Walk Me Through This...

[Unregistered]

You said they can gang up and 'scream no, no, no! at the other child as soon as mom leaves until that kid is bawling in tears on the floor'. If it were me, I would be all over the 'no screamers' as soon as the first "n" sound passed their lips, not after they've so upset their victim that he/she is "bawling" on the floor.
And the first scenario where the dck is screaming 'mine' across the room and doesn't get a reaction, so dck goes to the victim and screams 'mine' in their face until they cry?? Do you not intercept the behavior as soon as the first "mine" is spoken?
From your description, it just sounds like you are watching this all play out without intervening until it's totally out of control.
For these dcks who are screaming no and mine in order to get a rise out of another dck, you must put a stop to their behavior BEFORE it gets to the point of making others cry. They need to take a TO each and every single time they say no or mine with the sole intent of upsetting someone. EVERY time. They must feel that this is acceptable behavior to be continuing with it. Be consistent and never let it slide. Rinse, repeat until they get it. These kids sounds like little bullies.
And for what it's worth, if i were the parent of the child being screamed at, I would remove them from care if I knew this was happening on a regular basis.

I'm a member on several forums and usually read and rarely post but I feel the need to respond to this comment.

It's not met as anything personal towards the writer (Wednesday) but just a general comment.

Take a look back at posts from multiple people (registered/unregistered both) asking for advice on behaviour issues. Nine times out of ten, at least one person, and usually several are saying the same old nose-in-the-air criticisms, the "I don't tolerate that," or "I don't allow that in my house," or "I would never allow a child to do that," etc etc... ..and it's just getting really sad/old.

We are childcare providers.
We know how to discipline.
We know how to follow-though.
We do not tolerate poor behaviour.

So when we are at a loss trying to deal with a child that is not responding to our usual methods, it just doesn't help to have people simply dismissing it and saying "I don't tolerate that." I just wish people wouldn't be so quick to criticize and imply that we are not trying hard enough or being stern enough"

I think Bananas was asking for some serious advice on how to educate and teach the kids more positive behavious not just that she should put them in TO.

TO isn't always the answer and not something all providers use as a method of child guidance.
Her hands may also be tied by rules and regs of not only her state but if she works in a center.

She's also talking about 2 yr olds;, who respond much better to role modeling, redirection and education instead of a two minute TO.

[Leanna]

I'm a member on several forums and usually read and rarely post but I feel the need to respond to this comment.

It's not met as anything personal towards the writer (Wednesday) but just a general comment.

Take a look back at posts from multiple people (registered/unregistered both) asking for advice on behaviour issues. Nine times out of ten, at least one person, and usually several are saying the same old nose-in-the-air criticisms, the "I don't tolerate that," or "I don't allow that in my house," or "I would never allow a child to do that," etc etc... ..and it's just getting really sad/old.

We are childcare providers.
We know how to discipline.
We know how to follow-though.
We do not tolerate poor behaviour.

So when we are at a loss trying to deal with a child that is not responding to our usual methods, it just doesn't help to have people simply dismissing it and saying "I don't tolerate that." I just wish people wouldn't be so quick to criticize and imply that we are not trying hard enough or being stern enough"

I think Bananas was asking for some serious advice on how to educate and teach the kids more positive behavious not just that she should put them in TO.

TO isn't always the answer and not something all providers use as a method of child guidance.
Her hands may also be tied by rules and regs of not only her state but if she works in a center.

She's also talking about 2 yr olds;, who respond much better to role modeling, redirection and education instead of a two minute TO.

[Unregistered]

I tell them ALL the toys are mine. I am sharing with YOU. It usually stops them in their tracks and they move on. ::

I've done this too!

[NightOwl]

I'm a member on several forums and usually read and rarely post but I feel the need to respond to this comment.

It's not met as anything personal towards the writer (Wednesday) but just a general comment.

Take a look back at posts from multiple people (registered/unregistered both) asking for advice on behaviour issues. Nine times out of ten, at least one person, and usually several are saying the same old nose-in-the-air criticisms, the "I don't tolerate that," or "I don't allow that in my house," or "I would never allow a child to do that," etc etc... ..and it's just getting really sad/old.

We are childcare providers.
We know how to discipline.
We know how to follow-though.
We do not tolerate poor behaviour.

