Long Timers (Veterans) and Changes in Child Care

[Blackcat31]

What do you define as programs that provide "care" and what do you define as a program with an "educator"?

I can see how legislature would maybe allow two separate groups if divided into "center" and "family child care home" categories each with their own set of standards so that a family child care home can have a chance at getting a high score however I don't see how they'd go for "care" as a category that could get a better score if all they provide is care.

I mean I'm a FCC provider and I'm getting an education (12 units) and have a child-led curriculum, do observations, am familiar with FCCERS and I couldn't even get higher than a 2 in my state even if I got my degree. I would need to take CLASS training, use their assessment tools and get assessed by them myself ($$$), have a certified FCCERS assessor evaluate my environment ($$) and it seems that apart from the education aspect of it we as FCC providers are set up to fail. We are at a huge disadvantage because we have limited income compared to a center yet we must pay the same fees that they do for these materials and assessments.

I have a provider friend who is a care provider. NOT an educator. (I know, children learn naturally through play) but she is one of those grandmotherly types.

Would spend ALL day rocking a child and catering to their specific individual needs. She keeps her enrollment really low so she can snuggle and just love them all whenever.

Lunch is what they want (healthy of course) but pretty much whenever. No planned time.

She keeps kids overnight, takes them up town and genuinely makes them a member of the family. He DS does snow plowing and handyman services for their families. She potty trains them too. Buys clothing and other things for them like a grandmother would do.

She invites them to dinner at her house, is truly a member of their extended family too.

She has no contract, (only what our state requires we put in print) and often makes deals where she can.

She has NO idea what DAP means or what ECIP means.

She is the glorified babysitter. (and loves it)

Does NONE of what I do.

I don't know how to further elaborate on that... She has no education or any training in early childhood other than our required CPR, First Aide and food program trainings.

She has no desire to "teach" the kids anything. She simply loves and cares for them.

I know we all do that but like I said, I am having a hard time actually defining how she is different....but I *think* you get my point. If not, let me know...I can try harder... I'm typing with one hand and paying attention with only part of my brain today...

[Annalee]

What do you define as programs that provide "care" and what do you define as a program with an "educator"?

I can see how legislature would maybe allow two separate groups if divided into "center" and "family child care home" categories each with their own set of standards so that a family child care home can have a chance at getting a high score however I don't see how they'd go for "care" as a category that could get a better score if all they provide is care.

I mean I'm a FCC provider and I'm getting an education (12 units) and have a child-led curriculum, do observations, am familiar with FCCERS and I couldn't even get higher than a 2 in my state even if I got my degree. I would need to take CLASS training, use their assessment tools and get assessed by them myself ($$$), have a certified FCCERS assessor evaluate my environment ($$) and it seems that apart from the education aspect of it we as FCC providers are set up to fail. We are at a huge disadvantage because we have limited income compared to a center yet we must pay the same fees that they do for these materials and assessments.

QRIS is different in my state in that FCC and Center care can reach the same plateau, but the components need to carry the same amount of weight. Assessment trumps everything and I consider that unfair. It causes providers to NOT want to move forward with the other components because the FCCERS-R is not attainable for everyone. I generally score well but all it would take is a non-mobile infant or to stay outside longer than an hour a day to fail the assessment. I know that sounds "silly" but FCCERS-R dictates how much accessibility each child should have to certain materials. If you stay outside too long you have to meet this material-count outside as well. If the child is non-mobile, you must bring these materials to the child. We are human and may forget on this day to bring a science toy to an infant. See my point???

[MarinaVanessa]

Assessment trumps everything and I consider that unfair. It causes providers to NOT want to move forward with the other components because the FCCERS-R is not attainable for everyone.

I suppose for me the FCCERS part of it all is the EASY part (okay maybe not easy, but easier) because I can just pick out materials that cover several domains for example babies ... I can get a cloth book that has color photos of animals with some print and I just covered science, softness, language and then count the pages and I covered math.

