How Would You Handle This Baby's Sleep?

[Heidi]

At one point, I had the little guy taking two naps. He arrives at 7:00 (usually up at 6:15). By 7:30, he'd meltdown. So, I'd put him down for nap, and he'd wake up at 8:40 or so. Have a bottle, and then by 11 is was in major meltdown again (just as it's time for me to make lunch). Still, we'd get over the hump, have lunch at 11:30 (like everyone else), and he'd be happy as a clam until noon or so. Then, everyone for a nap 12-3. I'd usually have to go replace the pacifier once or twice, but he'd generally sleep otherwise.

Because he started escalating the pacifier spitting, I got rid of it. After a few days, he just went to sleep without it (yes, CIO, but that's pretty much what was happening no matter what).

Thanksgiving, mom takes him on vacation for a week, and gives him the pacifier back. Didn't tell me, but when I layed him down without it and he screamed his head off for 20 minutes, I asked. Oh, yeah...I gave it back, but you can wean him off if you want. Yay! I get to do the work twice. Returned pacifier several times, and I'd usually get 1 1/2 hours of actual sleeping out of him.

The last few weeks have been hub-bub because of the holidays, shortened days, days off, etc. So, I decided it was a bad time to try anything. He has been sleeping 45 minutes in the am (now 9:00-9:45), screaming most of the morning unless held, and then trying to get up from afternoon nap every 45 minutes. Put him in bed, and he screams like someone is seriously trying to kill him, and spits out pacifier. He has soft "soundscapes" music, his blanket (an afghan he can breath through easily, and he pulls it over his face).

Yesterday, he woke up every 20 minutes during nap. In the morning, he went back to sleep and slept 40 after I made 2 trips in there. In the afternoon, he slept 20 minutes 2 times in 3 hours. His older brother was here and I was not comfortable with CIO for that reason alone. So now, he's expecting intervention every 20 minutes, and it takes me 20 to get him to sleep in the first place.


Your thoughts?

1. Ditch the binky altogether? CIO, or too early? Is expecting him to sleep even a couple hours without intervention unreasonable? I don't even know any more! I have never had a baby this tough in my life.

2. 6 month old; doesn't play well alone AT ALL. If I let him go by his own schedule, I will be spending my whole nap time with him on my lap to keep him quiet enough so others can sleep. Put him on the floor almost always means screaming after MAYBE 10 minutes.

3. I've had him in the car, and he falls asleep in 13 seconds. Mom runs around a lot when she has him. Definately contributing to the issue, but she's alone so it is what it is. No one to stay behind while she goes grocery shopping, etc.

I'm not asking if I should term. That option is on the table, but with no other calls coming in, unlikely. I'm asking what YOU think is a reasonable expectation for baby, and how you would handle it.

[Shell]

Ugh, that's rough! Dcm is making your job that much more difficult by giving back the pacifier, and other things. The fact that this baby needs some kind of intervention every 20 mins or so tells me that someone (mom, gma, whoever) that was with this baby over vacation, has been feeding, holding, rocking, whatever to get the child back to sleep, and baby can't self soothe and fall asleep without help.
My only advice is to give it some time-try one of your methods for a few days, and alternate if it isn't getting anywhere. Parents really set us back sometimes, and with a baby that young, dcm is just making things more difficult. How nice of her to tell you that you can wean from the pacifier (again)-yeah, like that's easy!

[MarinaVanessa]

DCM needs to get on board with the program. You CAN do it without her help but it'll be that much more difficult on the baby. I have a suggestion but seeing as to you don't want to terminate the client you aren't going to like it.

I would be calling DCM at work every time he cried ("screams like someone is seriously trying to kill him") so that she can hear him. I'd be near him so that she can clearly see how unhappy and how loud he is and I'd let her know how long he has been crying and ask that he be picked up. I'd make it clear that this has been happening ever since Thanksgiving and that you see no improvement.

Ask that she work on it at home by not holding him and weening him off the pacifier at home and that you will SUPPORT her efforts but that the bulk of the work needs to be done by her and DCD. She will not like that and will probably say something along the lines of how difficult it will be to get things done at home etc. to which I would reply with "I have [x amount] other children to care for here and the baby is taking up X% of my time during the day. I need to think about the needs of the group as a whole" She will probably not like that either to which I would ask her what SHE would like me to do each time that he cried that way.

