Probably Losing A Child.....Long VENT

[marniewon]

You may have read some of my threads.....one was on a 1yo dcb who would SCREAM through nap, and the other was just plain screaming. Same kid. I explained how frustrated I was because he wouldn't nap, and would cry/whine/scream for most of the day, but that I'd had him since I opened, and was not prepared to term him, unless I just could not find any way to make him happy. Well, I had been talking to mom this past week about his behavior, mostly trying to figure out what she was doing at home, so I could see if I could use anything here to help him.

Mom sent me a text message last night asking if anything that she had told me was working. Sent message back saying that I think it's a phase he's going through, because any time I set him down, he cries. He wants me and only me. And he gets very jealous if I'm paying attention to any other child. The only time in the last month that he had a really good day was last Friday, and he was the only one here. So today she sends another message, saying that she had been talking to a friend of hers who told her basically the same thing - it's a stage. I had told her that after this week, I would only have her child plus one other, since another child will be out for a while because his mom just had a baby, so maybe dcb would be better with just the 2 of them here. She came back with, "yeah, J will be gone, but when he comes back, you will have an infant. So, given that, dh and I have talked about putting him somewhere else where there's more kids his age, or maybe with my dad who is retired, but there's no guarantee that either of those will work". I responded telling her that I wasn't ready to give up on him, and still willing to work with her through this, if she still wanted to, and that we'd miss him if he left. She told me that she would discuss it with dcd and let me know.

First, I've been telling her that her son needs MORE attention and that I can't just drop everything to be at his beck and call, since I do have other children here. So....why on earth would they consider putting him somewhere else where there are MORE kids his age (and probably in the same stage) with the same amount of providers, knowing he needs MORE attention, not less??? I'm wondering what is really going on.

I'm not sure how to feel. Part of me just wants to tell her that if she doesn't think I'm doing a good enough job, or that I can't take good care of her kid, to leave now!! Then another part will miss him. And yet another part feels like I've failed. I've never had anyone quit me before, and not sure how to feel about it. And yet, I really don't want this to drag out for a while.....I feel like they need to make a decision now. I expected a text tonight, letting me know what they were going to do, but I didn't get one. I don't like having to wonder what's going on. And now it's really awkward with mom. When she picked dcb up tonight it was like neither of us knew what to say....instead of the usual easy dialog we've always had. I do not want to deal with awkwardness. Not sure what to do at this point.

[QualiTcare]

she's probably thinking since you have multi-age that's why he's not getting as much attention as he needs. she think if he's in a setting where all the kids are the same age (probably a center) that the teacher has them all doing the same things as a group and they're all getting attention at the same time. OR grandpa would ONLY have him so he'd get one on one. i can't blame her for considering grandpa, but she's mistaken if she thinks a center with a dozen kids is going to be better.

[nannyde]

My guess is they have their fingers crossed for free Grandpa care and are giving you the heads up on that.

I think her "text message last night asking if anything that she had told me was working" was her bait to get the convo on the table.

It sounds suspicious that it's about money. If it is about money she will leave no matter what you offer her (unless you offer free then she will stay).

I would just gear up for a notice and make sure she gives you contracted notice.

[marniewon]

The "attention" that he is needing is for me to ONLY care for him, carry him around, pick him up whenever he wants me to. I can't imagine a center being able to cater to that, especially if there are more than just him there in the same "stage". I was going to point that out to her, but thought why bother? I really don't think that's the motive for pulling him out so I'm just leaving that one alone.

Nan - it seems more like a trust issue than a money issue, and if that's the case, I'll just term them myself. I did make sure to "remind" her of the 2 week notice should she decide to leave. The only thing I'm "offering" her is to keep working with her on him - she's already the lowest paid here, I'm not about to lower it, especially if she doesn't trust me any longer.

I'm a little angry too, that it has come to this after all the months of working with her over ALL his issues. He is by far my most challenging child, and has been almost since day 1. And I've worked through all his issues, and am now finally starting to figure out this one and making some progress with him, and NOW she wants to leave.

