I Think I Have To Term My 'Favorite' DCK/Client. :(

[daycarediva]

Due to behavior.

She has some serious emotional issues, which she is in therapy for. She was aggressive towards the other children, out of the blue, when they didn't comply with her requests, who knew what would set her off. I had her shadowed for a few weeks. Then she became violent towards herself (head banging mostly), now she is randomly aggressive towards peers, me AND herself. She is also increasingly defiant. The behavioral therapist suggested getting her an animal to teach caring and empathy. Mom got her a cat. Now she is mean to the cat (I really felt like saying, duh!) they are rehoming it, but this week she was attempting to scratch and was hissing and growling at everyone. In addition to all of that, she throws these massive tantrums and screams at everyone, calls names, that sort of thing. I also NEVER know what would set this off, so there is no way for me to attempt to work on it. Yesterday it was outdoor play time. 40 minute outburst, had her picked up for refusal to participate. Today it was because we couldn't go outside (weather).

The therapist (I have his plan of action for dcg) suggested things that feasibly will work in a daycare setting. Giving her choices when possible, getting to her level and allowing her to have the emotion, but putting limits on the behavior. This is similar to what I do with the other kids, and they all have adjusted back from break and are behaving MUCH better. This is NOT helping dcg, and it has been since Thanksgiving break.

Pick ups are now a huge deal, but only half the time. We are doing bye bye outside.

The therapist specifically states that no big changes should be made. She has been here for the last 18m, so that would obviously be a big change. I just do NOT know how much more of this I can put up with.

All of my other dcks are kept safe, she has not hurt anyone. Mom is working with me and the therapist 100%, the trauma is VERY real, this isn't just a mean 3.5yo.

Prior to this, she was the sweetest, kindest, most polite and helpful child. It was really like a light switch. My entire family was shocked when I said I was considering terming her, they all adore her. My dd was home from school today (snow day) and was shocked. Her Mom is also my favorite client.

I have one child on a waiting list, so that is a non issue. I really do empathize with dcg and dcm, and it IS manageable, but not if it's getting WORSE!

WWYD?

[Leigh]

I suggest you start reading up on Oppositional Defiant Disorder and start working on a discipline plan tailored for this child.

Regardless of past trauma, the child is living in the NOW. Kids with ODD need lots of praise for good behaviors (if you ever see any!) and immediate negative consequences for bad behavior. I swear to you, that I have a kid who spent nearly all day in time-outs for 3 months (every time he was excused, he'd be right back in minutes). He was manipulative, vindictive, and very aggressive and violent. He finally has come around and is being more cooperative. His issue is that he was raised with NO discipline at all. Consequences must be followed through with for EVERY bad decision he makes. If they are not, then it makes him think that the POSSIBLE consequence is worth the risk of getting away with it even 1 in 1000 times.

Don't try to reason with a kid like this, don't respond to arguing or threats from the kid. Just calmly state the consequence and the offence. "You are going to time-out for hitting Megan". No matter how much arguing, do it EVERY.SINGLE.TIME, and don't let the child engage you. After the consequence, you can BRIEFLY discuss what should be done next time. Don't go into too much detail, because kids like this always try to rationalize their behavior (and often blame others, annoy others on purpose, etc.).

Really, these kinds of kids are the most difficult to be around. It's hard. It's also hard to give up. You can use amazon or google to find some good places to start. And, yes, work with the therapist, but be sure to tell the therapist about what works and what doesn't...reward systems don't work around here. Not any of the ones I have tried with this kid. I will not try another. This kid's BAD behavior is rewarded at home, and I think that may be part of the problem, but it's not just bad parenting (this kid was abused/neglected by bio-parents who he is no longer with), but also just plain genetics sometimes (this kid's entire family has been affected by emotional issues).

I wouldn't blame you for terming, I thought about it every day for the first 6 months this kid was here!

EDIT: WTH is wrong with the therapist suggesting that they get a pet for the kid to abuse?

[Angelsj]

She went through a traumatic event? If so, and she has not actually hurt anyone, I would continue to try and work with her. Would mom be willing to pay for an assistant to help you as she works all this through?

[daycarediva]

She loves animals, and does FANTASTIC with the cat I allow in the day care area (most laid back cat, ever).


she has not hurt anyone, because she is my shadow. I don't allow her to be away from my reach. From 7:30-5:30 she does not leave my side. Obviously, that alone is exhausting. She is more work than a newborn. ::


The therapist told Mom he doesn't want to diagnose ODD (symptoms fit to a T) because none of this behavior was present before the incident (abuse by father when the court removed supervised visitation) The therapy is court ordered. She had never been in TO here before, EVER and then within the first hour coming back from Dad's house, I had called Mom to pick up. THAT drastic of a change.