"What do you recommend that I do when he cries like that and I am changing another diaper, preparing meals or otherwise with the other children?"
Put the problem and the work of finding a solution in her court.
&
"So how long is it okay for him to cry like that before you consider it long enough that I need to call you?"

She will either work on it at home at that point or start looking for daycare somewhere else at a place that can give him more attention.

Sorry that it's been so difficult for you with this baby. These times are not fun

[daycare]

I dont do infant care, but I really like MV idea of calling mom so that she can hear what is going on.

As we all know, parents will do what works for them no matter what. They don't want to hear the crying, so they will just give in to cut the crying short. Which we know will only prolong the issue later and make more issues for us. Trust me when I say that parents are NOT thinking about us when they are sitting at home with a crying kid. They are doing what they want and need to do for them so that they can get on with their day.

I do find that sitting down and talking with the parent and letting them know that since the vacation time and all of the inconsistency with mom doing things one way and you having to do them another it is creating a huge confusion for the baby.

I know you don't want to term, but I think you do need to let the DCM know that if she can't help you to get baby on a set schedule and routine, then baby will never make the necessary adjustment.

Also, wanted to ask you, is the baby full time 5 days a week??

[cheerfuldom]

If you have to keep him, I would put him back on two long naps per day, tuck him in without a pacifier and thats that. Check on him but no intervention. If mom is not comfortable with CIO at daycare she needs to find a provider that can put up with his demands. at this point, I don't see that you have any other choice based one what you are describing. He doesn't have a routine, he falls asleep due to motion, he is sleep deprived and cannot handle independent play. Either you can put up with the crying long term to get him back on schedule or you need to just let him go. Perhaps threatening to term will force mom on your side but it may backfire and she leave anyway. Really, unless your family is going to starve without the income, I would suggest just terming. Even if you can get him back on track, it will likely be a long process with no support from mom. He may cry till he is one year old

[Cradle2crayons]

DCM needs to get on board with the program. You CAN do it without her help but it'll be that much more difficult on the baby. I have a suggestion but seeing as to you don't want to terminate the client you aren't going to like it.

I would be calling DCM at work every time he cried ("screams like someone is seriously trying to kill him") so that she can hear him. I'd be near him so that she can clearly see how unhappy and how loud he is and I'd let her know how long he has been crying and ask that he be picked up. I'd make it clear that this has been happening ever since Thanksgiving and that you see no improvement.

Ask that she work on it at home by not holding him and weening him off the pacifier at home and that you will SUPPORT her efforts but that the bulk of the work needs to be done by her and DCD. She will not like that and will probably say something along the lines of how difficult it will be to get things done at home etc. to which I would reply with "I have [x amount] other children to care for here and the baby is taking up X% of my time during the day. I need to think about the needs of the group as a whole" She will probably not like that either to which I would ask her what SHE would like me to do each time that he cried that way.

"What do you recommend that I do when he cries like that and I am changing another diaper, preparing meals or otherwise with the other children?"
Put the problem and the work of finding a solution in her court.
&
"So how long is it okay for him to cry like that before you consider it long enough that I need to call you?"

She will either work on it at home at that point or start looking for daycare somewhere else at a place that can give him more attention.

Sorry that it's been so difficult for you with this baby. These times are not fun

lots of great ideas. In my experience, parents are ONLY going to get on board if they are like her, if you put the problem AND solution on THEM.

[Heidi]

This is the kiddo who's birth I was at (I was the coach). Obviously, mom being my friend complicates things.

I have been trying all along to get her to understand that this is group care, not nanny care, not mommy one-on-one. She tends to be very stubborn and I honestly think she doesn't understand because she doesn't want to.

Complicating matters is that my best (and currently only) sub is both our former dcp; and she never took babies when she did daycare. So, when I've talked about it to mom, I believe she went back and told mom, but sugar-coated the problem. Meaning, I don't think sub really gets it, either. When she's been here, he woke up all the kids early and she just got them up. Okay for her for ONE day, but not a habit I want to be in day after day, KWIM? I am training a new sub, but it will be a while before I can really leave her alone with the kiddos.