If it was the money, or the family aspect, she should have just said, Gpa will watch him for free. I would have been great with that! Are you kidding? That would be awesome for everyone involved! Certainly couldn't fault her for that! If it was the attention issue, she wouldn't have thrown out the "we're thinking of taking him somewhere with more kids" card - because it's so obvious that that would be the worst thing for him! The only thing left is the trust issue. I can't work with someone who doesn't trust me, and no parent should ever leave their child with someone they don't trust. So yes, I'm just waiting for the 2 week notice.

Thanks for your comments - I'm a fairly new provider, and talking to others help me put things in perspective a lot of times.

[nannyde]

I could be wrong about it. It's just a commonly used technique when they are negotiating free care... while they are in the process of working out the details and seeing if the free will actually happen.

They give the heads up that they may be making a change so you know but not for sure. They can also use this as a high negotiation time to get you to either lower your rates or do more for them.. longer hours.. part time highly flexible schedule that works with gpa's "free" offer, more attention whatever.

They very often give an extreme other option (grandpa one to one free or Center one of many and expensive.) This is to throw off the scent of the "i'm going to do what is free as soon as I can get free worked out."

I would be prepared for a switch to part time if he isn't already too. Gpa may do free but not free every day. Figuring that out may be what is stalling them from having a solid discussion about it right now.

[BentleysBands]

sounds to me that hes just spoiled IMO....some kids are more needy than others but the holding issue always baffles me. when a child quiets when picked up then screams when put down, its a spoiled child. IMHO and what i have seen and worked with. some kids will out grow it but others never do. it comes down to what and how much you can mentally handle. i know i cant handle it, the screaming. i will try my best but one person can only do so much kwim?

i don't get where the free stuff is coming from.

[marniewon]

I could be wrong about it. It's just a commonly used technique when they are negotiating free care... while they are in the process of working out the details and seeing if the free will actually happen.

They give the heads up that they may be making a change so you know but not for sure. They can also use this as a high negotiation time to get you to either lower your rates or do more for them.. longer hours.. part time highly flexible schedule that works with gpa's "free" offer, more attention whatever.

They very often give an extreme other option (grandpa one to one free or Center one of many and expensive.) This is to throw off the scent of the "i'm going to do what is free as soon as I can get free worked out."

I would be prepared for a switch to part time if he isn't already too. Gpa may do free but not free every day. Figuring that out may be what is stalling them from having a solid discussion about it right now.

I guess that could be it - you've been at this a lot longer than I have, and I'm sure you've seen/heard it all!

If that's the case, I am not prepared to go to pt with him - with all the nap issues I've had with him, having him gone a few more days a week will just make things worse (and with a relative, one-to-one care, he would be too used to being catered to, and I still cannot do that here, not with other kids in my care). They wouldn't like it anyway. With a drastic change in hours comes a new contract. She was my first client when I opened, and she started at the lowest end of the pay spectrum for my area. With every new family I raised rates to where I wanted to be. So, if they go down to pt and sign my new contract, they will be paying my current prices - $25/day with a 3-day minimum. She's only paying $100 now for the whole week.

I'm really not into the games. If it was a money issue she should have told me. I do not want to sit and wait until they get all their details worked out and make a decision. I really hate this part of the business! I wish I had a waitlist so I could be the one making the decisions, instead of me waiting on them. I guess this whole thing is bothering me more than I thought.

[marniewon]

sounds to me that hes just spoiled IMO....some kids are more needy than others but the holding issue always baffles me. when a child quiets when picked up then screams when put down, its a spoiled child. IMHO and what i have seen and worked with. some kids will out grow it but others never do. it comes down to what and how much you can mentally handle. i know i cant handle it, the screaming. i will try my best but one person can only do so much kwim?

i don't get where the free stuff is coming from.

That's kind of what I thought too, but from what mom has said, they don't carry him around or pick him up at the first whine....but then again, I'm not there, so I don't really know. He also screams/whines/cries if I move him away from something he can't have/touch. He cries if I remove him from breakfast when he throws his food and sippy cup. And I'm right there with you - I can't stand the screaming either. BUT I have dealt with it this far and was willing to continue if I thought I could make some progress.

I think that grandpa wouldn't charge to watch dcb, that's where the free stuff is coming from.

