Violence and Defiance in 3 year old

[MCC]

Hello again,

I need some advice on a 3 year old DCB I have here. He has been here for about 5 weeks, and we are having all sorts of issues with behavior. He is down right mean to the other children and to me. He can not handle any kind of discipline or injury with out a total meltdown. For example I will say "DCB lets be gently with the trains instead of throwing them" and then I'll show him gentle, and boom...Major meltdown, walks around the room crying and screaming pushing furniture, stomping his feet, etc... He hits me, the other children, and last week he spit in my face during a time out. He stands in front of toys so that other children can't play with them, and then cries when I tell him to move... the list goes on...

Two weeks after he started, I sat down with the parents together (they are divorced) and asked them to please set firmer limits at home and try to enforce more discipline that is consistent to what we have here. Nothing has changed, and it's been 3 weeks since then.

After the spitting last week, I told DCD that DCB had 2 weeks to straighten up, or off he went back to the center he was at, and DCD said "he can't go back to the center, he was kicked out" Um....I would have NEVER taken a child who was kicked out of a center had I known. When I asked during the interview why they were taking him out of the center, they said it was b/c they wanted a little less school/ more play than the preschool room was. He just turned 3, and was moved into the preschool room at the center. I can not believe they lied to me, but I guess they knew they would have trouble finding care if they didn't.

I was thinking about given them a letter with a violence policy, something like:

DCB gets 3 strikes and he has to go home. The third time he has to go home, he is termed. No refund etc...

I just don't think that the parents are taking this seriously at all, and they need too. I am now the second person telling them their son has extreme behavior issues. I asked them if they talked to the pedi about the behavior at daycare, and of course they did not. I am not convinced that there isn't a learning delay going on.

Thoughts? Am I being to harsh, not harsh enough? TIA!

[Play Care]

In my contract, lying is grounds for immediate termination. So that in and of itself would be sending them out the door. Add the dangerous behavior and I would say "see ya" without a second thought. Clearly they had no problem lying to you, so I wouldn't even lose sleep over it.

I am of the "I can't save the world" train of thought. It's not my job to take on every child that comes in, especially if the parents are not working with me.

[Angelsj]

I am pretty patient, even with fairly extreme behavior, but I draw the line at hurting the other kids.
I would not give this child three strikes in a day. First violent behavior that risks injury to you or the other children, call the parents, and require pick up.
If you put it in their lap, they will need to take it seriously.

[MCC]

In my contract, lying is grounds for immediate termination. So that in and of itself would be sending them out the door. Add the dangerous behavior and I would say "see ya" without a second thought. Clearly they had no problem lying to you, so I wouldn't even lose sleep over it.

I am of the "I can't save the world" train of thought. It's not my job to take on every child that comes in, especially if the parents are not working with me.

My initial thought was the term the day I found out they lied, but I termed another family that day, and thought maybe I needed to relax and think it through. Thanks for the advice.

[MCC]

I am pretty patient, even with fairly extreme behavior, but I draw the line at hurting the other kids.
I would not give this child three strikes in a day. First violent behavior that risks injury to you or the other children, call the parents, and require pick up.
If you put it in their lap, they will need to take it seriously.

Thanks. I guess my bigger question is, with him being 3, he should know better than to hit, right? I wouldn't send an 18 month old for hitting, but where do I set that age line?

[NeedaVaca]

If he is hurting the other DCK's then you very easily could lose them because of his behavior!I would rather term the violent DCB and keep the well behaved kids

[Play Care]

Thanks. I guess my bigger question is, with him being 3, he should know better than to hit, right? I wouldn't send an 18 month old for hitting, but where do I set that age line?

IME, a 3 yo can hit out of frustration or anger, but as their verbal skills increase, this becomes very rare. A "new" 3 yo is more likely to hit than an "old" one Add any language issues and it will increase the liklihood of hitting. Some might disagree, but 2 1/2 is my cutoff for "gentle" treatment of aggressive behaviors - I will redirect an 18 month old who hits, for example, because in my mind that's more my fault that I allowed it to get to that point (not always but usually by the time they do lash out there have been several warning signs ) But a 3 yo in my care who hits is treated more firmly. I have to say that those types of behaviors are very rare here, and I would not hesitate to term a child who brought them to me. I'm in a small town and don't want to get a rep for having the "biting" or "hitting" day care

[MCC]

IME, a 3 yo can hit out of frustration or anger, but as their verbal skills increase, this becomes very rare. A "new" 3 yo is more likely to hit than an "old" one Add any language issues and it will increase the liklihood of hitting. Some might disagree, but 2 1/2 is my cutoff for "gentle" treatment of aggressive behaviors - I will redirect an 18 month old who hits, for example, because in my mind that's more my fault that I allowed it to get to that point (not always but usually by the time they do lash out there have been several warning signs ) But a 3 yo in my care who hits is treated more firmly. I have to say that those types of behaviors are very rare here, and I would not hesitate to term a child who brought them to me. I'm in a small town and don't want to get a rep for having the "biting" or "hitting" day care

Thanks, I think 2 1/2 is a good age to set the limit. There are no other hitters here either, and I'm starting to see his behavior change my daughters behavior (she just turned 2). The last thing I want is for his naughtiness to change my child's behavior!

[cheerfuldom]

I would term. It was a problem at the old daycare, its a problem with you, the parents have done nothing.....nothing is going to change by giving this more time.

[countrymom]

lets look at this way, dcb hit you, so all the kids saw it, so now they are going to think that its ok to hit you and any adult they come in contact with, is this what you want.

and I would now call the other center and find out why he was termed and if the family caused any problems if you term them.

if he is so out of control you need to call for pick up, not fair to the other kids.

but this is where I would put him in time out and let him scream like crazy, today I am like glue with a dcb and its driving him crazy, but i can't let him get away with what he was doing. I would be like super glue on a kid that hit, he wants to stand infront of toys, remove him, he won't let kids play with toys remove him and give the kids the toys.

sounds like he rules the roost at him and he's getting away with alot.

[EntropyControlSpecialist]

I would term. It was a problem at the old daycare, its a problem with you, the parents have done nothing.....nothing is going to change by giving this more time.

Absolutely! Good luck.

[Heidi]

QUOTE=Play Care;338193]IME, a 3 yo can hit out of frustration or anger, but as their verbal skills increase, this becomes very rare. A "new" 3 yo is more likely to hit than an "old" one Add any language issues and it will increase the liklihood of hitting. Some might disagree, but 2 1/2 is my cutoff for "gentle" treatment of aggressive behaviors - I will redirect an 18 month old who hits, for example, because in my mind that's more my fault that I allowed it to get to that point (not always but usually by the time they do lash out there have been several warning signs ) But a 3 yo in my care who hits is treated more firmly.

I agree. A child that is still hitting, tantruming and spitting at anyone, especially adults, multiple times a day has an unmet need of some sort. Could be an emotional issue, could be a delay, lack of parental discipline; could be a lot of things. The fact that his parent lied, and that they are not willing to seek outside help is what would cause me to say "bye", not the child's behavior alone.

Please don't hang in there for his sake, because he is not getting the help he needs, and you don't have the resources you need. So, in the long run, you're only hurting the other kids and yourself, and he's not benefiting.

[rmc20021]

I once started a set of twins, a boy and girl who weren't quite 3 years old. The little girl was very timid and didn't speak at all. The little boy spoke very, very little was H.O.R.R.I.B.L.E.!!!

Fortunately my husband was off work at that time because it took one of us to focus entirely on the boy and try to catch him before he harmed any of the other kids.

If he saw a kid on a trike, he ran over to them and grabbed them by the throat trying to tear them off the trike. Any time he saw another kid heading in the direction of something to play with, he would grab them and push them out of the way so he could get to it first. He constantly took toys away from others. If I put him into time out, I had to stand behind him...very carefully as he would try to head butt me and. He screamed bloody murder every time I wouldn't let him do something to hurt another child.

After about two weeks of complete supervision by only one person, consistency he slowly began to come around, but I still had to watch for his next move.

We went on field trips ALLLLLL the time. Dcm made a comment one day telling me she and her husband had NEVER taken the twins any place in their lives...even to the grocery store. They had no clue how to behave.

Today, I see they are very, very successful adults in college and doing quite well...but when that boy was little, I was sure by his violent behaviors he was going to be a mass murderer or something.

[Heidi]

I once started a set of twins, a boy and girl who weren't quite 3 years old. The little girl was very timid and didn't speak at all. The little boy spoke very, very little was H.O.R.R.I.B.L.E.!!!

Fortunately my husband was off work at that time because it took one of us to focus entirely on the boy and try to catch him before he harmed any of the other kids.

If he saw a kid on a trike, he ran over to them and grabbed them by the throat trying to tear them off the trike. Any time he saw another kid heading in the direction of something to play with, he would grab them and push them out of the way so he could get to it first. He constantly took toys away from others. If I put him into time out, I had to stand behind him...very carefully as he would try to head butt me and. He screamed bloody murder every time I wouldn't let him do something to hurt another child.

After about two weeks of complete supervision by only one person, consistency he slowly began to come around, but I still had to watch for his next move.

We went on field trips ALLLLLL the time. Dcm made a comment one day telling me she and her husband had NEVER taken the twins any place in their lives...even to the grocery store. They had no clue how to behave.

Today, I see they are very, very successful adults in college and doing quite well...but when that boy was little, I was sure by his violent behaviors he was going to be a mass murderer or something.

Thank you for that hopeful story! :hug:

[MCC]

I once started a set of twins, a boy and girl who weren't quite 3 years old. The little girl was very timid and didn't speak at all. The little boy spoke very, very little was H.O.R.R.I.B.L.E.!!!

Fortunately my husband was off work at that time because it took one of us to focus entirely on the boy and try to catch him before he harmed any of the other kids.

If he saw a kid on a trike, he ran over to them and grabbed them by the throat trying to tear them off the trike. Any time he saw another kid heading in the direction of something to play with, he would grab them and push them out of the way so he could get to it first. He constantly took toys away from others. If I put him into time out, I had to stand behind him...very carefully as he would try to head butt me and. He screamed bloody murder every time I wouldn't let him do something to hurt another child.

After about two weeks of complete supervision by only one person, consistency he slowly began to come around, but I still had to watch for his next move.

We went on field trips ALLLLLL the time. Dcm made a comment one day telling me she and her husband had NEVER taken the twins any place in their lives...even to the grocery store. They had no clue how to behave.

Today, I see they are very, very successful adults in college and doing quite well...but when that boy was little, I was sure by his violent behaviors he was going to be a mass murderer or something.

Wow! That's intense! I'm glad to see that they are successful now!