So when we are at a loss trying to deal with a child that is not responding to our usual methods, it just doesn't help to have people simply dismissing it and saying "I don't tolerate that." I just wish people wouldn't be so quick to criticize and imply that we are not trying hard enough or being stern enough"

I think Bananas was asking for some serious advice on how to educate and teach the kids more positive behavious not just that she should put them in TO.

TO isn't always the answer and not something all providers use as a method of child guidance.
Her hands may also be tied by rules and regs of not only her state but if she works in a center.

She's also talking about 2 yr olds;, who respond much better to role modeling, redirection and education instead of a two minute TO.

I didn't simply suggest time out. It sounded to me like she was sitting back and watching it all unfold with no action on her part. So that's what I responded to. Of course two year olds are going to display unsavory behaviors sometimes, but those behaviors will flourish and thrive in an environment where the adult is passive in managing those behaviors.

[preschoolteacher]

Sometimes it's just very hard to stop a child's behavior when you're the only adult. And supervision rules dictate that you can't separate a child from the group, even if he/she is being a bully. Or may even the provider's space doesn't give the option to seperate/divide children. Or maybe she does address the behavior but the child isn't responding. I see other options rather than laziness for this to keep happening.

But... I don't mind when people say "I don't tolerate that." it's helpful to me to learn what others will and will not tolerate. It helps me decide what I will tolerate! You know, some people might say "some 'no' and 'mine' language is acceptable, but I don't tolerate screaming or pushing..." I try to read everyone's response giving them the benefit of the doubt because it's very, very easy to come across more negatively than you intend online!!

[NightOwl]

Sometimes it's just very hard to stop a child's behavior when you're the only adult. And supervision rules dictate that you can't separate a child from the group, even if he/she is being a bully. Or may even the provider's space doesn't give the option to seperate/divide children. Or maybe she does address the behavior but the child isn't responding. I see other options rather than laziness for this to keep happening.

But... I don't mind when people say "I don't tolerate that." it's helpful to me to learn what others will and will not tolerate. It helps me decide what I will tolerate! You know, some people might say "some 'no' and 'mine' language is acceptable, but I don't tolerate screaming or pushing..." I try to read everyone's response giving them the benefit of the doubt because it's very, very easy to come across more negatively than you intend online!!

My regulations do allow for separation from the group for bullying type behavior or violent behavior. I'm in alabama, but I'm sure it's different depending on the state.

[NightOwl]

And I can tell you for certain that the kind of behavior the op talked about, where children are "ganging up" to scream in another child's face so they will cry, will not EVER be tolerated here. I would get it under control immediately, with whatever discipline practice that proved most effective for the instigators, or they would be put on a behavior plan and a short probation. I will not allow bullying, even if it's a two year old.

[SignMeUp]

:: It all just goes to prove what I think, for me ::
A toddler room is my idea of h3!! :: :: ::
A bunch of 1-2 year olds with no appropriate role models

[NightOwl]

And I can tell you for certain that the kind of behavior the op talked about, where children are "ganging up" to scream in another child's face so they will cry, will not EVER be tolerated here. I would get it under control immediately, with whatever discipline practice that proved most effective for the instigators, or they would be put on a behavior plan and a short probation. I will not allow bullying, even if it's a two year old.
Imagine being that little two year old being screamed at, right up in your face, for no good reason except to upset you. Or imagine being that parent where your child is being treated this way. I can almost guarantee the parent does not know, or they would've removed their child already.

[SignMeUp]

Going back to the OP, here is a general plan that I would try:
Whenever a "no, me, mine" situation breaks out, go to the group or call the group to you (which is what I would expect eventually - for them to listen and come to me for assistance). Then say, "First, it will be Bobby's turn. Susie will be NEXT." After a few minutes, remind Bobby that it will be Susie's turn soon. Then have Susie go to Bobby and say "Turn, please." When Bobby gives over the item, have Susie say, "Thank you, Bobby."
Then say, "It's Susie's turn now. Katie will be NEXT".
Lather, rinse, repeat. Mine have actually seen it as a game after a bit. Plan to be there for assistance in the beginning. You may as well plan to be, because you will need to be, kwim? ::::

Now, if Bobby doesn't give over the item, I would tell him that I will count to three, and then he can hand it to Susie, or I will hand it to Susie. 1 - 2 - Most kids will hand it now, so I say "Thank you!" It rhymes, they kind of get it.