[Lilbutterflie]

Marniewon, I feel for you and I do understand how you are taking this personally. You have done so much to try to help this child, and you feel like the parents either don't trust that you can handle it or they have given up on you.
BUT, I do think you might be taking this too personally. If they didn't trust you, they would've taken him out a long time ago when his issues started. Remember that you BOTH have the same goals here: to help him so that he's not screaming ALL day long! As you mentioned, he's been with you for a long time and the issue is still there. It's NOT your fault, but as parents they have to look at other options as they feel that they have tried everything with you they could.
I get how a center probably will just make things worse, but parents don't always know that!!! I can see how they would think that being around other little ones his age where they all get attention at the same time might help him. As DCM said, it may not work... but you can't blame them for trying other avenues. I really think they are just trying to help their son. I would be heartbroken as a parent if I knew my child was NOT happy and screaming all day.
I applaud you for trying to help this little guy and not giving up! I don't know if I could handle it! This may be a blessing in disguise for you.

[Unregistered]

Honestly, this kind of thing is why I almost never bring parents in to behavior stuff at daycare unless it is a BIG issue that after numerous attempts is resolved. Then I mention it because I am considering terminating and I don't want it to be a shock.

When I do mention things, I do it in a casual way, such as "Oh, K is having a tough time with the new baby! I think she's a little jealous! Poor kiddo! I'm doing A, B, and C to make the transition a bit easier for her." That way if K is a crank monster at home they have an idea. I never, ever email or text with a parent regarding a behavior issue. There is WAY too much room for misunderstanding because we cannot see their face or hear the tone of the conversation.

I NEVER express frustration or give a parent the idea that I am at a loss as to how to handle a situation UNLESS I am going to terminate.

Then I say, "K is having a tough time with Baby C. We have done this, this and this, but she is still struggling. She threw a toy at Baby C...I'm sure you understand that this situation needs to be resolved ASAP."

3kidsmom

[Live and Learn]

MARNIEWON...I am sorry that this is going on....A center would be horrible for this child. It sounds like the parents don't appreciate all that you have done to help this little guy.

[nannyde]

I guess that could be it - you've been at this a lot longer than I have, and I'm sure you've seen/heard it all!

If that's the case, I am not prepared to go to pt with him - with all the nap issues I've had with him, having him gone a few more days a week will just make things worse (and with a relative, one-to-one care, he would be too used to being catered to, and I still cannot do that here, not with other kids in my care). They wouldn't like it anyway. With a drastic change in hours comes a new contract. She was my first client when I opened, and she started at the lowest end of the pay spectrum for my area. With every new family I raised rates to where I wanted to be. So, if they go down to pt and sign my new contract, they will be paying my current prices - $25/day with a 3-day minimum. She's only paying $100 now for the whole week.

I'm really not into the games. If it was a money issue she should have told me. I do not want to sit and wait until they get all their details worked out and make a decision. I really hate this part of the business! I wish I had a waitlist so I could be the one making the decisions, instead of me waiting on them. I guess this whole thing is bothering me more than I thought.

I could be wrong about it so don't get too ahead on it. Just sit back and see what they do. It's part of learning the biz. You can get to the point where you can see what they are going to do before they think to do it. I'm not there to read their minds or their body language.. voice inflections so I'm just processing what you are saying based on what I have seen in my career.

Why do you think this: dh and I have talked about putting him somewhere else where there's more kids his age, means a center? Is it possible she's just looking at other home day cares and has found one with more age mates? Weird... since he wants his own adult and having more of little hims running around would be harder not easier on him... but whatever.

I'm with 3kidsmom. I don't discuss stuff like this with parents. I deal with their transitions pretty much on my own. I don't mind screamers so this wouldn't phase me. I believe every baby should speak their little baby minds and share their little baby feelins. Talk to the Nan little spud muffin. :: So I have very little crying here. They usually quit it after a couple of days. Too much goin on to spend your day wailing.

[marniewon]

Why do you think this: dh and I have talked about putting him somewhere else where there's more kids his age, means a center? Is it possible she's just looking at other home day cares and has found one with more age mates? Weird... since he wants his own adult and having more of little hims running around would be harder not easier on him... but whatever.