Mom is a single Mom and barely manages to pay me. She is barely above the cut off for child care assistance, no way could she afford an assistant.

[Angelsj]

In the end, you have to do what you can handle. Shadowing a child for 10 hours a day would be exhausting. Kind of sounds like the state had a hand in creating this issue (allowing unsupervised visits) and maybe they need to be pitching in to help solve the problem.

I am no expert, but I am pretty sure ODD is a more long term issue. I would think this would more fall into the PTSD area. If she was abused before, then had a long period of safety (for her, I know she is only three) then abused again, she is probably feeling very betrayed by ALL the adults in her life, even though you and her mom had nothing to do with it. Poor kiddo.

[Leigh]

ODD techniques work well for children even WITHOUT a diagnosis. This child still is displaying anger based defiance, from what I understand. It is VERY difficult as a parent or provider not to dwell on the past abuse rather than the present behavior, but that is not what the child needs. The child needs clear guidelines to feel safe. The child needs to know what will happen...consistency is even more important here. The "establishment" is very reluctant to diagnose ODD before age 6 or 7. That does not mean that it doesn't exist.

My understanding is that ODD is more common in kids with past trauma (neglect, abuse, separation from parents, etc.). It may not be to that point yet that it is able to be diagnosed. It may not be ODD at all. However, the child needs limits and predictable consequences for your sanity and hers. It will make her feel safer. If you wish to continue to provide care for this child, I would continue to work with the therapist (and invite the therapist into your home during daycare hours, as well), and find the will to enforce rules with immediate and consistent consequences.

[countrymom]

hmm, I think this girl needs a reality check. Trauma or not, there is no reason for her to wake up one morning and to be that violent towards anyone. I have a stinkin suspicion that she also rules the roast because at her age, its very common. The single mom excuse is just that, an excuse. Sometimes therapists are just funny.

I like the post above. Lay it all out for the girl. I would not give her choices, that to me is a joke, its like those who tell me I should reason with a 3 yr old, ya right. I would also not allow her near animals, to me thats being just silly.

I think maybe nannyde can chime in and give some ideas. But you can't shadow a child all day.

[daycarediva]

ODD techniques work well for children even WITHOUT a diagnosis. This child still is displaying anger based defiance, from what I understand. It is VERY difficult as a parent or provider not to dwell on the past abuse rather than the present behavior, but that is not what the child needs. The child needs clear guidelines to feel safe. The child needs to know what will happen...consistency is even more important here. The "establishment" is very reluctant to diagnose ODD before age 6 or 7. That does not mean that it doesn't exist.

My understanding is that ODD is more common in kids with past trauma (neglect, abuse, separation from parents, etc.). It may not be to that point yet that it is able to be diagnosed. It may not be ODD at all. However, the child needs limits and predictable consequences for your sanity and hers. It will make her feel safer. If you wish to continue to provide care for this child, I would continue to work with the therapist (and invite the therapist into your home during daycare hours, as well), and find the will to enforce rules with immediate and consistent consequences.

I will look up the techniques and see if we can have a meeting (Mom, therapist and I) seeing as we are the ONLY adults in dcg's life right now. Thank you for the suggestions!!!

hmm, I think this girl needs a reality check. Trauma or not, there is no reason for her to wake up one morning and to be that violent towards anyone. I have a stinkin suspicion that she also rules the roast because at her age, its very common. The single mom excuse is just that, an excuse. Sometimes therapists are just funny.

I like the post above. Lay it all out for the girl. I would not give her choices, that to me is a joke, its like those who tell me I should reason with a 3 yr old, ya right. I would also not allow her near animals, to me thats being just silly.

I think maybe nannyde can chime in and give some ideas. But you can't shadow a child all day.

She absolutely does not rule. There is a reason this is my favorite dcm. Dcm is in charge, and is one awesome single Mom. I have seen her on more than one occasion set a limit for dcg and tell her the consequence, and then IMMEDIATELY enforce it. She has put dcg in TO in my entry way when she refused to dress herself. Dcm did this in front of other parents and kids, and didn't bat an eye. This is the single Mom who does not party or spend money on herself, always pays me in full and on time, follows every policy I have, paid me for days off when I was sick even though it wasn't contracted and told me "you deserve to rest and my days off were paid, so are yours." gave me a very thoughtful Christmas gift (Pizza box with gift card for pizza, redbox movie gift card, movie theater candy, popcorn, and 6 pack of soda). Picks up on time or early, spends every spare minute with dcg, keeps her home even though she pays for the day when she is off, etc. She is a GOLDEN parent and until this incident, dcg was a gem. My whole family just adores her.

