Kansas Group License

[Jack Sprat]

I asked our food program lady about this a few months ago. I was thinking of hiring an assistant but, if I did so then I would have renew lic. early and do it as a group lic. She said it was a good idea if I was going to have SEVERAL days a month where I would require an assistant. She never once said she had to be present ALL the time.

A provider here in town has an assistant and I know she doesn't use him all the time. He works part time elsewhere as well. I think she is wrong. Keep pushing the issue!

[Annalee]

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[jenn]

I agree. What the licensor is telling you, and what mine told me, is not consistent with what the regulations say. My situation resolved itself as a different kiddo left, so I didn't have to research/fight this any more. I hope you find out that you can follow what the regulations say, not what you are being told. Good luck!

[Unregistered]

Over a period of years, I had three different licensing workers tell me that I could not switch between licenses day-by-day. I could call them up and ask to be switched from a group license with 8 under-SA to a group license with 10 under-SA, but could not have an
"8" group every day except Wednesday, and have a "10" group on Wednesday.

Last year, another new licensor and he said I could switch at will between these two licenses. No need to call, and I could do M-W-F with one group and T-Th with the other, no problem, literally switching back and forth every single day.

I verified this with my food program person, figuring she would have to know.

And I can't believe what these people have cost me over the years. It's irritating to not be able to get correct information from those who are supposed to know. And hold my livelihood in their hands.

[originalkat]

She is wrong. I have a Kansas Group License and have NEVER had 2 providers.

[craftymissbeth]

She is wrong. I have a Kansas Group License and have NEVER had 2 providers.

Almost all of the daycares in my town are group daycares and I know of two that only have one provider. I've called her twice and it get her voicemail both times. I'm going to be upset if she leaves me stewing all weekend

[originalkat]

I am licensed as a Large Group provider (there are 8 different licensing categories here) and I can operate on ANY lower level license capacity I want but must meet the ratio requirements for whatever level I am operating on for THAT DAY.

Hope that makes sense.

I "think" it is exactly what you are trying to do.... I keep the larger license because it's easier to just have it when I need it verses being limited to only have one particular age group.

I don't always need my assistant/helper present. ONLY if I have a particular age group of kids.

Yes, I am a KS group provider and I can go "down" to a regular license without any changes on my license. You just cant go "up" to a group license without changing the license.

[originalkat]

Almost all of the daycares in my town are group daycares and I know of two that only have one provider. I've called her twice and it get her voicemail both times. I'm going to be upset if she leaves me stewing all weekend

When my licensing lady told me wrong I emailed her with the copy and pasted regulation in black and white so she could see it. THEN she changed her story and suddenly I was in compliance (not regarding the group license thing--something else).
If she does not agree after that I would call the KDHE in Topeka and speak to someone there regarding the discrepancy.

[craftymissbeth]

She finally called me back, but now insists that if there's only one provider then all children have to be older than 2 1/2... NOT what the regs say.

Also, she says I still have to have some person who is my second provider and that they are required to have 5 hours of inservice training every year. This is also not what the regs say. Am I just reading this wrong? To me, it says that whoever the licensee is is the primary care provider... basically anyone else would be an assistant. The annual training says the PRIMARY CARE PROVIDER has to have the 5 hours.

I'm not paying for someone's inservice hours when that person doesn't even exist... and even if they did I'm not paying for it when I have no intention of using them as a second provider.

Annual professional development training requirements. In each licensure year, each primary care provider shall meet one of the following requirements:
(1) Complete five clock-hours of professional development training;
(2) maintain current accreditation by the national association for family child care; or
(3) hold a current child development associate credential.

Care provider” and “provider” mean an individual who cares for and supervises children in a facility and has responsibility for the health, safety, and well-being of children, including the following:
(1) A primary care provider;
(2) an individual who is at least 16 years of age and who is working in the facility; and
(3) a substitute.

Primary care provider” means an applicant with a temporary permit, a licensee, or the designee of an applicant with a temporary permit or a licensee. Each applicant with a temporary permit, each licensee, and each designee shall be at least 18 years of age and shall meet the requirements for a primary care provider specified in K.A.R. 28-4-114a.

[jenn]

What a mess! I seem to have a different licensor with each visit, and they all seem to interpret the rules in a different way.

I did have to call Topeka over a playground discrepancy and they were so very helpful. If you keep having trouble, I would definitely call them for clarification.

I homeschool my daughter during nap time, and either my mom or husband take over daycare during that time. According to 2 licensors, they both have to have full provider qualifications, not just sub requirements. It doesn't matter that I am there with them. The reasoning was that since they provide care on a regular basis, they are considered providers, not subs. They had to take the "initial 15 hours" required to be a provider and have to get 5 hours per year.

[craftymissbeth]

What a mess! I seem to have a different licensor with each visit, and they all seem to interpret the rules in a different way.

I did have to call Topeka over a playground discrepancy and they were so very helpful. If you keep having trouble, I would definitely call them for clarification.