Here in MI a family daycare home can only have 2 children under 18mos. I have that. I have this dcb (13mo), another dcb (16mos) and another dcb just turned 2. Group homes can have 4 under 18 mos so I guess she could find a home with 3 other playmates, but the chances of them all being his age (or any closer than what I have) aren't great. I'm sure they are out there though. She'll be paying a lot more too - like I said in an earlier post, I am charging her at the very bottom of the pay spectrum for my area. I know homes in my area that are charging almost double what she's paying here.

I'm with 3kidsmom. I don't discuss stuff like this with parents. I deal with their transitions pretty much on my own. I don't mind screamers so this wouldn't phase me. I believe every baby should speak their little baby minds and share their little baby feelins. Talk to the Nan little spud muffin. :: So I have very little crying here. They usually quit it after a couple of days. Too much goin on to spend your day wailing.

I don't normally discuss behavior issues either, unless it's something that needs to be reinforced at home. I don't consider the non-napping behavioral though. The only reason I brought it up was to ask what she did at home because everything I was trying wasn't working. I was very matter of fact about it, saying that he is not napping well in the pm and he is very tired and fussy because of it, then tried to brainstorm w/ mom about what I can do differently (what she does at home). I never even mentioned the screaming. I didn't figure there's anything she can do about it from work, so it wasn't worth mentioning. That, and I know it has a lot to do with how tired he is, and if we could get the naps straightened around, that would cut down on the screaming. Some.

Nan - do you carry kids around all day? Because that is about the only thing that will stop this one's screaming. He does play, and he plays well, but when he wants to be picked up, he wants me to drop everything and carry him around for a while. Even if I could do that, I won't. I like the cuddles here and there, but he's not glued to me - he's a healthy baby who needs to be playing and exploring.

[nannyde]

Nan - do you carry kids around all day? Because that is about the only thing that will stop this one's screaming. He does play, and he plays well, but when he wants to be picked up, he wants me to drop everything and carry him around for a while. Even if I could do that, I won't. I like the cuddles here and there, but he's not glued to me - he's a healthy baby who needs to be playing and exploring.

I carry newborns in a snuggly for the first week or so I get them. I love me some newborn babies.


Disclaimer: Newborn babies are the exception to the following. Once the kid can flip over then we start weaning them off of the hold me/walk me/rock me. Once they can manage their heads up off the floor then we move to more of a gravity based day. Make friends with gravity and make your own fun.


I do not use motion or rhythm to solve crying. I don't use swings, rocking, bouncing, patting, or carrying a child around to solve crying.

When I have crying children I make sure they are fed, have an excellent schedule available to them for sleep/rest/activity, have plenty of age appropriate toys, and good lovins. If they are crying even with all of that then I stay out of their crying.

I have very little crying here. It's so rare that when they cry it startles me in a panic kind of way. If one of the kids under two start crying there is something really wrong. My kids over two don't cry. I can't even think of the last time one of them cried. hmmm I'll have to think about that one.

The newbie babies (older babies like eight months or so) cry but it only takes a few day care days to get them to go into our ways. In the meantime we just hang on and ride it out with them. We hold them but ALWAYS sitting on the floor and NEVER walking around with them other than getting them from point A to point B.

I have an amazing set up and a full time staff assistant with a low adult to child ratio though. I've been at this for a while so I have a LOT of resources to make every little piece of this go well. I have a LOT of space too.

I didn't have that when I started so I have been where many of you ladies are with the cry kids and it was difficult. I learned along the way to never use motion to solve crying. Motion solving begets more crying.

It's really important to stay super calm when you have a kid crying when everything in their world is wonderful but they still don't like it. I know that sounds silly but it's so important to send the message to the baby that you are calm and that you expect them to be calm. Calm assertive leadership is felt by the tinest of the babies. They are like little puppies... they can sense when their leader is off kilter. So even if you have to fake it stay calm and put a plain look on your face. I let them know I'm not agreeing with their instability and I'm not going to be a part of it. I give them the body language that shows them that I'm not a part of it.