Our state regulations actually say that infants AND toddlers eating and sleeping patterns will be accommodated. I do not know ONE provider who doesn't try to get all the kids on the same pattern as soon as they can, though. Of course, if anyone asks...

and, that is the last problem. If I gave her an ultimatum or she went anywhere else, of COURSE, all the centers (if they had openings) would say "oh, yes, of COURSE, we will let him sleep and eat on demand!" They'd be lying through their teeth, for the most part. She'd honestly end up with one of the 5 or 6 illegal providers around here who'll lie and say he's an angel while in reality he screams endlessly. Some have 10 or 15 kids, and home-school on top of that. They'll have a handy 12 year old schlep him around for a while, if he gets on their nerves.

I love this little guy, I really do. I just think he is getting more and MORE miserable because he has no self-soothing skills whatsoever, and he thinks he NEEDS to be held or talked to or bounced or walked or played with every minute. He gets a little better, a little more independent, and then a weekend or a holiday comes and it's back to start.

What he NEEDS is to be on the floor most of his waking hours. He needs to learn to roll from front to back, to sit up, and to crawl. I suspect he'll be somewhat happier when he can move himself. But, in order to do that, he needs make friends with gravity.

Sorry this is so long. I've been dealing with this for 4 1/2 months now, and by now I thought we would have worked through it. Alsol, I've termed 3 families in the last 3 years. More than in the 12 years I did daycare before! Ironically, the pickins are much slimmer now than back then (I used to live in a large city), and every kid I term, I risk getting a reputation for being unprofessional because I can't "handle" kids. I termed the others for good reason, but I don't really want to get that reputation in my rural, sparsely populated county. So, that adds to my reluctance, KWIM?

So, I think it's back to CIO without a pacifier, and we start over. Naps 2x a day, when the others nap (one hour in am, minimum 2 in afternoon). White noise, consistent pre-nap routine, and consistent "it's time to get up" routine. Keep mouth shut when it comes to mom, and keep my ears open for possible replacements.

Oh, to further complicate things, I also have a 25 mo who recently transitioned to a mat. Keeping him on it has been a major battle, some days worse than others. Baby's screaming woke HIM up early on Friday, and then I had TWO awake. One screaming, the other refusing to stay on his mat. NOT FUN!

[daycare]

This is the kiddo who's birth I was at (I was the coach). Obviously, mom being my friend complicates things.

I have been trying all along to get her to understand that this is group care, not nanny care, not mommy one-on-one. She tends to be very stubborn and I honestly think she doesn't understand because she doesn't want to.

Complicating matters is that my best (and currently only) sub is both our former dcp; and she never took babies when she did daycare. So, when I've talked about it to mom, I believe she went back and told mom, but sugar-coated the problem. Meaning, I don't think sub really gets it, either. When she's been here, he woke up all the kids early and she just got them up. Okay for her for ONE day, but not a habit I want to be in day after day, KWIM? I am training a new sub, but it will be a while before I can really leave her alone with the kiddos.

Our state regulations actually say that infants AND toddlers eating and sleeping patterns will be accommodated. I do not know ONE provider who doesn't try to get all the kids on the same pattern as soon as they can, though. Of course, if anyone asks...

and, that is the last problem. If I gave her an ultimatum or she went anywhere else, of COURSE, all the centers (if they had openings) would say "oh, yes, of COURSE, we will let him sleep and eat on demand!" They'd be lying through their teeth, for the most part. She'd honestly end up with one of the 5 or 6 illegal providers around here who'll lie and say he's an angel while in reality he screams endlessly. Some have 10 or 15 kids, and home-school on top of that. They'll have a handy 12 year old schlep him around for a while, if he gets on their nerves.

I love this little guy, I really do. I just think he is getting more and MORE miserable because he has no self-soothing skills whatsoever, and he thinks he NEEDS to be held or talked to or bounced or walked or played with every minute. He gets a little better, a little more independent, and then a weekend or a holiday comes and it's back to start.

What he NEEDS is to be on the floor most of his waking hours. He needs to learn to roll from front to back, to sit up, and to crawl. I suspect he'll be somewhat happier when he can move himself. But, in order to do that, he needs make friends with gravity.

Sorry this is so long. I've been dealing with this for 4 1/2 months now, and by now I thought we would have worked through it. Alsol, I've termed 3 families in the last 3 years. More than in the 12 years I did daycare before! Ironically, the pickins are much slimmer now than back then (I used to live in a large city), and every kid I term, I risk getting a reputation for being unprofessional because I can't "handle" kids. I termed the others for good reason, but I don't really want to get that reputation in my rural, sparsely populated county. So, that adds to my reluctance, KWIM?

So, I think it's back to CIO without a pacifier, and we start over. Naps 2x a day, when the others nap (one hour in am, minimum 2 in afternoon). White noise, consistent pre-nap routine, and consistent "it's time to get up" routine. Keep mouth shut when it comes to mom, and keep my ears open for possible replacements.

Oh, to further complicate things, I also have a 25 mo who recently transitioned to a mat. Keeping him on it has been a major battle, some days worse than others. Baby's screaming woke HIM up early on Friday, and then I had TWO awake. One screaming, the other refusing to stay on his mat. NOT FUN!

I think that you need to tell DCM This..

I just think he is getting more and MORE miserable because he has no self-soothing skills whatsoever, and he thinks he NEEDS to be held or talked to or bounced or walked or played with every minute. He gets a little better, a little more independent, and then a weekend or a holiday comes and it's back to start.

I would just say:

mary, there is nothing I want more for my dcks than for them to be happy when they are here. DCB was doing great before the holidays and since then, he has just been all over the place and he seems pretty miserable. I was hoping that after the new year that we could tag team a plan of action to get him back on a good routine. I believe that working together we can create a routine that will work for everyone, especially for baby. Let me know when you can sit and talk.....

I bet it must be hard being that DCM is your friend. I too am having a hard time getting DCks. I know how hard it is to have to work through things that feel horrible.

I think the first step here is talking to DCM, then set an agreed routine/schedule and go from there. Keep the lines of communication open and don't be afraid to talk with her just because you guys are friends.


good luck...

[MyAngels]

I have been trying all along to get her to understand that this is group care, not nanny care, not mommy one-on-one. She tends to be very stubborn and I honestly think she doesn't understand because she doesn't want to.

I do a lot of infant care and I've been in this situation more than once. I've learned that you cannot really get parents to truly understand the concept involved in group care. I've pretty much stopped even trying. What I can do is implement my own routines and schedules, stay consistent with it, and eventually it sticks. Some take a little longer than others, but eventually they do get it. When it gets tough, I remind myself that they will outgrow it - eventually

So, I think it's back to CIO without a pacifier, and we start over. Naps 2x a day, when the others nap (one hour in am, minimum 2 in afternoon). White noise, consistent pre-nap routine, and consistent "it's time to get up" routine. Keep mouth shut when it comes to mom, and keep my ears open for possible replacements.

I think you're on the right track with this thinking. I know it's tough, but sooner or later you're going to end up with a great kid

[Rachel]

I don't know what to say except a 6 month old is a baby. It's maddening sometimes, but it is what it is. None of my babies have ever slept a 3 hour stretch. I have a 12 month old now who sleeps for 15 - 45 minutes with the group and wakes up screaming. Every. single. day. It's maddening, but there is no where else to put him so I take him out as quick as I can, give a bottle, and try to get him down again. Usually he's up, but not always (this kid naps once. Won't go down in the morning at all anymore).

I can sympathize, but I think when watching babies you just can't expect you are going to get a 3 hour break every day. I try to get them on a schedule close to 1, but even then it depends on the kid. My kids are now between 10 & 20 months and if I get an hour where everyone is sleeping it's a GREAT day.

[Heidi]

I don't know what to say except a 6 month old is a baby. It's maddening sometimes, but it is what it is. None of my babies have ever slept a 3 hour stretch. I have a 12 month old now who sleeps for 15 - 45 minutes with the group and wakes up screaming. Every. single. day. It's maddening, but there is no where else to put him so I take him out as quick as I can, give a bottle, and try to get him down again. Usually he's up, but not always (this kid naps once. Won't go down in the morning at all anymore).

I can sympathize, but I think when watching babies you just can't expect you are going to get a 3 hour break every day. I try to get them on a schedule close to 1, but even then it depends on the kid. My kids are now between 10 & 20 months and if I get an hour where everyone is sleeping it's a GREAT day.

In 13 years of daycare and 24 of motherhood, it's a rare exception for me that they DON'T get on this schedule. It's usually a pretty gentle process, and I do honor their needs. It's more of a "nudge" towards the group schedule than a negative process.

It's not about a "3 hour break". It's about time to clean up lunch, eat mine, take a short break, do paperwork, and keep the house relatively quiet so that everyone else can sleep. If one's up and needing to be entertained, then everyone is up, wanting to be entertained. By pick-up time, I'd be sending home crabby kiddos who can't make it until bedtime. My other families are awesome; and they love spending time with their kiddos. Putting them to bed at 7:00 because their crabby would be a huge disappointment to them.

How is it really different than expecting him to sleep a stretch at night? I know for a fact that if he's up at 1 am, mom is not going to get him up and play with him just because he want to. Most people wouldn't say that's ok...he's a baby (I say most because I have known people who do party with their kids in the middle of the night).

I know you weren't picking on me, .

I think the thing that concerns me is that nothing has changed in 4 1/2 months. He was just as "needy" on Tuesday as in August when he started. In all this time, he has not developed a routine, or the ability to entertain himself or self-soothe for short periods. It's 2 steps forward, 2 steps back.

When he started here, my now 1-year olds were almost the same age he is now. They had to wait for things because he was the littlest, and so he got first response. Now, almost 5 months later, they are STILL always waiting because he is the "squeeky wheel". 1 child of 4 taking 75% of the effort. KWIM?

[Rachel]

No I wasn't picking on you. I know it. I was actually talking to someone today who did daycare for 15+ years. She said in that time, she also had one like the one I had. I didn't think you were locking the poor kid in a room and closing the door and not coming out for 3 hours, just saying that a 6 month old is still very much a baby, and if he wakes up after 1.5 hours (having slept), it's not about self soothing, it's about that's how long he slept. Or if he got up early one day, or had a longer morning nap, or whatever you can't make him sleep.

It's different than at night because naps are supposed to be shorter. A normal morning nap is anywhere from 45 minutes to 1.5 hours. A normal afternoon nap is an hour to 3. If he goes to bed, sleeps, and wakes up after an hour and 15 minutes it's not a matter of self soothing, it might be that was all the sleep he needed. I get you about setup. I have a bad one too for kids who don't sleep together. One open room and an alcove (they sleep in the alcove, 5 of them, so if one gets up it's sketchy to let the other 4 sleep).

I know it's hard. In a few months he'll be older more able to put on a schedule. But I think we providers sometimes forget that babies are just babies, and part of watching them is realizing sometimes for a short time period (weeks or months), we grown ups have to adapt.

[craftymissbeth]

No I wasn't picking on you. I know it. I was actually talking to someone today who did daycare for 15+ years. She said in that time, she also had one like the one I had. I didn't think you were locking the poor kid in a room and closing the door and not coming out for 3 hours, just saying that a 6 month old is still very much a baby, and if he wakes up after 1.5 hours (having slept), it's not about self soothing, it's about that's how long he slept. Or if he got up early one day, or had a longer morning nap, or whatever you can't make him sleep.

It's different than at night because naps are supposed to be shorter. A normal morning nap is anywhere from 45 minutes to 1.5 hours. A normal afternoon nap is an hour to 3. If he goes to bed, sleeps, and wakes up after an hour and 15 minutes it's not a matter of self soothing, it might be that was all the sleep he needed. I get you about setup. I have a bad one too for kids who don't sleep together. One open room and an alcove (they sleep in the alcove, 5 of them, so if one gets up it's sketchy to let the other 4 sleep).

I know it's hard. In a few months he'll be older more able to put on a schedule. But I think we providers sometimes forget that babies are just babies, and part of watching them is realizing sometimes for a short time period (weeks or months), we grown ups have to adapt.

I agree with you to a point about adapting, but if I've read her posts correctly, Heidi's dcb is screaming at times other than naps... which is NOT "normal" and is not something one should have to adapt to. Something is going on that is causing his screaming and she knows dcm personally so she knows what it is... dcm.

A 6 month old is perfectly capable of adapting to a routine/schedule. They're certainly on the way out of the "baby stage" and definitely nothing like an itty bitty 0-3 month old, kwim? I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a 6 month old to self-soothe both during nap times and during play time.

[Heidi]

I agree with you to a point about adapting, but if I've read her posts correctly, Heidi's dcb is screaming at times other than naps... which is NOT "normal" and is not something one should have to adapt to. Something is going on that is causing his screaming and she knows dcm personally so she knows what it is... dcm.

A 6 month old is perfectly capable of adapting to a routine/schedule. They're certainly on the way out of the "baby stage" and definitely nothing like an itty bitty 0-3 month old, kwim? I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a 6 month old to self-soothe both during nap times and during play time.

yes...this

It's not that he needs to take a 3 hour nap. It's that:

1) he wakes up every 45 minutes (this week, 20 minutes) and needs to be "messed with" to go back to sleep and then sometimes doesn't. That's not even a sleep cycle, and at 45 minutes, it's one sleep cycle....so he's not self-soothing at all. He fell asleep after screaming because he was just exhausted, then woke up screaming but had enough sleep to rouse, but not be rested. It's a nasty cycle. Putting him in motion in a carseat (car rides running around) hypnotizes him to catnap again and again. Still not good, deep sleep in a bed. At home, if he sleeps 45 minutes, she just gets him up, and an hour later, he needs another nap and she puts him back down. So the sleep-play-eat cycle is really short. A 6 month old should not need to catnap every 1- 1 1/2 hours. He really should be able to be awake 2 1/2-3 hours at a stretch, and then take longer naps of 1.5-3 hours. Honestly, I could do the same thing, but I don't think it serves him. The temps here have been in the 0's and under, so going outside is not realistic. But, eventually, we WILL need to have outdoor time. I can't leave him inside while we go for a walk, or play in the yard. Well, I can with a monitor, technically, but don't really think leaving 3 toddlers in the yard while I run back and forth to put him down/get him up is going to work for any of us.

2) When he is awake, he wants constant attention. I've had him in a store with me (I do occasional weekend care for him not part of dc). He will actually growl at strangers (store clerks or other shoppers) until they notice him and say "oh, how cute..." It's cute, but it's also a little troubling. "look at me look at me look at me...PAY ATTENTION!" If he doesn't get a response, he'll go into meltdown mode. I'm glad he likes people, really, but come on! It's funny and ridiculous at the same time

He was sleeping through the night, but recently started waking in the wee hours for food again. He is in the 99th percentile for weight and close to that for height. He is a BIG boy. He does not need night feedings for his growth. I predict that this will get worse, not better. Just a hunch.

As for it being DCM"s fault...I guess that's not 100% what I'm saying. My main problem is that I don't think she buys into my expectations at all. I need her to try to work with me. Keep him up for 2 hours between naps, let him fuss a bit if he wakes after 45 minutes, stay home for a few weeks during "nap time", and PUT HIM ON THE FLOOR more. Yes, of course she can play with him. Put put him down periodically without interactions. Let him fuss and figure it out once in a while. Right now, I feel like that's all on me.

[Play Care]

Heidi, I know you've been having issues with this baby all along. You've said repeatedly that you don't want to term because you are worried about how another provider would handle it, etc.

But my thought is that rather then not be able to handle baby, may another provider might be just what baby/family needs? Maybe there needs to be a "degree of separation." My initial thought is that perhaps baby would thrive in a good center where there are multiple staff to give each other breaks throughout the day. I guess I've come to the point where I realize that my program may not be right for every child, and that doesn't mean I'm doing something "wrong" or the child is doing something "wrong." I kept a child years ago because I felt like if I termed I had "failed." I also loved this child and worried another provider wouldn't be as kind to her quirks/behavior, etc. In retrospect I wish I had let the child go - because maybe rather then coming here and butting heads with me each day, this child could have THRIVED with another provider. I assumed that because certain things bothered me, they would also be a hot button for another provider and they would struggle as well - and I've learned that we all have different hot buttons

I know that wasn't what you were looking for, but just something I've thought about when reading your posts about this infant.