Maybe your kids are ready for more in terms of verbal ability, but if you start simple, they can focus on the social skills and not be using their whole brain to come up with complicated words

[bananas]

Thank you for your replies, believe me I try to be on top of it but sometimes it happens in the blink of an eye! We all know how this can happen! Sometimes one simple "NO!" can send the other kid into tears rolling and screaming on the floor. At first it started out as a game between them all and now it's serious business. I tried to discipline them instantly whenever it started acting up - at one point all these kids were in time out ALL. THE. TIME.! For 3/4 it worked and for one it did not :-/ ...but of course, when the one starts it becomes contagious again! I also started questioning myself - should I be discipling children for saying "no?" They starting crying at no's in other sorts of contexts (e.g. Kid A: I want that toy you're playing with. Kid B: No. Kid A: WAHHHHHHHHHH so-and-so said NO! They get a time out!!!!!!" It's difficult to explain to children between the ages of 23 months and 30 months the difference between contexts in which the no is used :confused: I've tried to enforce "we use kind words here!" etc....the one who this is not really working for is the one kid who has the worst expressive and receptive language abilities...he just loves to jostle everyone into a screaming frenzy.

[Play Care]

Thank you for your replies, believe me I try to be on top of it but sometimes it happens in the blink of an eye! We all know how this can happen! Sometimes one simple "NO!" can send the other kid into tears rolling and screaming on the floor. At first it started out as a game between them all and now it's serious business. I tried to discipline them instantly whenever it started acting up - at one point all these kids were in time out ALL. THE. TIME.! For 3/4 it worked and for one it did not :-/ ...but of course, when the one starts it becomes contagious again! I also started questioning myself - should I be discipling children for saying "no?" They starting crying at no's in other sorts of contexts (e.g. Kid A: I want that toy you're playing with. Kid B: No. Kid A: WAHHHHHHHHHH so-and-so said NO! They get a time out!!!!!!" It's difficult to explain to children between the ages of 23 months and 30 months the difference between contexts in which the no is used :confused: I've tried to enforce "we use kind words here!" etc....the one who this is not really working for is the one kid who has the worst expressive and receptive language abilities...he just loves to jostle everyone into a screaming frenzy.

I certainly understand! I believe TO's for that age are completely inappropriate anyway. I think in your case I would be controlling who is playing with what *and* their location. With my very strong willed group I have to constantly set them up in different areas - so a couple of kids will be at the table with play doh, another couple of kids will be on the carpet with puzzles and another child or two will be over with cars/trucks. And no, they can't wander around the room.

When I can't be right there (either I'm by myself that day or I'm making a meal, etc.) all the kids "go up" in designated spots. Kids who have a hard time staying put go into a station where I can buckle them in legally At the table in a booster seat or a high chair with a toy or two - this is NOT a TO or punishment, and it's not something that is done "just because" or for long (I have regs about how long a child can be "contained" and personal beliefs about it - but I also have common sense which tells me when my back is turned/I'm alone, certain kids will take advantage with sometimes disastrous results )

When we go outside we start with provider led games - very active ones. Then depending on the kids, I assign activities - two in the sandbox, two in the mud kitchen, two on the swings, etc. Again, no wandering around the yard, getting friends upset, etc.

Good Luck!

[NightOwl]

Have you tried the hula hoops thing? Where they all sit inside their own hula hoop with their toys and no one can leave their hoop? This isn't going to contain their words though...

[Blackcat31]

Thank you for your replies, believe me I try to be on top of it but sometimes it happens in the blink of an eye! We all know how this can happen! Sometimes one simple "NO!" can send the other kid into tears rolling and screaming on the floor. At first it started out as a game between them all and now it's serious business. I tried to discipline them instantly whenever it started acting up - at one point all these kids were in time out ALL. THE. TIME.! For 3/4 it worked and for one it did not :-/ ...but of course, when the one starts it becomes contagious again! I also started questioning myself - should I be discipling children for saying "no?" They starting crying at no's in other sorts of contexts (e.g. Kid A: I want that toy you're playing with. Kid B: No. Kid A: WAHHHHHHHHHH so-and-so said NO! They get a time out!!!!!!" It's difficult to explain to children between the ages of 23 months and 30 months the difference between contexts in which the no is used :confused: I've tried to enforce "we use kind words here!" etc....the one who this is not really working for is the one kid who has the worst expressive and receptive language abilities...he just loves to jostle everyone into a screaming frenzy.