When you touch them be sort of floppy with your fingers and hands. Light superficial touching is so very calming. Try to swirl their bellies with your fingertips from side to side. I do that over their onesies and they settle down pretty quickly. Do this with their hair and with their hands and wrists. Send them the message of calm with everything you do and they will calm down.


If they are wailing for no reason other than they want to be picked up and carried I just drop to the floor and offer them my lap. I turn them away from me and have their backs melt into my stomach. Then I just hold them and fiddle with their hair, their fingers, etc.

Pretty soon I bore the bejeezus out of them and off they go ::

It's hard to explain but it really works. Just stay calm and if you have to... put them in a safe place where they can have some me time and fuss it out.
If you start to get tense or it gets to you don't hesitate to separate the baby from you into a safe place. You should always have an escape plan to regroup. I know some States like California don't allow this but if I lived there I would be breaking the law. It's VERY important to have a place to put a child so that you can regroup and rethink. If this was taught in our classes and required in our State regs we would have a lot less burnt out providers and a lot less abused kids.

[Unregistered]

You didn't fail...

You may have read some of my threads.....one was on a 1yo dcb who would SCREAM through nap, and the other was just plain screaming. Same kid. I explained how frustrated I was because he wouldn't nap, and would cry/whine/scream for most of the day, but that I'd had him since I opened, and was not prepared to term him, unless I just could not find any way to make him happy. Well, I had been talking to mom this past week about his behavior, mostly trying to figure out what she was doing at home, so I could see if I could use anything here to help him.

Mom sent me a text message last night asking if anything that she had told me was working. Sent message back saying that I think it's a phase he's going through, because any time I set him down, he cries. He wants me and only me. And he gets very jealous if I'm paying attention to any other child. The only time in the last month that he had a really good day was last Friday, and he was the only one here. So today she sends another message, saying that she had been talking to a friend of hers who told her basically the same thing - it's a stage. I had told her that after this week, I would only have her child plus one other, since another child will be out for a while because his mom just had a baby, so maybe dcb would be better with just the 2 of them here. She came back with, "yeah, J will be gone, but when he comes back, you will have an infant. So, given that, dh and I have talked about putting him somewhere else where there's more kids his age, or maybe with my dad who is retired, but there's no guarantee that either of those will work". I responded telling her that I wasn't ready to give up on him, and still willing to work with her through this, if she still wanted to, and that we'd miss him if he left. She told me that she would discuss it with dcd and let me know.

First, I've been telling her that her son needs MORE attention and that I can't just drop everything to be at his beck and call, since I do have other children here. So....why on earth would they consider putting him somewhere else where there are MORE kids his age (and probably in the same stage) with the same amount of providers, knowing he needs MORE attention, not less??? I'm wondering what is really going on.

I'm not sure how to feel. Part of me just wants to tell her that if she doesn't think I'm doing a good enough job, or that I can't take good care of her kid, to leave now!! Then another part will miss him. And yet another part feels like I've failed. I've never had anyone quit me before, and not sure how to feel about it. And yet, I really don't want this to drag out for a while.....I feel like they need to make a decision now. I expected a text tonight, letting me know what they were going to do, but I didn't get one. I don't like having to wonder what's going on. And now it's really awkward with mom. When she picked dcb up tonight it was like neither of us knew what to say....instead of the usual easy dialog we've always had. I do not want to deal with awkwardness. Not sure what to do at this point.

Some kids take longer to get past stages like the one that you're describing. It isn't going to be any better in a center, in fact it will most likely be rougher on the little guy. His parents probably haven't really thought it through yet. Bigger classes are not the answer for clingy kids. I've worked in daycare centers and I am currently a family daycare provider so I've seen both sides of the situation.

You may want to consider telling the parents that you need to know if they plan to pull him so that you can plan accordingly. Make sure that they understand that you require a 2 week notice and give them a date to decide by. You need to be able to advertise his spot if they are switching to another daycare provider. I've had parents do that same thing to me in the past and they've used the "we might be looking for another daycare...." and it has always come down to one of two things: paying less money or finding a provider who will do things the way that the parents want them done.

I don't deal well with wishy-washy parents. My new approach is that if parents tell me that they're looking around for a different daycare, then I tell them that I'll be advertising their spot.