What gets me is the CLASS assessments. We are supposed to create elaborate assessments for the children PLUS be assessed ourselves (interactions with our children) by a certified CLASS assessor on top of the FCCERS and if there is any bickering, fighting, arguing or yelling you can pretty much call it a fail. These assessments are all based on how we interact with children, don'y say don't or no, did you redirect, did you anticipate conflict, be proactive not reactive, stay positive, be consistent, stay upbeat, did you use a friendly tone of voice, were you clear and concise with your directions, are your expectations clear, did you smile. don't use "I like it when...", only use fact not your opinion ... phew, that's exhausting. Not to mention that it costs hundreds of dollars for them.

I don't know how to further elaborate on that... She has no education or any training in early childhood other than our required CPR, First Aide and food program trainings.

I gotcha

[Annalee]

I suppose for me the FCCERS part of it all is the EASY part (okay maybe not easy, but easier) because I can just pick out materials that cover several domains for example babies ... I can get a cloth book that has color photos of animals with some print and I just covered science, softness, language and then count the pages and I covered math.

What gets me is the CLASS assessments. We are supposed to create elaborate assessments for the children PLUS be assessed ourselves (interactions with our children) by a certified CLASS assessor on top of the FCCERS and if there is any bickering, fighting, arguing or yelling you can pretty much call it a fail. These assessments are all based on how we interact with children, don'y say don't or no, did you redirect, did you anticipate conflict, be proactive not reactive, stay positive, be consistent, stay upbeat, did you use a friendly tone of voice, were you clear and concise with your directions, are your expectations clear, did you smile. don't use "I like it when...", only use fact not your opinion ... phew, that's exhausting. Not to mention that it costs hundreds of dollars for them.



I gotcha

FCCERS-R divides the ages for us into below 12 mos, 12 to 30 mos and 30 mos to 5 yrs. Some material do count for both but some do not. It is exhausting to me. We have to talk, talk, talk that day and hope we cover all the bases of what the assessor needs to hear. AND THE MONEY OUGHT TO BE ENOUGH FOR THE STATE TO RECONSIDER QRIS.

[MarinaVanessa]

FCCERS-R divides the ages for us into below 12 mos, 12 to 30 mos and 30 mos to 5 yrs. Some material do count for both but some do not. It is exhausting to me. We have to talk, talk, talk that day and hope we cover all the bases of what the assessor needs to hear. AND THE MONEY OUGHT TO BE ENOUGH FOR THE STATE TO RECONSIDER QRIS.

Yep, FCCERS is the same throughout all states so that's a plus. It's not based on someone's interpretation like licensing is and I have clear expectations of what I need to do. And don't get me wrong, I think FCCERS is hard to meet, I'm not saying it's a piece a cake, just easier than the CLASS assessments.

And to be clear, the assessments for CLASS is what costs hundreds of dollars and from what I understand WE as providers have to pay for that while our FCCERS assessments are paid for by the state as long as we are enrolled in QRIS.

[Annalee]

Yep, FCCERS is the same throughout all states so that's a plus. It's not based on someone's interpretation like licensing is and I have clear expectations of what I need to do. And don't get me wrong, I think FCCERS is hard to meet, I'm not saying it's a piece a cake, just easier than the CLASS assessments.

And to be clear, the assessments for CLASS is what costs hundreds of dollars and from what I understand WE as providers have to pay for that while our FCCERS assessments are paid for by the state as long as we are enrolled in QRIS.

We get NO choice of enrollment....it is a state LAW. We are doing the FCCERS revised version and have been for 4 years now. We started with the original FCCERS. I feel the perception comes in with the assessor. Inconsistencies from daycare to daycare year to year are astronomical. It is one and done and the appeal process is worthless. It is provider word against the assessor. I will have my annual assessment again next week and I have ulcers, literally, from it. I have faith in the assessment anchors whom I have worked with, BUT the trickle-down effect to the actual assessors doesn't set well with me. Assessors take their authority too far and chew you up and spit you out! I am so sorry MV, but I tried to like QRIS when it originally come into place but I just can't now! When I get those scores back even though I score well there is always something written there that hurts/cuts to the bone.

[Angelsj]

I think that QRIS should allow TWO separate and distinct groups.

Care providers and educators.

In my state, those that provide care can't earn more than 1 maaaybe 2 stars.

Those that have a degree, pretty much get 4 (max) stars immediately.

I think that if they allowed, rated and supported the two separate groups as two separate groups, EVERYONE would benefit.

Most particularly, the children.

[Sunchimes]

I've just been doing this for 3 years, but my mom kept kids when I was growing up, if you want an historic perspective. This would have been from the early 1960s until about 1970 or so. She was a babysitter. There was no licensing, no contract, no supervision of any kind. I guess that if a child had been seriously injured someone would have come to check, but it never happened.

Someone in the neighborhood, or a friend of a friend would call and ask if she could keep their kids. She usually just had 1 or 2, but I know that once she had a sibling group of 4 during the summer.

She didn't do anything special in the house, except for having a port-a-crib if there was a baby. There were no special toys that I recall. The kids played outside with the rest of the kids in the neighborhood. If they were little, we were expected to keep an eye on them while we were outside, much as we all did with all the little brothers and sisters that were always around. The kids were treated just like all of the other kids in the neighborhood.

The best I recall, Mom charged either $10 or $15 dollars a week, per child.

We once kept the little girl next door. Dad travelled a lot and Mom enjoyed going out after work. After a few times when she called and said she would be late, and didn't show up until very late, Mom made a new rule. At 5:30, Mom was off duty and I took over at the rate of 50¢ an hour. It worked well. I made money, the little girl's Mom could stay out as long as she needed, and Mom was off duty at a decent time. I took that kid everywhere. She even spent evenings sitting in the gym while I had drill team practice at night. Once, she went with me on a date.

Even though this sounds awful, the kids were loved, safe, and cared for as if they were family. I know there were bad ones, but for the most part, they were like my mom, at least in our town.

[Angelsj]

I have a provider friend who is a care provider. NOT an educator. (I know, children learn naturally through play) but she is one of those grandmotherly types.

Would spend ALL day rocking a child and catering to their specific individual needs. She keeps her enrollment really low so she can snuggle and just love them all whenever.

Lunch is what they want (healthy of course) but pretty much whenever. No planned time.

She keeps kids overnight, takes them up town and genuinely makes them a member of the family. He DS does snow plowing and handyman services for their families. She potty trains them too. Buys clothing and other things for them like a grandmother would do.

She invites them to dinner at her house, is truly a member of their extended family too.

She has no contract, (only what our state requires we put in print) and often makes deals where she can.

She has NO idea what DAP means or what ECIP means.

She is the glorified babysitter. (and loves it)

Does NONE of what I do.

I don't know how to further elaborate on that... She has no education or any training in early childhood other than our required CPR, First Aide and food program trainings.

She has no desire to "teach" the kids anything. She simply loves and cares for them.

I know we all do that but like I said, I am having a hard time actually defining how she is different....but I *think* you get my point. If not, let me know...I can try harder... I'm typing with one hand and paying attention with only part of my brain today...

This is a fair description of what I do. Not exactly, but the philosophy is pretty close. I do understand DAP, etc, I have a policy book and I do teach...a bit, but mostly, I let them be.
We cuddle, snuggle, I wear babies and rock them to sleep. I buy diapers and keep kids overnight. I buy clothes and toys based on a particular child's interests and needs. I potty train (sort of...), and only nap those that need one. (We do have a rest break.)

And I absolutely agree with you that the ideas should be separate. And that each type should be supported for what they offer. My parents appreciate what I have to offer and the mellow atmosphere that allows their kids to play long, and deep. The thing is, I have always been straight with my licensor, and she LOVES me.

[Annalee]

This is a fair description of what I do. Not exactly, but the philosophy is pretty close. I do understand DAP, etc, I have a policy book and I do teach...a bit, but mostly, I let them be.
We cuddle, snuggle, I wear babies and rock them to sleep. I buy diapers and keep kids overnight. I buy clothes and toys based on a particular child's interests and needs. I potty train (sort of...), and only nap those that need one. (We do have a rest break.)

And I absolutely agree with you that the ideas should be separate. And that each type should be supported for what they offer. My parents appreciate what I have to offer and the mellow atmosphere that allows their kids to play long, and deep. The thing is, I have always been straight with my licensor, and she LOVES me.

There are many ways to provide quality child care and each parent chooses what that quality will be. I appreciate the confidence you have in your program. Obviously, the parents chose YOU!

This is where I feel voluntary QRIS would work as well! Child Care Providers can then choose their professional path and how far they would go with quality whether it be through training, workshops, education, etc. LET THE PROVIDERS CHOOSE! Do not let the state/QRIS DICTATE whom/what we will be! It is a LAW here that we complete the QRIS process annually.....I feel this is WRONG! But I guess you all already knew that! ::::::

[Angelsj]

When you first started:
What was child care like?
If we don't count family care (I started watching cousins overnight at 11) or babysitting as a teen, I have been at this for 30 years. I was either too naive to realize I should be licensed or it was not required in OKC in the 80s. I watched whatever family needed the care, advertised in the paper and through word of mouth. I was always full and often had kids overnights or even for days at a time. One family dropped their dd off on Monday mornings and picked her up on Friday evenings.
I took her to doctor appointments, picked up her WIC and took her everywhere I went. At times, there were 12-20 kids, and no one ever batted an eye.

What about 20 years ago? 1994, hmm. We were in Kansas, and the requirements were minimal. You were "registered" by sending in paperwork, and I don't think anyone ever visited. There were some regulations, but they were generally ignored. Again, word of mouth, and I never lacked for clients.

10 years ago? 2004 Regulation and licensing were coming into play. I had 7 kids at home of my own by then, and a small home, so I remained unlicensed and just cared for one family at a time. I knew of the licensing regulations but didn't pay a ton of attention to them.

5 years ago? Oh the hoops. It may be the fact that I have flown under the radar for so long, but it seems to me there is a lot of stuff to deal with. I am aware it could be worse, but it seems like a lot of rules and regulations with very little value for the trouble.

What are your thoughts on the changes in child development, child care philosophies and trends? See my other post. I think we are going downhill fast. Children are shuttling between parents who have abdicated anything remotely like parenting, and providers who are being forced into educating little people in ways that are not natural to their learning styles or abilities.

We are starting to see the problems in the behaviors in schools but these kids are going to continue to get less and less from the "curriculums" being foisted on us all, as they become more stunted in the development that is gained from simply being a child. It is a huge experiment in child development that is going to doom this generation. Luckily there are a large contingent of providers who KNOW this is not right and are quietly working to give the kids the care they really need.

[Annalee]

Luckily there are a large contingent of providers who KNOW this is not right and are quietly working to give the kids the care they really need.

I call it being "crafty" while playing the QRIS game. The only choice I have right now!

[blandino]

We have been open for 10 years, so I am not sure how much of a "veteran" that makes us - but we will provide our answers.

When you first started:
What was child care like? Childcare was much more relaxed. I am not sure if that was strictly related to our clientele or us being beginners or the childcare climate as a whole. I feel like the parents were looking for a home environment for their children during the day. Over the years we have changed from a home-like environment to a center like home. I happen to feel like that change was initiated by us, and seeing what clients in our area were looking for, and how to be the "best" locally, and demand the higher rates in our area.

How difficult was it to find clients/get started? Not horribly difficult. Our house backed up to the local elementary school, and we were friendly with the school secretary, so our name was given out frequently.


Did you have licensing regulations? What was that like? Relaxed? Strict? Licensing regulations have pretty much stayed the same. Honestly, the biggest changes have been when we have a change in licensors. Their interpretation and implementation of the rules, are the biggest change. In 10 years we have had 4 licensors. In my state there were a couple issues of children dying from abuse in child care, so while only a few of the DHS regulations have changed, they have become very CYA about the licensing process/complaints process, so that IF that were to happen again - that no blame could fall back on them. They have changed a lot of background check regulations.

What about 20 years ago?
10 years ago?
5 years ago?

What are your thoughts on the changes in child development, child care philosophies and trends? I think the emphasis on daycare providers to take on parental responsibilities is very troublesome. I have some parents who work on nothing while at home with their child. They leave it up to daycare to work on manners, table manners, self-help skills, etc. I feel like this is caused by the increased demand for time at work, and a busier, more hectic life outside of work. Parents are so busy/preoccupied that they don't have/make the time to work on these things and then during the few hours a week they see their kids - they don't want to have to be the mean,strict,serious parent.