I homeschool my daughter during nap time, and either my mom or husband take over daycare during that time. According to 2 licensors, they both have to have full provider qualifications, not just sub requirements. It doesn't matter that I am there with them. The reasoning was that since they provide care on a regular basis, they are considered providers, not subs. They had to take the "initial 15 hours" required to be a provider and have to get 5 hours per year.

And the way I'm reading the regs your dh and mom shouldn't be required to do the 5 hours per year. They ARENT primary care providers, they're just providers... and they're not required to do that.

But it guess what's written isn't REALLY what we're required to do... it's really whatever the licensor we happen to get thinks things should be. If they stick to what they're saying I'm going to call Topeka for sure.

[originalkat]

In regards to her insistence that all children must be 2 1/2:
In the Group Ratio table it says this:
*A second provider shall be present when the number of children exceeds the maximum number allowed for one provider. See Table I. (Table 1 is the regular license).
It does not say you need a second PRIMARY Provider.
=========================================
Here are the definitions of the 3 categories of providers:
“Primary care provider” means an applicant with a temporary permit, a licensee, or the designee of an applicant with a temporary permit or a licensee. Each applicant with a temporary permit, each licensee, and each designee shall be at least 18 years of age and shall meet the requirements for a primary care provider specified in K.A.R. 28-4-114a.

“Care provider” and “provider” mean an individual who cares for and supervises children in a facility and has responsibility for the health, safety, and well-being of children, including the following:

(1) A primary care provider;
(2) an individual who is at least 16 years of age and who is working in the facility;
and
(3) a substitute.
“Substitute” means an individual who supervises children in the temporary absence or extended absence of the primary care provider and who meets the following requirements:

In this section is specifically states that a Provider has different requirements than a Primary Care Provider.
(1) In the temporary absence of the primary care provider, the substitute shall be at least 16 years of age and shall meet all of the requirements for a providerspecified in K.A.R. 28-4-114a (a)(2), (b)(4)(C), and (c).
===============================================
So your substitute OR 2nd Provider must have the following:
(2) Each applicant, each applicant with a temporary permit, and each licensee shall provide orientation to each individual who will be caring for children about the policies and practices of the facility, including duties and responsibilities for the care and supervision of children. Each provider shall complete the orientation before the provider is given sole responsibility for the care and supervision of children. The orientation shall include the following:

(A) Licensing regulations;
(B) the policies and practices of the facility, including emergency procedures,
behavior management, and discipline;
(C) the schedule of daily activities;
(D) care and supervision of children in care;
(E) health and safety practices; and
(F) confidentiality.
And
(4) The health and safety training shall include the following:

(A) At least two clock-hours of training in recognizing the signs of child abuse
or neglect, including prevention of abusive head trauma, and the reporting
of suspected child abuse and neglect;
(B) at least two clock-hours of training in basic child development; and
(C) at least two clock-hours of training on safe sleep practices and sudden
infant death syndrome if the individual will be caring for children under
12 months of age.
And
(c) Pediatric first aid and pediatric cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR) certifications. Each applicant, each applicant with a temporary permit, each licensee, and each provider shall obtain certification in pediatric first aid and pediatric CPR as specified in this subsection.
(1) Each applicant and each applicant with a temporary permit shall obtain the certifications not later than 30 calendar days after submitting an application for a license.
(2) Each provider shall obtain the certifications before the date of employment or not later than 30 calendar days after the date of employment.
(3) Each licensee whose license was issued before the effective date of this regulation shall obtain the certifications within one calendar year after the effective date of this regulation. Each provider who was employed in the facility before the effective date of this regulation shall obtain the certifications within one calendar year after the effective date of this regulation.

I am sorry you are having such a hard time with this.:confused:
I really would give Topeka a call. I think it would save you a lot of frustration.:hug:

[NoMoreJuice!]

Nope.

Sorry, I didn't read through so someone else may have answered this, but she is 100% WRONG. I've had a group license for over a year and I've never had a second provider until now. When only one provider is present, you have to follow the capacity table for one provider.

Is she on crack? I know you already know how angry it makes me when surveyors go rogue and decide their laws override the state's laws. GRRR.

[craftymissbeth]

Thank you, originalkat, for taking the time to type all of that out. It's so much easier to see it all spelled out that way.

nomorejuice, I know you've had a hell of a time with your nazi surveyor.

The lady I'm directly dealing with is fairly new, but she's consulting with someone who has been a surveyor for a very, very long time. They're the ONLY surveyors in our county (and my county is the largest size wise in the state)... so I think she's used to everyone just doing what she says with little question.

This is how I provide for my family. I'm not going to bend so easily.

[jenn]

Sounds like Kansas needs to train the licensors a little more! I think they each have their own version of the regulations and that's what they want you to follow. I have a pool that is never ever used for daycare. We have a fence taller than required around it. No one has ever had a problem with it. The person I had last time told me I had to follow all the pool regulations even though we did not use it for daycare. I am not testing the water daily and recording it for a pool that is not even daycare accessible. Topeka had to get involved. The lady there was so nice. She said that there are some wonderful licensing people that are truly helpful and that is what there job is, to help us. She said that too many of them think of themselves as the daycare police and rather than helping, just go around trying to find how to get you in trouble. Craziness.