[daycarediva]

Also, Mom is calling everyone she can think of to get help for me. She said that the therapist is referring them to a local office for special needs children, and if they approve the therapists letter, they will pay to have someone come in and 1:1 with dcg. It's a temporary thing (and therefor a temporary solution) but it would be something!

I did tell dcm that I could not continue as is.


Dcg was abused initially before starting care with me, over 18m ago. Her father spent time in jail for it, and then they ordered supervised visitation. Well, the lady recommended that he have unsupervised visitation, and dcm was threatened with jail time if she ignored the court order to drop dcg off with him. Now here we are.

FYI- this is NOT sexual abuse, but physical and emotional. Dcd did things like lock her in a closet when she cried, smack her hard enough to leave welts for days for accidents, call her names, bruising (obvious hand imprints) from restraining her. THESE are the things dcg is reenacting. The therapist also suggested allowing her to beat up a soft doll, so Mom brought one to leave here today. I was able to safely separate dcg, but she literally punched, spit on, slapped, kicked, hit, bit, and called names to that doll every minute she was with it. It broke my heart!!!!!!!!!! There were MUCH fewer incidents today.

[Angelsj]

Also, Mom is calling everyone she can think of to get help for me. She said that the therapist is referring them to a local office for special needs children, and if they approve the therapists letter, they will pay to have someone come in and 1:1 with dcg. It's a temporary thing (and therefor a temporary solution) but it would be something!

I did tell dcm that I could not continue as is.


Dcg was abused initially before starting care with me, over 18m ago. Her father spent time in jail for it, and then they ordered supervised visitation. Well, the lady recommended that he have unsupervised visitation, and dcm was threatened with jail time if she ignored the court order to drop dcg off with him. Now here we are.

FYI- this is NOT sexual abuse, but physical and emotional. Dcd did things like lock her in a closet when she cried, smack her hard enough to leave welts for days for accidents, call her names, bruising (obvious hand imprints) from restraining her. THESE are the things dcg is reenacting. The therapist also suggested allowing her to beat up a soft doll, so Mom brought one to leave here today. I was able to safely separate dcg, but she literally punched, spit on, slapped, kicked, hit, bit, and called names to that doll every minute she was with it. It broke my heart!!!!!!!!!! There were MUCH fewer incidents today.

Good heavens. Poor kid. I would get her a doll that looked like man!!! Let her kick the crap outta that!

[Heidi]

So sad...

Maybe you could have a heart-to-heart with mom, and tell her that you'd like to give it a month, then sit down again? Can you do that? I think you need to be able to be completely honest with mom, for your sake and theirs. But, if you can give her a little more time, it would be a great kindness.

A month is a long time in 3 year old time. With the excitement of the holdays; the changes in diet and schedule and consistency messed with all my kiddos, and they didn't have a major incident like that right before it. Her coming to you consistently, being safe and loved will help her heal. I KNOW it's technically not your job, but I also KNOW that kid; the one who is special somehow to not just you but your family. Mine moved to California this summer (he'd just turned 3, too) and our whole family misses the little dude. Had he been in your kiddos shoes, I would have gone to great lengths to keep him as well.

[AngiesCareXYZ]

I hope that the sperm donor is in jail. I wish very ill will towards him. I think the man doll is what i need right now. I feel super angry at this thing called a "man".
I feel so sad for that little girl. I wish that I could help you out in some way. Do you live in Orange County CA by chance? I can come help out as a volunteer a couple hrs a week? My son has ODD. I know the turmoil and sleepless nights. I feel so bad for the mom. I remember when the judge told me that my son had to go with his father so many night per week. (there was no abuse to my son. There was neglect and horrible talk about me to my son by his father). It is really hard to stay focused for so many hours in a day without a break. I think I would only be able to do it if i was forced to. I am so sorry for you and that poor little baby girl and her awesome mom. I hope that you find the strength and courage to do what you need to without feeling guilt or remorse. :hug::hug::hug:

[daycarediva]

So sad...

Maybe you could have a heart-to-heart with mom, and tell her that you'd like to give it a month, then sit down again? Can you do that? I think you need to be able to be completely honest with mom, for your sake and theirs. But, if you can give her a little more time, it would be a great kindness.