I also think the attitude that daycare is good for kids, is relatively new. That somehow the separation of parents and children is beneficial. We had one member here who had a relative say "My kids go to daycare, so that they can do their thing while we do ours". I feel like this attitude is really prevalent with my clients. I do think it is important that preschool children get exposure to adults other than their parents - but I don't think that the "socialization" that parents push all the time, is really that necessary. There are other ways to socialize your baby besides leaving them in daycare 50 hours a week. I think as a whole, this is a way to make parents feels less guilty about leaving a baby for 50 hours a week. I have a DCM who calls daycare school for her 8 month old. It makes it sound like you are doing something beneficial, instead of leaving your child.

[cheerfuldom]

We have been open for 10 years, so I am not sure how much of a "veteran" that makes us - but we will provide our answers.

When you first started:
What was child care like? Childcare was much more relaxed. I am not sure if that was strictly related to our clientele or us being beginners or the childcare climate as a whole. I feel like the parents were looking for a home environment for their children during the day. Over the years we have changed from a home-like environment to a center like home. I happen to feel like that change was initiated by us, and seeing what clients in our area were looking for, and how to be the "best" locally, and demand the higher rates in our area.

How difficult was it to find clients/get started? Not horribly difficult. Our house backed up to the local elementary school, and we were friendly with the school secretary, so our name was given out frequently.


Did you have licensing regulations? What was that like? Relaxed? Strict? Licensing regulations have pretty much stayed the same. Honestly, the biggest changes have been when we have a change in licensors. Their interpretation and implementation of the rules, are the biggest change. In 10 years we have had 4 licensors. In my state there were a couple issues of children dying from abuse in child care, so while only a few of the DHS regulations have changed, they have become very CYA about the licensing process/complaints process, so that IF that were to happen again - that no blame could fall back on them. They have changed a lot of background check regulations.

What about 20 years ago?
10 years ago?
5 years ago?

What are your thoughts on the changes in child development, child care philosophies and trends? I think the emphasis on daycare providers to take on parental responsibilities is very troublesome. I have some parents who work on nothing while at home with their child. They leave it up to daycare to work on manners, table manners, self-help skills, etc. I feel like this is caused by the increased demand for time at work, and a busier, more hectic life outside of work. Parents are so busy/preoccupied that they don't have/make the time to work on these things and then during the few hours a week they see their kids - they don't want to have to be the mean,strict,serious parent.

I also think the attitude that daycare is good for kids, is relatively new. That somehow the separation of parents and children is beneficial. We had one member here who had a relative say "My kids go to daycare, so that they can do their thing while we do ours". I feel like this attitude is really prevalent with my clients. I do think it is important that preschool children get exposure to adults other than their parents - but I don't think that the "socialization" that parents push all the time, is really that necessary. There are other ways to socialize your baby besides leaving them in daycare 50 hours a week. I think as a whole, this is a way to make parents feels less guilty about leaving a baby for 50 hours a week. I have a DCM who calls daycare school for her 8 month old. It makes it sound like you are doing something beneficial, instead of leaving your child.

STRONGLY agree with the bolded and this has been a difficult part of daycare for me. I have worked with some great families and overall, the experience has been positive. However, the number of parents that expect providers/teachers to parent their child is outrageous to me. They want the care there with meals and diapering and such but they also want a ton of other things that they could and should do themselves! they want to drop their kid off early, all meals at daycare, potty training, education, manners and social skills, and on and on and on. We should be a supplement not a replacement! I do not want to parent your children, they have parents. I can provide basic care while you are at work. I am not going to do all the hard work of raising a child for you, nor should I and if I do, YOU lose the joy and the relationship with your child that comes from those tasks. Its like parents dont want to do anything for their kid! Providers here have parents expecting the provider to bathe and clothe their child and provide sick care! Really?? what exactly is left for the parent to do? Why even take them home at night at all? Just send them to boarding school and go visit them when it is convenient and let someone else raise your kid and be done with it (sarcasm inserted here)