The period between 18 months and 3 years is tough. Toddlers are becoming aware that they are separate individuals from their parents and the other important people in their world. This means that they are eager to assert themselves, communicate their likes and dislikes, and act independently (as much as they can!).

At the same time, they still have limited self-control and are just beginning to learn important skills like waiting, sharing and turn-taking.

As toddlers are also just beginning to use words to communicate, they rely heavily on their actions to “tell” us what they are thinking and feeling.

Like most aspects of development, there is a wide variation among children when it comes to acting out aggressively. Children who are intense and "big reactors" tend to have a more difficult time managing their emotions than children who are by nature more easygoing. Big reactors rely more heavily on using their actions to communicate their strong feelings. This is considered normal and not at all what I would classify as Bully-like behavior.

I believe that in order for a child's actions to be considered bullying, he/she needs to understand and be aware of their actions and the consequences of those actions. I do not believe a toddler has that capability when they themselves are in the process of understanding they are individuals.

I also think a child needs to understand perspective thinking before their actions can be considered a bully-like.

Responding to aggressive behavior... Here are some things to consider
•Where is the behavior happening?
•If it is only happening in one setting, could there be something about that environment (i.e., too crowded, bright, overwhelming, etc.) that is triggering the behavior?
•When does the behavior usually happen? For example, right before naptime, when the child is tired? At times of transition, such as going from one activity to another? These kinds of stressors are common triggers for aggressive behavior.
•What happened right before the child’s challenging behavior? For example, had you just announced it was time to stop playing? Had another child just taken a toy out of his hands?
•Has there been a recent change in their world that is making the child feel upset, out of control, sad, or perhaps less safe and secure overall? Events like switching rooms at child care, moving homes, a new baby or the loss of a pet can make the child feel insecure and therefore less able to control their impulses.

Other important factors to consider:
•Developmental Stage
•Child’s Temperament

To head-off aggressive behavior
•Think prevention. Use what you know about your child to plan ahead
•Give advanced notice of an upcoming change
•Help the child understand her feelings and behavior.

This self-awareness helps him learn to manage his feelings in positive ways. For example, you might say to an older toddler who has a difficult time moving between activities: "It’s hard for you to stop playing and get ready for lunch. Why don’t you pick out a favorite book to read at story time? Or you can play ‘I spy’ while we wash our hands and get ready to eat. Which do you want to do?"

Over time this helps the child learn strategies to cope with situations that are challenging for him. With younger children, put words to their feelings and then redirect them. "You are mad that we need to pick the cars up. But look at this cool ball and how it bounces."

Strategies for Responding to Aggression

As you review the strategies described below, keep in mind that their effectiveness may vary based on both the age and stage of development of your child and on his or her temperament. They are not offered as prescriptions, but ideas that can be adapted to meet the needs of your individual child and family.

•Stay calm
•Recognize the child’s feeling or goal.
•Use words and gestures to communicate your message
•Offer alternatives.
•Try a distraction
•Suggest ways to manage strong emotions
•Have the child take a break

Some aggressive behavior is a typical part of early childhood development but certain behaviors do warrant additional attention when they happen often and continue over time.

Here are some resources for managing aggression in toddlers

http://www.livestrong.com/article/125477-strategies-children-aggressive-behavior/

http://practicalkatie.com/2011/04/23/hitting-biting-and-pushing-tips-for-dealing-with-toddler-aggression/

http://www.babycenter.com/0_aggression-hitting-and-biting_11550.bc

http://www.zerotothree.org/

http://www.baby-medical-questions-and-answers.com/toddler-behavior.html

http://www.education.com/magazine/article/toddler-aggression/

[My3cents]

I also like to make my own play groups. I think it's good for children to expand their horizons. Sometimes older kids end up with a little kid partner, and they can show them how to build or put together a puzzle. Sometimes they end up with someone they never choose to play with, and find out that they can be friends.

If there is prolonged arguing over a toy (it's mine, I had it first), I ask children to bring the toy to me. I hold it close and say that, actually, it is my toy.
But I share with everyone. They usually are and then and then :: and then the arguing is all over, or else I set up turns. On the rare occasion that it doesn't end then, I do put the toy up.

I do this as well. I also tell my kids to GO Play. I say this nicely and sometimes will explain to them its their job to play and its mine to watch out for them and do everything else.