A month is a long time in 3 year old time. With the excitement of the holdays; the changes in diet and schedule and consistency messed with all my kiddos, and they didn't have a major incident like that right before it. Her coming to you consistently, being safe and loved will help her heal. I KNOW it's technically not your job, but I also KNOW that kid; the one who is special somehow to not just you but your family. Mine moved to California this summer (he'd just turned 3, too) and our whole family misses the little dude. Had he been in your kiddos shoes, I would have gone to great lengths to keep him as well.

That is exactly how I feel about her. I really do (and my whole family as well) just LOVES her. She has weaseled her way into all of our hearts. Stinker.

We are going to do everything possible to make it work. DD has volunteered to help after school (from 3:30-5:30) which is a HUGE help as that is p/u times and keeping her near me when I am away from the group is tricky. Dh has offered to help at breakfast before work, and already does at lunch. The ARC people said it's just a matter of time before they approve the 1:1 and I have contacted licensing to see what I need to do to make that happen. If so, the helper will come from 9-1 M-F. We can help dcg AND keep everyone on schedule and safe. Phew.

I hope that the sperm donor is in jail. I wish very ill will towards him. I think the man doll is what i need right now. I feel super angry at this thing called a "man".
I feel so sad for that little girl. I wish that I could help you out in some way. Do you live in Orange County CA by chance? I can come help out as a volunteer a couple hrs a week? My son has ODD. I know the turmoil and sleepless nights. I feel so bad for the mom. I remember when the judge told me that my son had to go with his father so many night per week. (there was no abuse to my son. There was neglect and horrible talk about me to my son by his father). It is really hard to stay focused for so many hours in a day without a break. I think I would only be able to do it if i was forced to. I am so sorry for you and that poor little baby girl and her awesome mom. I hope that you find the strength and courage to do what you need to without feeling guilt or remorse. :hug::hug::hug:

Thank you! I am in NY, and his court appearance is pending. I may break my rule and testify to the behavioral issues between before and after if the subpoena (sp?) me.

Yesterday was a good day. No hitting or attempts to hit people (that poor doll, however....) speaking of dolls, my YDS GAVE HER his WWE stuffed wrestling guy he got for Christmas. So, now she is hitting a stuffed guy.

[Heidi]

That is exactly how I feel about her. I really do (and my whole family as well) just LOVES her. She has weaseled her way into all of our hearts. Stinker.

We are going to do everything possible to make it work. DD has volunteered to help after school (from 3:30-5:30) which is a HUGE help as that is p/u times and keeping her near me when I am away from the group is tricky. Dh has offered to help at breakfast before work, and already does at lunch. The ARC people said it's just a matter of time before they approve the 1:1 and I have contacted licensing to see what I need to do to make that happen. If so, the helper will come from 9-1 M-F. We can help dcg AND keep everyone on schedule and safe. Phew.



Thank you! I am in NY, and his court appearance is pending. I may break my rule and testify to the behavioral issues between before and after if the subpoena (sp?) me.

Yesterday was a good day. No hitting or attempts to hit people (that poor doll, however....) speaking of dolls, my YDS GAVE HER his WWE stuffed wrestling guy he got for Christmas. So, now she is hitting a stuffed guy.

awww. I like that idea, a lot. Hitting the doll seems so sad, but the WWF guy is "built" to be knocked around. The baby doll represents a baby, so, it seems a little confusing to give her that to beat the crap out of, kwim? Plus, WWF guy is a great voodoo doll for her dad.

Under other circumstances, I am not a fan of the whole "punch a pillow (or other object) when you're angry. While expressing your feelings is important, I'm not sure why a typical child really NEEDS to be so angry? I'm thinking of my former dcb, who was always mad about something. Now, in her case, it's a whole different thing, though.

[mia]

Poor thing... I myself would try my hardest to keep the child for the simple fact that you would be the most safest calm consistent place to be.... for she probably feels mad at mom for allowing her to go to dads ....( not understanding mom had no choice )... I would say that if she stays away from dad for a very long time that hopefully the pain and hurt will lesson and the behavior would start to go back to some what normal state for her....

As for the ODD, I'm unsure that, that is even what she has .... My son has ODD and he has not shown this type of behavior.... he would yell, argue, scream, brake the odd thing but never do half of what this little girl is doing or for this long of time..... :hug::hug:

From my experience.... I would possible look more into the other possible types of abuse.... I'd say she is trying to get her frustrations out on what has and is still probably happening to her .... and it may not help that she has a male therapist ( even though he may be a good one ).....

I was told by a Doctor that they can not truly diagnose any disorder such as ( ODD, ADD, ADHD, ect ) until the child is around or older then the age 8....

My heart is breaking for that little girl, you and the mom......

Best of luck to you all.....
:hug: