upon your determination for return to daycare because we aren’t a part of the history you take on the child before the exam. We don’t know if the parent has been truthful to you when giving an oral account of the child’s condition. We don’t know if the child’s fever has been masked with antipyretics before coming into your office. We don’t know if the parent has minimized the account of the excludable symptoms by words such as “spit up” instead of “vomit”, “loose poop” instead of blowout diarrhea. We don’t know if the parent is attributing the symptoms to something he ate, undiagnosed allergies, or the infamous “teething” used in nearly every parental diagnosis.

The other parents of the children attending child care with a sick kid aren’t going to be bummed out when they find out your patient is attending with a fever. They are going to find another daycare. Parents are very concerned about the health of the other children BEFORE their child becomes ill. Once their child becomes ill the concern for the health of the other children wanes dramatically. That lack of concern often drives them to your office to ask for you to intercede and remediate the decision of the provider. There are some exceptional parents who have consistent concern regardless of what child is ill but they are becoming extremely difficult to find.

You are correct that children in child care have more viral illnesses than children who don’t attend child care. Have you ever considered that the reason for this is that the parents of the children attending day care are bringing their kid in for your return notes when parents of kids who are not in child care don’t access medical care for the same symptoms? If you stop offering return notes you may find the statistics change dramatically.

If you truly believe the illnesses are minor and the child should not be excluded maybe you should consider offering the child to hang out in your office the next day. Put him squarely in the middle of the waiting room lounge where the “well child” visit kids are. When the well child’s visit is over let their mothers know that the kids sharing their space were excluded from daycare because of “minor” illnesses like one vomit, a little fever, a diarrhea bout that’s on the tail end, and a slight case of pink eye. The mothers will be bummed and they will find a new doctor.

If you really want to make a difference and are willing to become involved in this vicious cycle of exclusion the best thing you could do would be to counsel parents on the average number of illnesses young children get per year. Explain to them that they are going to have to miss work because their kid is most likely going to get sick often. Encourage them to use their precious paid time off wisely. Tell them to not be tempted to squander their paid time off with “me” days. Tell them to **** it up and go to work when they are mildly ill so they have the time available to care for their baby when he is mildly ill. Tell them it is better for them to go to work amongst other adults with their mild illness than to send their mildly ill kid to daycare with other babies.

If you want to make a difference, put in writing that you will assume all liability if another child in the child care contracts the illness. Put in writing that you will cover the cost of the missed days of work the provider will have if she contracts the illness. Put in writing that the child care providers children can be cared for by you free of charge while you are at it.

Fever is the number one indicator of health and it is masked with a nickel worth of medicine. If you want to make a difference, test for the presence of antipyretics in the child’s system. Do not take the parents word for it. Let your client know that you will ask and you will check. Google “dope and drop” and get a real education of how providers are deceived by parents to buy time through nap time or a day of daycare. Realize that not only are we the unwilling victim of deception but you are too. It happens a lot. If you start testing for it you will write far fewer return notes in your future.

The things that would really make a difference you won’t do. It’s easy to write a return note. It’s easy to please your customer. It makes you money. It’s hard to tell a parent you can’t recommend return either way because you don’t have the information you need to make a decision and you don’t want the liability. Encourage them to find a provider with illness policies they agree with rather than use you to intercede when the illness exclusions they agreed to before enrollment are enforced.

Better yet, stay out of the return to daycare notes business. It’s not your job to make sure a parent keeps their job. Just offer a diagnosis, whether you deem the illness as contagious, and the treatment you are giving the child. That’s all we need.

If a child care provider or school asks you to give a determination then by all means, accommodate them. Make sure you are actually being asked before you offer it. Most child care providers can determine the return time on their own. Their policies are in place for a reason. With your diagnosis and declaration of contagiousness, we can make our own decisions on a case by case basis. If you have any questions feel free to call the provider. Maybe a few conversations with the ladies on the front lines will change your prospective a bit. I hope mine has.

Sincerely,

Tori Fees R.N., B.S.N.

lovethislovethislovethis!!!
Words cannot describe how much I love this....especially the bolded.

[SignMeUp]

Is it just possible that this doctor is a bit of a crackpot?
Read this article on biting: http://www.boston.com/lifestyle/heal...her_child.html
where she says "If biting is happening in school or daycare, the stopping it part is reasonably straightforward. You have every right to expect that professionals (especially those you are paying) will keep your child safe. ... It's just not okay for that to happen in that setting. Anybody can be caught off guard once, but there should be no repeat biting."

And then this "It's way harder if Biter is a playgroup pal, or the child of a friend or a family member."

Yes, dear, it's soo much harder when each child has one-to-one supervision versus a group care situation

[CraftyMom]

Dr. Claire McCarthy,

My name is Tori Fees. I’m a Registered Nurse and veteran child care provider. I have cared for kids in the capacity of private nanny, elementary school nurse, and home child care provider for thirty years.

I came upon your article “Why Sick Kids Should Be Allowed at Daycare” published by Huffpost. As a veteran and expert child care provider, I feel it is important to address your publication as it speaks to many of the common misconceptions Physicians have regarding admittance into child care after the child has been excluded by a school, child care center, or home child care. My hope is that you will reconsider some of your viewpoints when you hear some of the concerns from the ladies on the ground who are caring for multi-level aged group children in these settings.

Each licensed and registered child care providers have illness policies. Every state in the U.S. requires that guidelines are set to differentiate an excludable illness and a “mild” or “minor” illness. Independently owned child care providers have the blessing and burden of developing their own policies that must at least meet the minimum standards set forth by their respective state. I’m certain you have come across variations in the policies of the privately owned child care services.

When a parent brings a child into your office, you may not be aware of what the child care policies are. Fortunately for you, you don’t have to know the specifics as your job is to simply diagnose the child and provide treatment should it be deemed necessary. The parent may ask you to provide a “return to daycare” note but you are not required to do so.

Your article laments on the frustration you feel when parents access expensive treatment such as emergency rooms and urgent care clinics for minor illnesses solely for the purpose of obtaining a return to daycare note. I agree wholeheartedly that these very expensive medical services should not be utilized for this purpose if the child is experiencing a mild illness. Remember that the parent is the one choosing to access this level of care. You would be hard pressed to find a child care provider who would encourage a parent to go to this extreme. It is likely the cost of the services in these expensive care centers far exceeds the salary loss the parent will endure while missing a few days of work. If the parent is given free or near free access to these services and chooses to utilize them for minor illness, there should be a swift and immediate financial recourse to recoup the unnecessary expense. As long as it is free or near free this practice will continue. I encourage you to use your position to campaign for financial accountability when these services are being misused.

When a parent accesses medical care for the purpose of obtaining a “return to child care” note the first question you need to ask is if the child care asked for one. It used to be standard practice to ask your opinion but that is no longer the case. Providers across the country have had SO many bad experiences with these notes that they have changed their requests to ONLY a diagnosis, determination of whether or not the child is communicable, and documentation of any treatment you may prescribe. There is also a high likelihood that the parent wasn’t asked to take the child to the doctor. The child may have been excluded based on symptoms observed by the provider and was simply excluded until the symptoms are no longer present within a certain time frame. There’s a good chance that a recommendation to seek medical care for the symptoms wasn’t requested.

Often, a parent who has received an exclusion comes to you because they want you in the middle of the “no” they have just received. They misunderstand our relationship because they believe your determination would somehow trump ours. It doesn’t.

Child care providers don’t work with or under your license. We can’t rely upon your determination for return to daycare because you don’t know our population. You can’t possibly know what children are in attendance in our care. You don’t know if we have newborns, children with compromised immune systems, special needs children, new children to the child care, or children who have been out on vacation. You don’t know whether or not the children in attendance have even met your patient. You don’t know if the children have been exposed before diagnosis and whether or not the illness could have devastating affects on one when the effect on your patient is minor. You don’t know if repeated exposure will increase the likelihood of infection.

We can’t rely upon your determination for return to daycare because we aren’t a part of the history you take on the child before the exam. We don’t know if the parent has been truthful to you when giving an oral account of the child’s condition. We don’t know if the child’s fever has been masked with antipyretics before coming into your office. We don’t know if the parent has minimized the account of the excludable symptoms by words such as “spit up” instead of “vomit”, “loose poop” instead of blowout diarrhea. We don’t know if the parent is attributing the symptoms to something he ate, undiagnosed allergies, or the infamous “teething” used in nearly every parental diagnosis.

The other parents of the children attending child care with a sick kid aren’t going to be bummed out when they find out your patient is attending with a fever. They are going to find another daycare. Parents are very concerned about the health of the other children BEFORE their child becomes ill. Once their child becomes ill the concern for the health of the other children wanes dramatically. That lack of concern often drives them to your office to ask for you to intercede and remediate the decision of the provider. There are some exceptional parents who have consistent concern regardless of what child is ill but they are becoming extremely difficult to find.

You are correct that children in child care have more viral illnesses than children who don’t attend child care. Have you ever considered that the reason for this is that the parents of the children attending day care are bringing their kid in for your return notes when parents of kids who are not in child care don’t access medical care for the same symptoms? If you stop offering return notes you may find the statistics change dramatically.

If you truly believe the illnesses are minor and the child should not be excluded maybe you should consider offering the child to hang out in your office the next day. Put him squarely in the middle of the waiting room lounge where the “well child” visit kids are. When the well child’s visit is over let their mothers know that the kids sharing their space were excluded from daycare because of “minor” illnesses like one vomit, a little fever, a diarrhea bout that’s on the tail end, and a slight case of pink eye. The mothers will be bummed and they will find a new doctor.

If you really want to make a difference and are willing to become involved in this vicious cycle of exclusion the best thing you could do would be to counsel parents on the average number of illnesses young children get per year. Explain to them that they are going to have to miss work because their kid is most likely going to get sick often. Encourage them to use their precious paid time off wisely. Tell them to not be tempted to squander their paid time off with “me” days. Tell them to **** it up and go to work when they are mildly ill so they have the time available to care for their baby when he is mildly ill. Tell them it is better for them to go to work amongst other adults with their mild illness than to send their mildly ill kid to daycare with other babies.

If you want to make a difference, put in writing that you will assume all liability if another child in the child care contracts the illness. Put in writing that you will cover the cost of the missed days of work the provider will have if she contracts the illness. Put in writing that the child care providers children can be cared for by you free of charge while you are at it.

Fever is the number one indicator of health and it is masked with a nickel worth of medicine. If you want to make a difference, test for the presence of antipyretics in the child’s system. Do not take the parents word for it. Let your client know that you will ask and you will check. Google “dope and drop” and get a real education of how providers are deceived by parents to buy time through nap time or a day of daycare. Realize that not only are we the unwilling victim of deception but you are too. It happens a lot. If you start testing for it you will write far fewer return notes in your future.

The things that would really make a difference you won’t do. It’s easy to write a return note. It’s easy to please your customer. It makes you money. It’s hard to tell a parent you can’t recommend return either way because you don’t have the information you need to make a decision and you don’t want the liability. Encourage them to find a provider with illness policies they agree with rather than use you to intercede when the illness exclusions they agreed to before enrollment are enforced.

Better yet, stay out of the return to daycare notes business. It’s not your job to make sure a parent keeps their job. Just offer a diagnosis, whether you deem the illness as contagious, and the treatment you are giving the child. That’s all we need.

If a child care provider or school asks you to give a determination then by all means, accommodate them. Make sure you are actually being asked before you offer it. Most child care providers can determine the return time on their own. Their policies are in place for a reason. With your diagnosis and declaration of contagiousness, we can make our own decisions on a case by case basis. If you have any questions feel free to call the provider. Maybe a few conversations with the ladies on the front lines will change your prospective a bit. I hope mine has.

Sincerely,

Tori Fees R.N., B.S.N.

PERFECT!!happyface

[craftymissbeth]

Is it just possible that this doctor is a bit of a crackpot?
Read this article on biting: http://www.boston.com/lifestyle/heal...her_child.html
where she says "If biting is happening in school or daycare, the stopping it part is reasonably straightforward. You have every right to expect that professionals (especially those you are paying) will keep your child safe. ... It's just not okay for that to happen in that setting. Anybody can be caught off guard once, but there should be no repeat biting."

And then this "It's way harder if Biter is a playgroup pal, or the child of a friend or a family member."

Yes, dear, it's soo much harder when each child has one-to-one supervision versus a group care situation

"if your child has a bite that breaks the skin, you should definitely call your doctor"

yes, call your doctor right away if they have a bite that breaks the skin, but be outraged if daycare excludes them for an actual illness symptom.

[craftymissbeth]

"If biting is happening in school or daycare, the stopping it part is reasonably straightforward. You have every right to expect that professionals (especially those you are paying) will keep your child safe. So if your child comes home with a bite, complain up the wazoo. Expect explanations and responses, and don't stop complaining until you get them--and until the biting stops. It's just not okay for that to happen in that setting. Anybody can be caught off guard once, but there should be no repeat biting."

Here's the rest of that paragraph...

[craftymissbeth]

She seems extremely anti-daycare.

[Patches]

"If biting is happening in school or daycare, the stopping it part is reasonably straightforward. You have every right to expect that professionals (especially those you are paying) will keep your child safe. So if your child comes home with a bite, complain up the wazoo. Expect explanations and responses, and don't stop complaining until you get them--and until the biting stops. It's just not okay for that to happen in that setting. Anybody can be caught off guard once, but there should be no repeat biting."

So funny that she says that it's reasonable to expect us to keep their child safe (true, that's very reasonable), but she wants us to put children (the same children we are expected to keep safe) at risk by playing a guessing game with illnesses.

[mountainside13]

Great post NannyD!


Parent picks up sick child from DC goes to doctor irritated about leaving work, parent complains about DC, Doctor writes article. ::

I will not post on her FB...so difficult!